Not sure we're up to taking on Memphis

[coolm]

I am afraid OKC's playoff trek may soon be over.

With RW I'd list our chances at about 40/60. Without him, we're in a ton of trouble.

Kevin will score, but aside from him I am not sure WHO will find the hole. Sadly I see the series as Memphis in 5.

I hope I am wrong. As a consolation I think SA and Memphis actually have a chance against Miami.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

I'm sort of with you, but when you have the second best player on the planet you've got a shot. I said in another thread that losing RW might be a good thing becuase it would force Durant into a situation where he had to completely carry the team for a while like Jordan and LeBron had to do in their careers. I will also say that that statement was a mistake becuase when I posted it, I thought Westbrook's injury was not as severe as it turned out to be, but I still think that Durant can get to that final level of willing a series on his own.

The same as Durant, now is the time for Brooks to show what he is made of and whether he is the beneficiary of excellent management above him, or if he can truly work around a situation. Houston is a much more guard oriented perimeter team and there was little time to adjust to losing Westbrook. In this series he can settle in to his penchant of playing of Perk and I think collectively, the OKC bigs can match up well. I hope this series turns into the war that it is intended to be, that benefits OKC.

Lots of rambling, but ultimately it rests on KD. Is he ready to be "the man" like LeBron and Jordan [notice no mention of Kobe? Kobe needed another elite player to succeed, and no Pippen was not elite IMHO] have proven. I'm waiting for that 50+ game and 48 minutes of grit. I think it is there, and this series should prove it one way or another. Either way, I think Miami would have won this season, but I think OKC is about to go on a nice run starting next year.

 

[stoops4pres]

I hate that Westbrook is out; I think the teams are splitting hairs when both are healthy. If I were to guess, I think the Grizzlies win in 6. But then again, I also thought the Clippers would advance in the first round. So who knows.

What's going to be interesting is how much Brooks continues to rely on Perkins (one of his biggest shortcomings as a coach, IMO). While he matches up better with the Grizzlies than most teams, he can still be a liability when Gasol operates from the key (abating Perkins' time spent clogging-up the lanes).

Collison gives Z-Bo more problems than any post defender I can think of. Hopefully Brooks won't play him near as much as he should, a la vs. Houston in the first round.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

I'm sort of with you, but when you have the second best player on the planet you've got a shot. I said in another thread that losing RW might be a good thing becuase it would force Durant into a situation where he had to completely carry the team for a while like Jordan and LeBron had to do in their careers. I will also say that that statement was a mistake becuase when I posted it, I thought Westbrook's injury was not as severe as it turned out to be, but I still think that Durant can get to that final level of willing a series on his own.

The same as Durant, now is the time for Brooks to show what he is made of and whether he is the beneficiary of excellent management above him, or if he can truly work around a situation. Houston is a much more guard oriented perimeter team and there was little time to adjust to losing Westbrook. In this series he can settle in to his penchant of playing of Perk and I think collectively, the OKC bigs can match up well. I hope this series turns into the war that it is intended to be, that benefits OKC.

Lots of rambling, but ultimately it rests on KD. Is he ready to be "the man" like LeBron and Jordan [notice no mention of Kobe? Kobe needed another elite player to succeed, and no Pippen was not elite IMHO] have proven. I'm waiting for that 50+ game and 48 minutes of grit. I think it is there, and this series should prove it one way or another. Either way, I think Miami would have won this season, but I think OKC is about to go on a nice run starting next year.

Hahahaha.... Pipp was elite. Kobe won 2 titles with Gasol as his 2nd. Is Pippen not at least as good as Gasol??? I think we know the answer to that. LBJ also rolls with a future hall of famer named D-Wade, and a decent player named Bosh.

People tend to forget, dominant Shaq only finished the deal with Kobe/D-Wade as his guys. What those 2 had in common was they were both finishers, when Shaq could not be counted on late in games because of his free throw deficiencies.

I know many don't care for Kobe, but KD would be fortunate to accomplish what Kobe has in his career.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Hahahaha.... Pipp was elite. Kobe won 2 titles with Gasol as his 2nd. Is Pippen not at least as good as Gasol??? I think we know the answer to that. LBJ also rolls with a future hall of famer named D-Wade, and a decent player named Bosh.

People tend to forget, dominant Shaq only finished the deal with Kobe/D-Wade as his guys. What those 2 had in common was they were both finishers, when Shaq could not be counted on late in games because of his free throw deficiencies.

I know many don't care for Kobe, but KD would be fortunate to accomplish what Kobe has in his career.

I actually like Kobe, and will at least agree with your last statement. And no, Pippen is not as good as Gasol and certainly not elite. How elite was he when Jordan left? Good, not great.

 

[coolm]

you're high about Pippen. He was every bit as good and most certainly elite.

 

[stoops4pres]

you're high about Pippen. He was every bit as good and most certainly elite.

Nah, a great offensive threat and an all-time great defender is garbage.

 

[NickZepp]

Pippen took the Bulls W/O MJ to the playoffs.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Nah, a great offensive threat and an all-time great defender is garbage.

Pippen quit on his team when he was asked to inbound instead of take the shot. Maybe an all-time dick move. And since when does saying that someone is good but not great mean that you are calling them "garbage"? Pretty big stretch there. The guy was a good player, I just don't consider him great. Anyway, big Thunder win. :woot

 

[Smash Williams]

With RW I'd list our chances at about 40/60. Without him, we're in a ton of trouble.

Are you saying OKC would be the underdog with Westbrook? If so, that's a bit nuts. They were barely an underdog without him. An hour before tipoff yesterday, I checked the lines on two online books. The series prices on one site was Memphis -130/OKC +110 and Memphis -130/OKC +100 on another. The breakeven threshold for a -130 bet is 56.5%. In other words, Memphis wasn't even a 60% favorite without Westbrook.

Don't get me wrong: Memphis is a tough matchup for OKC, with or without Westbrook. Memphis is a tough matchup for everyone, because that defense always keeps them in games, but the Grizzlies also have flaws that will keep them in dog fights with teams that they should seemingly handle with relative ease, such as OKC without Westbrook. Memphis lacks outside shooting and an elite perimeter player. That's why they have an average to below average offense despite two outstanding offensive bigs. Also, their best perimeter defender can't play big minutes because he exacerbates their lack of spacing.

Before Game 1, I thought Memphis would win in 6, but that it was a winnable series for OKC. After Game 1, I still have a hard time picking against Memphis, even though the odds are now in OKC's favor. I don't think Conley will continue to play so poorly, and I'm curious to see whether Kevin Martin's renewed aggression was simply an aberration or the product of him finally realizing that he has to be the #2 option to relieve Durant's burden with Westbrook out. With both teams having about a 36 hour turnaround from Round 1 to Round 2, we probably shouldn't read too much into Game 1.

 

[Smash Williams]

I actually like Kobe, and will at least agree with your last statement. And no, Pippen is not as good as Gasol and certainly not elite. How elite was he when Jordan left? Good, not great.

The 1993-94 Bulls won 55 games with this starting lineup:

Bill Cartwright/Luc Longley
Horace Grant
Scottie Pippen
Pete Myers
B.J. Armstrong

They replaced MJ with Pete Myers (and Will Perdue with Longley, Paxson with Kerr, and added Kukoc) and only dropped off two games from the previous year (the 92-93 Bulls went 57-25). Pippen finished third in MVP voting to Olajuwon and Robinson in 93-94, during an era whose rules favored big men. He averaged an efficient 22/8.7/5.6 while being the best wing defender in the league.

Pippen was elite, with and without Jordan, but people get swept in the myth that MJ won 6 rings by himself. As for Gasol, I think the guy has received unfair criticism for most of his career, but he never won a single playoff game in Memphis.

 

[playmakr]

Gasol being as good as Pippen must be some sort of comedy routine, and Gasol being better is, well, indescribable.

 

[bocabull]

Neither Pippen or Gasol are elite. They are great players but a notch below elite. Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James ... those are the elite dudes.

 

[stoops4pres]

Pippen quit on his team when he was asked to inbound instead of take the shot. Maybe an all-time dick move. And since when does saying that someone is good but not great mean that you are calling them "garbage"? Pretty big stretch there. The guy was a good player, I just don't consider him great. Anyway, big Thunder win. :woot

I was joking around when I used the term "garbage". I wasn't trying to imply that you said the same.

And no doubt that was a punk move that Pippen made, and to my knowledge he has owned up to it. But one mistake--that has nothing to do with his production on the court, which I thought was how we measure whether a player is "elite"--shouldn't determine his evaluation.

He's one of the Top 5 wing defenders in the history of the game, and was a heck of a player on offense. I certainly think that qualifies as an elite player, but it's all semantics.

 

[stoops4pres]

Are you saying OKC would be the underdog with Westbrook? If so, that's a bit nuts. They were barely an underdog without him. An hour before tipoff yesterday, I checked the lines on two online books. The series prices on one site was Memphis -130/OKC +110 and Memphis -130/OKC +100 on another. The breakeven threshold for a -130 bet is 56.5%. In other words, Memphis wasn't even a 60% favorite without Westbrook.

Don't get me wrong: Memphis is a tough matchup for OKC, with or without Westbrook. Memphis is a tough matchup for everyone, because that defense always keeps them in games, but the Grizzlies also have flaws that will keep them in dog fights with teams that they should seemingly handle with relative ease, such as OKC without Westbrook. Memphis lacks outside shooting and an elite perimeter player. That's why they have an average to below average offense despite two outstanding offensive bigs. Also, their best perimeter defender can't play big minutes because he exacerbates their lack of spacing.

Before Game 1, I thought Memphis would win in 6, but that it was a winnable series for OKC. After Game 1, I still have a hard time picking against Memphis, even though the odds are now in OKC's favor. I don't think Conley will continue to play so poorly, and I'm curious to see whether Kevin Martin's renewed aggression was simply an aberration or the product of him finally realizing that he has to be the #2 option to relieve Durant's burden with Westbrook out. With both teams having about a 36 hour turnaround from Round 1 to Round 2, we probably shouldn't read too much into Game 1.

Well said. It's always been a toss-up with Westbrook, but now that he is out I still think Memphis will prevail.

Also, regarding Tony Allen: He can play big minutes--the Grizzlies have nearly a .700 winning percentage when he plays over 25 minutes a game--it's just that Hollins chooses not to (which is one of his biggest shortcomings as head coach IMO). What's more frustrating, is that Hollins decided not to stick Tony Allen on Durant (whenever Martin was out) because Hollins felt Durant has matured since two seasons ago when Allen gave him trouble at times during the playoffs. That might be true, but it's bizarre that Hollins didn't even give Allen a chance, rather, he reached a conclusion without evidence to the contrary. While Prince has the ideal length to guard Durant, it's obvious his hip gave him trouble since Collison fouled him in the beginning of the game; I find it hard to rationalize that the best wing defender not-named-LeBron would be a worse match-up than a gimpy Prince. If Prince continues to get abused by Durant, there is no excuse not to try Allen on him like he has in the past.

 

[coolm]

I am sorry but it is beyond foolish to think Pippen was not "elite". He DID lack the tough mentality that so many of the legendary players seem to possess - which was most certainly his weakness. But in terms of skills he was uber. Without a doubt.

I think where the line gets drawn, and legitimately so, is that Pippen was an elite player with a support mentality. He lacked the toughness and fire to will a team through a season like Jordan could do. He might do it for a game or even a stretch ... but that's where Jordan is a cut above everyone else. Of course, it's not exactly a crime to be a notch below Jordan. NEARLY EVERYONE is at least a notch below Jordan if not twenty.

I also question Durant on this. He is an awesome scorer with all the physical skills in the world. He is also a GREAT kid with an amazing personality. But he does NOT have Jordan's drive. Russell, Havlicek, Bird, Magic - these guys had amazing drive. I actually think Bird is the only one with Jordan's drive.

 

[stoops4pres]

I am sorry but it is beyond foolish to think Pippen was not "elite". He DID lack the tough mentality that so many of the legendary players seem to possess - which was most certainly his weakness. But in terms of skills he was uber. Without a doubt.

I think where the line gets drawn, and legitimately so, is that Pippen was an elite player with a support mentality. He lacked the toughness and fire to will a team through a season like Jordan could do. He might do it for a game or even a stretch ... but that's where Jordan is a cut above everyone else. Of course, it's not exactly a crime to be a notch below Jordan. NEARLY EVERYONE is at least a notch below Jordan if not twenty.

I also question Durant on this. He is an awesome scorer with all the physical skills in the world. He is also a GREAT kid with an amazing personality. But he does NOT have Jordan's drive. Russell, Havlicek, Bird, Magic - these guys had amazing drive. I actually think Bird is the only one with Jordan's drive.

See, I think we never really had a chance to judge whether Pippen had this mentality you're referring to, because he was paired with Jordan throughout the 90's (when he was an elite player). He essentially chose winning over testing how far he could take a team as the alpha dog (I'm well aware he had one season without Jordan, but still).

That's why I don't blame him for being disgruntled when Jackson chose Kukoc to take the last shot back in 1994. He had heard critics doubt he could lead a team since they started winning titles, and the first chance he had to prove he could be clutch, he wasn't given the chance. Yes, he handled it in the worst way possible, but I can't blame him for feeling that way.

As for Durant, what lead you to reach that conclusion? I think it's ultimately too early to decide, but I think there's evidence to show that he does have that "drive" you speak of. For example: I saw a stat today that he is 4-4 attempting go-ahead shots in the last 24 seconds of the 4th quarter in the last 2 playoffs, while the rest of the league is 2-23. That's a stat I think indicates he has shown flashes of having that drive to take his team to the top.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

I am sorry but it is beyond foolish to think Pippen was not "elite". He DID lack the tough mentality that so many of the legendary players seem to possess - which was most certainly his weakness. But in terms of skills he was uber. Without a doubt.

I think where the line gets drawn, and legitimately so, is that Pippen was an elite player with a support mentality. He lacked the toughness and fire to will a team through a season like Jordan could do. He might do it for a game or even a stretch ... but that's where Jordan is a cut above everyone else. Of course, it's not exactly a crime to be a notch below Jordan. NEARLY EVERYONE is at least a notch below Jordan if not twenty.

I also question Durant on this. He is an awesome scorer with all the physical skills in the world. He is also a GREAT kid with an amazing personality. But he does NOT have Jordan's drive. Russell, Havlicek, Bird, Magic - these guys had amazing drive. I actually think Bird is the only one with Jordan's drive.

If I were going to argue in favor of Pippen being labeled as "elite", it would simply be the question of how many rings did Jordan win without Pippen? As for Durant, guy is 24 years old and the second best basketball player in the world and gaining ground...this post-season he is now thrown into the waters that LeBron swam in for his stint in Cleveland. Short notice, but so far he seems to be finding his stride okay.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

But he does NOT have Jordan's drive. Russell, Havlicek, Bird, Magic - these guys had amazing drive. I actually think Bird is the only one with Jordan's drive.

He is pretty freaking driven. I don't know if he had the drive of Jordan but he is a very driven person

 

[Smash Williams]

Well said. It's always been a toss-up with Westbrook, but now that he is out I still think Memphis will prevail.

Also, regarding Tony Allen: He can play big minutes--the Grizzlies have nearly a .700 winning percentage when he plays over 25 minutes a game--it's just that Hollins chooses not to (which is one of his biggest shortcomings as head coach IMO). What's more frustrating, is that Hollins decided not to stick Tony Allen on Durant (whenever Martin was out) because Hollins felt Durant has matured since two seasons ago when Allen gave him trouble at times during the playoffs. That might be true, but it's bizarre that Hollins didn't even give Allen a chance, rather, he reached a conclusion without evidence to the contrary. While Prince has the ideal length to guard Durant, it's obvious his hip gave him trouble since Collison fouled him in the beginning of the game; I find it hard to rationalize that the best wing defender not-named-LeBron would be a worse match-up than a gimpy Prince. If Prince continues to get abused by Durant, there is no excuse not to try Allen on him like he has in the past.

I probably should have said "won't play big minutes" instead of "can't play big minutes," as it's about Hollins not wanting to make that tradeoff.

I also don't agree with Hollins regarding Allen on Durant. As well as Durant played in the first round, Houston did have some success in denying him the ball, with Francisco Garcia of all people (when did he start playing defense, let alone effective defense?). Playing physical off-ball defense on Durant and doggedly trying to deny him the ball is something Tony Allen can do more effectively than anyone else on that team. As much as Durant has improved in the last two years, that's still something that bothers him.