geez, no wonder Utah is so ... meh

coolm

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FIFTEEN MILLION this year to Al Jefferson?

$8 million to Milsap? He does play well, but not $8 million well.

Marvin Williams for $8.2 million ... Mo Williams for $8.5 million ... they are strapped with some almost decent to mediocre to blech talent taking the bulk of the salary cap.

From the times I have watched them Jamaal Tinsley, Kanter, Randy Foye, Derrick Favors, and Earl Watson are by far the best players for the money that they have. Throw Hayward in there too although his defense isn't that stellar.

HORRIBLE spending. I am sure injuries have some to do with it, but this is rough. Will hafta say though that for a low salary team they are in the upper tier ... bottom of salaries but with record above .500.

On second thought Milsap is probably about right given the rest of the team and the year he's in. He's probably their MVP for the money.
 
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Your analysis is completely devoid of context, such as how they arrived at their current roster or realistic alternatives along that path. Utah is far from guilty of "HORRIBLE spending," as you put it. This is a prime example of why you can't judge how well a team is managed simply by looking at a list of a team's salaries.

First of all, you have to consider the market in question. Superstar free agents aren't coming to Utah, and other highly desired players won't either unless the Jazz severely overpay. Therefore, having a ton of cap space doesn't mean nearly as much for Utah as it would Miami or New York. For example, having Marvin Williams' $7.5 million player option for next season doesn't alter Utah's chance of landing Dwight Howard and Chris Paul next summer, since it would be 0% regardless.

With that in mind, in the summer of 2010 the Jazz were a playoff team with a key player--Carlos Boozer--entering free agency. As expected, the Jazz wisely let Boozer walk instead of re-signing him to a deal along the lines of the 5-year, $75 million contract he received from Chicago. To be more precise, Utah actually engineered a sign-and-trade with Chicago to generate an enormous trade exception, which was significant since the Jazz were still over the cap even after letting Boozer go. Thus, the huge trade exception allowed Utah the flexibility that they would not have otherwise had to add a replacement player.

So instead of keeping Boozer at price tag in excess of 5 years, $75 million (he'd presumably want more to stay in Utah), the Jazz turned him into a trade exception that they used to acquire the younger, cheaper, and more versatile Al Jefferson (3 years, $42 million remaining at the time), which only cost them two lottery-protected picks and Kosta Koufos. Utah was fortunate that Minnesota happened to have two incompatible players in Jefferson and Love and was therefore willing to dump the older and more expensive Jefferson (Love was still on his rookie contract) to create cap space for role players that would better complement Love.

I ask you, what would you have done instead of the Jefferson deal? You're not getting a better player than Jefferson from a salary dump or from the alternative cap space in future seasons, and not finding a comparable immediate replacement for Boozer would have left a returning playoff team with a huge hole. Plugging Jefferson in for Boozer on a Deron Williams-led team coming off a #5 seed made perfect sense. The only alternative would be to completely blow up a solid playoff team featuring Williams in his prime, at a point in which they did not yet believe Williams was a goner.

The following 2010-11 season, as it became clear to the Jazz that Deron Williams was likely to bolt as a free agent in the summer of 2012, they decided to make a deal that would allow them to rebuild on the fly. They received Favors, the Nets' unprotected 2011 lottery pick (which turned into the #3 overall pick, used on Kanter), a protected first round pick originating from Golden State (a lottery pick for which the Warriors delayed conveyance for at least another year via one of the most blatant tank jobs in NBA history), and Devin Harris. At the time, Harris had been the Nets' starting PG for a few seasons and was very productive in that time, establishing himself as a quality starter. There was a huge chasm in salary between the two key players involved--Williams and Favors--so the Nets had to throw in an additional piece to make the salaries match, and the Jazz also needed a replacement for Williams at PG, so the serviceable Harris made a lot of sense.

The turmoil of that 2010-11 season, including the resignation of Jerry Sloan and the trade of Williams, led to Utah falling out of the playoff race that year (they were 31-23 when Sloan resigned, and 8-20 afterward). However, they were able to undergo a respectable rebuild (assembling a young core in Favors, Kanter, Hayward, and Burks) while becoming competitive once again, earning a playoff spot in 2011-12. Rebuilding without going through the painful process of completely bottoming out for multiple seasons is extremely difficult--especially for a small market team--yet Kevin O'Connor has pulled it off twice: after the Stockton-Malone and the Williams-Boozer eras.

In December 2011, the Jazz traded Mehmet Okur to the Nets for a second round pick (the frontcourt logjam in Utah as well as Okur's health made him expendable) and acquired a trade exception as a result. More on that trade exception in a moment.

For whatever reason, Devin Harris in Utah didn't work out well, which triggered a couple of deals. First, the Jazz used their aforementioned trade exception from the Okur deal to acquire Mo Williams, whom the Clippers were willing to dump due to their glut of undersized guards. Utah didn't have cap room to make a significant acquisition, Williams has an expiring contract (so he's not tying up cap space long-term), and he filled a need for Utah (perimeter shooting).

That made it easier for Utah to trade Harris a few days later. They traded Harris and his expiring $8.5 million to Atlanta for Marvin Williams and his remaining two years, $15.8 million. This is the one move for which I think you can blast O'Connor because Williams didn't address a need and adds $7.5 million to Utah's payroll next season, whereas Harris would have come off Utah's books after this season. However, it's nowhere near catastrophic, as the Jazz still only have less than $26 million committed next season (that includes Favors, Kanter, Burks, and Hayward). Millsap, Jefferson, and Mo Williams will be free agents, but assuming they only re-sign one member of the Millsap/Jefferson tandem (since they still have Favors and Kanter), they'll have a lot of cap room available to add some quality role players (for whom they'll likely have to overpay, because NBA players don't want to live in Utah).

As for Millsap, he's a good value at $8 million a year. He's in the final year of a 4-year, $32 million contract, and over the life of that contract he's averaging an efficient 14.9 PPG and 7.7 RPG in 31.3 MPG with a lofty 19.4 PER (including a career-high 21.8 PER last season) while flashing the ability to play SF on occasion. If Millsap were making $10+ million per year, there might be an argument for him being overpaid; if he were making $6 million or less per year, he'd be an absolute bargain. There aren't very many players in the league worth $8 million per year: most are worth a lot more or a lot less, but Millsap is one of the few who actually deserves to be in that range.

To recap, the Jazz have a young core of players with a lot of potential (especially Favors and Kanter) and will have significant cap space this summer, and they got to that point while remaining competitive. They have some guys on the roster whose salaries are a bit higher than they deserve, but it hasn't been a detriment as they've acquired quality players while maintaining long-term financial flexibility. Thus, I don't really understand your criticism of Utah's spending.
 
Didn't realize Mo Williams was in Utah now. So basically, the Clippers gave Baron Davis and Kyrie Irving for a 1.5 year lease on Mo Williams. Arguably the worst trade in NBA history.
 
Didn't realize Mo Williams was in Utah now. So basically, the Clippers gave Baron Davis and Kyrie Irving for a 1.5 year lease on Mo Williams. Arguably the worst trade in NBA history.

Ever hear of this guy named Chris Paul?
 
I appreciate the time you took on that Smash. I didn't know the context of all those moves, just looking at the present state with skepticism.

DOn't get me wrong. I like Favors and Kanter. I also have always liked Milsap - I just cringe when I see $8 million per. But, like I said at the bottom. When you compare him to others in that same range he's square on salary wise so that's just my own reservation. Throw Hayward in that group and I see a decent group to build around.

Heck, if Utah could play the Clips every game Foye would be the deal of the century.

Don't sell Hayward short. A team can get a lot of mileage out of him. But I still nearly hurl when I see what Jefferson pulls in. You'd get a better core with like Reggie Evans and Rony Turiaf and one other than paying that slug so much. But thats just my opinion.

Again, thx for the explanation.
 
Didn't realize Mo Williams was in Utah now. So basically, the Clippers gave Baron Davis and Kyrie Irving for a 1.5 year lease on Mo Williams. Arguably the worst trade in NBA history.
It wasn't really that bad. The Clippers saved nearly $13 million by swapping Davis for Williams, and it wasn't about pinching pennies so much as it was about clearing significant cap space. That trade created a large chunk of the cap space used to sign Caron Butler and to win the amnesty auction of Chauncey Billups.

It's certainly fair to argue that it wasn't worth giving up Irving, but the chances of that Clipper pick landing at #1 were 2.8%, 10% of landing in the Top 3, and 90% at landing #8-#11. Dan Gilbert essentially bought an incredibly expensive lottery ticket with a narrow shot of landing at the top of the draft, and it worked out. I've always argued that the Clippers should have insisted on placing Top 3 or at least Top 1 protection on that pick, but I also strongly suspect that the Cavs were unwillingly to do the deal without marginally improving their chances of landing a Top 3 pick. There was a 97.2% chance that pick was going to be anyone but Irving, and if you look at the rest of the draft, there are some quality players but no one else that would make you strongly second-guess the trade. In terms of probability, it was a very small risk that ended up biting the Clippers.

It's also worth noting that at the time of the Baron trade it was uncertain whether an amnesty clause would come to fruition in the new CBA. Otherwise, I think the Clippers would have been much more inclined to keep Baron and amnesty him in the offseason.

Ever hear of this guy named Chris Paul?
In theory, had the Clippers not traded Baron and kept their pick, they could've drafted Irving and still made the Chris Paul trade, since the CP3 trade didn't involve the use of cap space. However, it's likely that the Hornets would have insisted on Irving being included in the deal instead of Gordon; even without knowing how good Irving would be, he was younger and cheaper (four years on a rookie deal, whereas Gordon was a year away from a big payday). In that scenario, the Clippers would keep Gordon, but they wouldn't have had the requisite cap space to acquire both Butler and Billups. Also, given Gordon's injury history, the Clippers may have actually dodged a bullet.

But yeah, the Clippers still ended up with the best PG in the league and are on pace to win 60+ games without Billups and Grant Hill thus far, so you can't criticize them too harshly for a trade that was part of the chain of events that led to the current squad.
 
I appreciate the time you took on that Smash. I didn't know the context of all those moves, just looking at the present state with skepticism.

DOn't get me wrong. I like Favors and Kanter. I also have always liked Milsap - I just cringe when I see $8 million per. But, like I said at the bottom. When you compare him to others in that same range he's square on salary wise so that's just my own reservation. Throw Hayward in that group and I see a decent group to build around.

Heck, if Utah could play the Clips every game Foye would be the deal of the century.

Don't sell Hayward short. A team can get a lot of mileage out of him. But I still nearly hurl when I see what Jefferson pulls in. You'd get a better core with like Reggie Evans and Rony Turiaf and one other than paying that slug so much. But thats just my opinion.

Again, thx for the explanation.
I thought it was an interesting topic, because Utah took the difficult route of trying to stay competitive while rebuilding, rather than the OKC or Minnesota method of completely crapping out and landing near the top of the lottery multiple years. It's the same thing Houston has tried for years, except Utah actually made the playoffs while doing so.

As for Millsap, if you compare his salary to other veteran PFs (players not on rookie contracts), I think you would see good value in his contract. Kris Humphries is making $24 million over 2 years; Tyrus Thomas makes $8 million this year and even more the next two; Boozer's deal averages $15 mil; Villanueva is in the middle of a 5-year, $40 million deal signed the same summer as Millsap; Ilyasova is in the first year of a 5-year, $40 mil deal (4 years, $31.6 mil guaranteed); Ryan Anderson got 4 years, $34 million; Amare's deal is worth $20 million per; Thad Young's contract is 5 years, $42 million; Amir Johnson's contract is 5 years, $34 million. Some of those deals are really bad, and a few of them are fair, but I don't think any of them are better value than Millsap's.

Quickly going through each team, I can't find a PF better than Millsap whose salary is in the $8 million range, let alone less than that. Everyone who is inarguably better makes far more than that.

Jefferson isn't worth $15 million, but he's still a good player. Guys like Turiaf and Evans play for close to the minimum because they're easily replaceable players with very limited skill sets. If Utah replaces Jefferson with Turiaf, Evans, and another player, where does the extra savings go? This is the main point of all of this. Even if you think those guys provide better bang for the buck, you can't have an entire roster of $1-2 million players. Big men with Jefferson's offensive skill set are a rare commodity, so they command a lot of money. Utah wouldn't be in the top 10 in offensive efficiency without Jefferson; they wouldn't have been anywhere close to #7 in offensive efficiency last year with Millsap and Hayward as their #1 and #2 options.

If you think the Jazz can replace Jefferson with Turiaf, Evans, and another near-minimum vet without experiencing a significant decline, I don't know what to tell you.
 
it was good knowledge. if you look at many of these team payrolls it seems headshakingly illogical. but the context is also rather important.
 
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