Let's talk talent....

[thebigabd]

During OU's struggles this year, the argument has always been that OU has this crazy amount of talent that is not being utilized due to their youth. Does OU really have that much talent?

Tiny Gallon- Very good talent
Willie Warren- Very good talent
TMG- Very good talent

I love Crocker, but he is a pretty good Big 12 guard... Lots of teams have a guy like Crocker, a 10-12 ppg guy (on a good team) that can have a big night and always plays with heart. I would say most schools at this level have a guy like him. Thats not to say he isnt good, because he is. He will be a big loss, but I would say most schools have a Crocker.

This brings me to Orlando, Wright, Fitzgerald, Hardrick, Cade, Pledger, and Willis... How do you classify these guys? They arent any better than what most Big 12 schools have, and a few of them are worse. I don't want to throw anyone under the bus, and Fitzgerald and Pledger will have fine careers, but are they really better than what every other school at this level has?

The team has one player in the post. A team with crazy amounts of talent (which is what people have said all offseason and this year) has more than one guy in the post. It has more than one point guard. It has a complete roster and can match up with other teams... It has better athletes than Houston and UTEP (to be fair to UTEP, they can compare athletically with pretty much anyone in the country)... But we have seen this is not the case.

Tiny Gallon is a good player now, and has the potential to be a great player, and I am sure he will. Same goes for Tommy Mason-Griffin. But doesnt every school at this level have 2-3 good players? This year at this point Gallon and Mason-Griffin are good players, they arent great, they are good.

Top to bottom, this team has more "not very good talent" than it does "very good talent". Some of the highly rated guys don't even get off the bench (Fitzgerald and Willis)...

Am I wrong here? Go ahead and discuss, and I don't mean this to be a negative thread, nor am I trying to prove something.

 

[Sooner Tyra]

I think we are all guilty of drinking the kool aid about how great all these players are and how good they are going to be. IMO we have 6 players on this team and one big guy.... In next years class I want a Jabari Brown type player in the post.

 

[DeaconBoomer]

Good post. I agree with you. We don't have the players to compete with better teams right now.

 

[Seymore Cox]

There's a different between talent and athleticism. Warren is extremely skilled and talented, as is TMG, Gallon, Pledger, Davis, and even Fitzgerald. Those guys are skilled basketball players. What UTEP had was talented guys who were extremely good and really great athletes. Culpepper, Moutrie and gang were some of the best athletes I've seen this year. Add Caracter who is a more experienced and saavy version of Gallon, we never had a chance.

 

[Sooner23]

There's a different between talent and athleticism. Warren is extremely skilled and talented, as is TMG, Gallon, Pledger, Davis, and even Fitzgerald. Those guys are skilled basketball players. What UTEP had was talented guys who were extremely good and really great athletes. Culpepper, Moutrie and gang were some of the best athletes I've seen this year. Add Caracter who is a more experienced and saavy version of Gallon, we never had a chance.

This.

 

[seniorsooner]

Do you think part of the problem with our depth is that we are shooting for the moon too much in our recruiting and not focusing on locking up the "glue" guys that have made us so successful in the past?

 

[Seymore Cox]

Do you think part of the problem with our depth is that we are shooting for the moon too much in our recruiting and not focusing on locking up the "glue" guys that have made us so successful in the past?

Yes and no. I think Capel recruits scoring too much. The real problem is the attrition. We turned over too much adn replaced them with less. Keith Clark would be a senior. Juan would be a senior. Replace Hardrick and Willis with that talent level and we're a totally different team.

 

[daqman]

Replace Hardrick and Willis with that talent level and we're a totally different team.

willis has big 12 talent.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

willis has big 12 talent.

Define talent.

But I don't think I agree with that.

He may have Big 12 athleticism, but he isn't a very good basketball player at all.

 

[thebigabd]

There's a different between talent and athleticism. Warren is extremely skilled and talented, as is TMG, Gallon, Pledger, Davis, and even Fitzgerald. Those guys are skilled basketball players. What UTEP had was talented guys who were extremely good and really great athletes. Culpepper, Moutrie and gang were some of the best athletes I've seen this year. Add Caracter who is a more experienced and saavy version of Gallon, we never had a chance.

I don't think you can throw Pledger, Davis, and Fitzgerald to that list. Cade Davis is a TU type of player (not that its bad, but thats what he is) and Fitzgerald cant even get off the bench on a team that needs his position more than anything. Like I said in the original post, I think Fitzgerald and Pledger will have fine careers but they are nothing special. Every team has a shooter (Pledger) and an undersized power forward who can bang and has some skill (Fitzgerald)... They are not "extremely skilled and talented" and should not be in the same boat as Willie, Gallon, and TMG. They are the types of players everyone has. Davis is a mid-major player with a huge heart, and I am glad he is on this team but he is not extremely talented and skilled as you described.

 

[Seymore Cox]

Define talent.

But I don't think I agree with that.

He may have Big 12 athleticism, but he isn't a very good basketball player at all.

Not to come down on the kid, but he has neither. If he did, he would be on the court. The biggest thing is he can't defend. He might be good for what colorado has going on, but I don't see him getting off of the bench for any big12 team.

 

[MO]

During OU's struggles this year, the argument has always been that OU has this crazy amount of talent that is not being utilized due to their youth. Does OU really have that much talent?

Tiny Gallon- Very good talent
Willie Warren- Very good talent
TMG- Very good talent

I love Crocker, but he is a pretty good Big 12 guard... Lots of teams have a guy like Crocker, a 10-12 ppg guy (on a good team) that can have a big night and always plays with heart. I would say most schools at this level have a guy like him. Thats not to say he isnt good, because he is. He will be a big loss, but I would say most schools have a Crocker.

This brings me to Orlando, Wright, Fitzgerald, Hardrick, Cade, Pledger, and Willis... How do you classify these guys? They arent any better than what most Big 12 schools have, and a few of them are worse. I don't want to throw anyone under the bus, and Fitzgerald and Pledger will have fine careers, but are they really better than what every other school at this level has?

The team has one player in the post. A team with crazy amounts of talent (which is what people have said all offseason and this year) has more than one guy in the post. It has more than one point guard. It has a complete roster and can match up with other teams... It has better athletes than Houston and UTEP (to be fair to UTEP, they can compare athletically with pretty much anyone in the country)... But we have seen this is not the case.

Tiny Gallon is a good player now, and has the potential to be a great player, and I am sure he will. Same goes for Tommy Mason-Griffin. But doesnt every school at this level have 2-3 good players? This year at this point Gallon and Mason-Griffin are good players, they arent great, they are good.

Top to bottom, this team has more "not very good talent" than it does "very good talent". Some of the highly rated guys don't even get off the bench (Fitzgerald and Willis)...

Am I wrong here? Go ahead and discuss, and I don't mean this to be a negative thread, nor am I trying to prove something.

I absolutely agree with this post. There are players on this team that just plain are not very good, maybe not even D-1 level. I'm a big Capel fan. I think he will get there, but perhaps it is becoming apparent that he can not assemble a team like Kelvin did.

And, for what it is worth, I think Pledger is a true talent. He is, now, in an official funk. He was very good as a two game starter. I don't think he fits his current role at all.

 

[daqman]

Define talent.

But I don't think I agree with that.

He may have Big 12 athleticism, but he isn't a very good basketball player at all.

he has skills.
he has athletic ability.
he does not have it upstairs, yet.
he has everything aj had, and more.
but he lacks the one crucial element that made aj a 4 year starter. basketball IQ.
i have hopes the light will come on before his time runs out.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

he has skills.
he has athletic ability.
he does not have it upstairs, yet.
he has everything aj had, and more.
but he lacks the one crucial element that made aj a 4 year starter. basketball IQ.
i have hopes the light will come on before his time runs out.

Wow.....I don't agree with that at all.

And if his basketball IQ is the only thing keeping him at the level he is currently at, what in the world makes you think, as a 20 year old, that it is suddenly going to click? He isn't even close.

 

[Seymore Cox]

Wow.....I don't agree with that at all.

And if his basketball IQ is the only thing keeping him at the level he is currently at, what in the world makes you think, as a 20 year old, that it is suddenly going to click? He isn't even close.

I hope you guys aren't talking about Willis. The only positive thing that he has ever shown me was a very little scoring. The only thing.

 

[daqman]

Wow.....I don't agree with that at all.

And if his basketball IQ is the only thing keeping him at the level he is currently at, what in the world makes you think, as a 20 year old, that it is suddenly going to click? He isn't even close.

i think his problem is either he doesn't understand his role, or he refuses to accept the role capel wants him to play.
i think like willie, and several on the team, he just needs to mature.
i don't know how "close" he is, or if he'll ever get there.
i said i'm holding out hope.

 

[Seymore Cox]

I don't think you can throw Pledger, Davis, and Fitzgerald to that list. Cade Davis is a TU type of player (not that its bad, but thats what he is) and Fitzgerald cant even get off the bench on a team that needs his position more than anything. Like I said in the original post, I think Fitzgerald and Pledger will have fine careers but they are nothing special. Every team has a shooter (Pledger) and an undersized power forward who can bang and has some skill (Fitzgerald)... They are not "extremely skilled and talented" and should not be in the same boat as Willie, Gallon, and TMG. They are the types of players everyone has. Davis is a mid-major player with a huge heart, and I am glad he is on this team but he is not extremely talented and skilled as you described.

you don't think pledger, Davis, and fitz are skilled talented guys? Pledger has outstanding range, Fitz has great offensive skillwork with his mid range jumper and footwork around the basket, and Davis is a good shooter, great free throw shooter, and a skilled defender. Is that not talent?

 

[thebigabd]

you don't think pledger, Davis, and fitz are skilled talented guys? Pledger has outstanding range, Fitz has great offensive skillwork with his mid range jumper and footwork around the basket, and Davis is a good shooter, great free throw shooter, and a skilled defender. Is that not talent?

I don't think you get what I am saying. Sure, they are talented. But you said they are "extremely talented" and lumped them in with TMG, Willie, and Tiny. Its a different caliber of player, obviously.

-Every team at this level has a shooter (Pledger)
-Every team at this level has an undersized power forward with some skill (Fitz)
-Every team at this level has the "more heart than talent" guy (Davis)

I don't have a problem with these guys, but Fitz can't even get on the floor and Pledger is averaging 3 points a game since they got back from Alaska. Cade Davis is a good mid-major player and plays really hard, but I would not call him talented for this level. He is just a solid role player.

I think you are still stuck on the high school evaluations of these guys... I am sure Pledger and Fitz will live up to that down the road, but they are what they are this year.

 

[Seymore Cox]

I don't think you get what I am saying. Sure, they are talented. But you said they are "extremely talented" and lumped them in with TMG, Willie, and Tiny. Its a different caliber of player, obviously.

-Every team at this level has a shooter (Pledger)
-Every team at this level has an undersized power forward with some skill (Fitz)
-Every team at this level has the "more heart than talent" guy (Davis)I don't have a problem with these guys, but Fitz can't even get on the floor and Pledger is averaging 3 points a game since they got back from Alaska. Cade Davis is a good mid-major player and plays really hard, but I would not call him talented for this level. He is just a solid role player.

I think you are still stuck on the high school evaluations of these guys... I am sure Pledger and Fitz will live up to that down the road, but they are what they are this year.

What?

We didn't have a shooter the last 4 years.
your cade davis "Gritty" stereotype doesn't apply with him, he is talented
What does undersized have to do with good footwork and mid range jumpshooting?

Fitz can't get on the floor because he can't defend, rebound at a high level or contest shots.
Pledger can't defend either.
Cade is probably our 2nd best overall player.

 

[thebigabd]

Cade is probably our 2nd best overall player.

Are you drunk? Cade Davis averaged 4 points and 1 rebound on a good team last year. Cade is the "gritty", "heart" player if there ever was one. He practically defines what that player is. Come on, man.

We didn't have a shooter the last 4 years.

Dude, every team has a guy labeled "the shooter"... For OU, that is Stephen Pledger. That isnt bad, every team needs a shooter. I can name the Pledger role on every team in the Big 12. The guy who was recruited to come in and hit perimeter shots, the specialist, etc. Most teams have one, and I think every team in the Big 12 has one. He isnt some exceptional player, he is an exceptional shooter (or at least he will be)....