Anthony Grant from Alabama

[stoops4pres]

So the fact that players regressed under Capel is an endorsement? Look, I get that want to support Capel and I respect that but the facts are clear.

Sorry, but the facts are not clear in this situation. And players everywhere regress and have slumps all the time from one year to the next, regardless of coaching situation. Tell that to Ebi Ere, Taj Gray, etc under the KS era.

I never implied it as an endorsement, but I also think its offbase to blame a player's regression on a coach. It is what it is.

As for my misleading about the roster, I used what the players did in their last year with their previous coaches not what their new coaches helped them accomplish. That's why Pellot-Rosa (9.2ppg)was omitted & Anderson started 2 games in Capel's last season. If anyone is misleading its not me.

Fair enough. I'll agree to disagree with your approach on the matter.

 

[stoops4pres]

Why do people feel the need to manipulate the facts to make him seem even worse?

Exactly what I was wondering.

As I've said before, he got himself in this mess, so him getting fired is not the least bit surprising.

With that being said, I think its pointless and kind of sad to start this revisionist history and refuse to give any credit for what he did.

 

[StatGeek]

Sorry, but the facts are not clear in this situation. And players everywhere regress and have slumps all the time from one year to the next, regardless of coaching situation. Tell that to Ebi Ere, Taj Gray, etc under the KS era.

I never implied it as an endorsement, but I also think its offbase to blame a player's regression on a coach. It is what it is.




Fair enough. I'll agree to disagree with your approach on the matter.

I never laid blame at Capel's feet for the regression of these players. I never made judgment one way or another. You said they didn't perform as well under Capel and I merely pointed out that isn't a ringing endorsement of Capel's abilities.

As for the facts, I was referencing the facts I laid out in an earlier post, not opinions on the roster status.

As I stated earlier I respect your desire to defend Capel's record but doing so in a dishonest fashion is pretty weak.

 

[StatGeek]

With that being said, I think its pointless and kind of sad to start this revisionist history and refuse to give any credit for what he did.

I give Capel full credit for everything he did, good and bad. You simply focus on the good.

 

[stoops4pres]

I never laid blame at Capel's feet for the regression of these players. I never made judgment one way or another.

I didn't say you did. If you feel that way, then I'll let you know that wasn't my intention. I stated that to make the point that its not on the coach, a player or two regressing from one year to the next happens everywhere in college hoops. So its not just Capel, its every coach in basketball that according to you "is not a ringing endorsement" when a player regresses.

As I stated earlier I respect your desire to defend Capel's record but doing so in a dishonest fashion is pretty weak.

LOL, "dishonest"? Okay then...

I'm not going to waste my time defending that absurd comment. But thanks for the laugh.

 

[stoops4pres]

You simply focus on the good.

Is that so?

he got himself in this mess, so him getting fired is not the least bit surprising.

Doesn't sound like I'm simply focusing on the good. But think what you want.

 

[topcat]

Capel went 19-10, 11-7 his last year at VCU. That is good for a 5th place finish in the CCA conference. VCU missed the post season his last 2 years too.

And now we are paying him 2 million to leave because he didn't meet expectations. What the hell did Joe C expect him to achieve?

Joe C had no business hiring a coach who can't make the dance but 1 year in 4 at his current job. He better not hire another coach who is coming off of a 5th place finish at a mid major either.

No doubt Grant would be an upgrade but I think we can do better.

 

[Big Old Booger]

Capel went 19-10, 11-7 his last year at VCU. That is good for a 5th place finish in the CCA conference. VCU missed the post season his last 2 years too.

And now we are paying him 2 million to leave because he didn't meet expectations. What the hell did Joe C expect him to achieve?

Joe C had no business hiring a coach who can't make the dance but 1 year in 4 at his current job. He better not hire another coach who is coming off of a 5th place finish at a mid major either.

No doubt Grant would be an upgrade but I think we can do better.

I didn't have a problem with Joe hiring Capel other than the fact he went on the cheap. He could have shelled out more money to get a more established coach but he tried to save some money and it bit us in the butt.

The 2nd best program in a 12 team conference should never hire a coach and pay him the 11th highest salary unless you have an extenuating circumstance like you find a diamond in the rough like Terry Evans who wants the job and would stay forever.

 

[StatGeek]

Is that so?



Doesn't sound like I'm simply focusing on the good. But think what you want.

Stoops4Pres,

I will try to paint the picture for you one last time........

Capel inherited the following:

• A team coming off a 21-11 campaign
• 7 members of that team returned
• The roster Capel inherited had a combined 95 career starts
• The roster Capel inherited returned 71% of its scoring

Grant inherited the following:

• A team coming off a 19-10 campaign
• 6 members of that team returned
• The team Grant inherited had a combined 83 career starts
• The roster Grant inherited returned 53% of its scoring

Fact: In 4 years at VCU Capel averaged 19.75 wins and led the Rams to one NCAA tournament appearance & one NIT.

Fact: In 3 years at VCU Grant averaged 25.33 wins and led the Rams to two NCAA tournament appearances & one NIT.

In addition to these facts I will restate the following:

Fact: Capel coached the 3 worst teams at VCU in the last 10 years, this includes 4 different coaches.

Fact: Capel coached the 3 worst teams at OU in the last 30 years, this covers 3 coaches.

Fact: OU has made 2 NCAA Tournaments & 0 NIT's since Capel's arrival.

Fact: VCU has reached 3 NCAA Tournaments & 1 NIT since Capel left VCU.

I know a lot of people give Capel credit for Maynor (and he deserves FULL credit for recruiting him) but Maynor did nothing under Capel (not a criticism, Maynor was a typical Freshman). Maynor spent 3 of his 4 years under Grant.

I hope this creates a better understanding of the situation for everyone. I fear that it won't.

 

[stoops4pres]

The 2nd best program in a 12 team conference should never hire a coach and pay him the 11th highest salary unless you have an extenuating circumstance like you find a diamond in the rough like Terry Evans who wants the job and would stay forever.

Wow... Was it really the 11th highest salary?

That's pretty pathetic, considering like you said OU was the 2nd best program in the conference at that time.

 

[stoops4pres]

Stoops4Pres

I will try to paint the picture for you one last time........

Capel inherited the following:

• A team coming off a 21-11 campaign
• 7 members of that team returned
• The roster Capel inherited had a combined 95 career starts
• The roster Capel inherited returned 71% of its scoring

Grant inherited the following:

• A team coming off a 19-10 campaign
• 6 members of that team returned
• The team Grant inherited had a combined 83 career starts
• The roster Grant inherited returned 53% of its scoring

Fact: In 4 years at VCU Capel averaged 19.75 wins and led the Rams to one NCAA tournament appearance & one NIT.

Fact: In the 3 years at VCU Grant averaged 25.33 wins and led the Rams to 2 NCAA tournament appearances & one NIT.

In addition to these facts I will restate the following:

Fact: Capel coached the 3 worst teams at VCU in the last 10 years, this includes 4 different coaches.

Fact: Capel coached the 3 worst teams at OU in the last 30 years, this covers 3 coaches.

Fact: OU has made 2 NCAA Tournaments & 0 NIT's since Capel's arrival.

Fact: VCU has reached 3 NCAA Tournaments & 1 NIT since Capel left VCU.

I know a lot of people give Capel credit for Maynor (and he deserves FULL credit for recruiting him) but Maynor did nothing under Capel (not a criticism, Maynor was a typical Freshman). Maynor spent 3 of his 4 years under Grant.

I hope this creates a better understanding of the situation for everyone. I fear that it won't.

I read what you stated before, and you have some good points. I just don't agree with all of it, and felt there was some stuff left out that should have been added that tells more of both sides of the story.

Grant was better overall at VCU, which was something I never debated... But another point I was making that was lost in this debate was to refute when you said Grant has been better at Bama than Capel was his first two seasons at OU, when that is not true. He has yet to match Capel's success the first two years at Bama compared to Capel at OU... That's part of the point I have been saying about people refusing to see the entire story and give Capel credit. But if that was a typo on your part or a statement that I misconstrued, then okay.

Back to this discussion about Grant/Capel at VCU: I was just making the point that I felt Grant inherited a better situation (and still do feel that), and Capel should be given credit for the solid foundation he left Grant. Its not a disparagement on Grant, nor is it a full-fledged praise to Capel.

 

[StatGeek]

I read what you stated before, and you have some good points. I just don't agree with all of it, and felt there was some stuff left out that should have been added that tells more of both sides of the story.

Grant was better overall at VCU, which was something I never debated... But another point I was making that was lost in this debate was to refute when you said Grant has been better at Bama than Capel was his first two seasons at OU, when that is not true. He has yet to match Capel's success the first two years at Bama compared to Capel at OU... That's part of the point I have been saying about people refusing to see the entire story and give Capel credit. But if that was a typo on your part or a statement that I misconstrued, then okay.

Back to this discussion about Grant/Capel at VCU: I was just making the point that I felt Grant inherited a better situation (and still do feel that), and Capel should be given credit for the solid foundation he left Grant. Its not a disparagement on Grant, nor is it a full-fledged praise to Capel.

Your Point about Grant @ Bama & Capel @ OU through a couple seasons is perfectly fine, I have no issue with it.

Feeling that Grant inherited a better situation than Capel did at VCU is debatable at best. All of the actual facts suggest otherwise, but I understand that feelings and facts don't always mesh. I am curious what makes you feel that the program was worse off when Capel took over?

 

[stoops4pres]

Your Point about Grant @ Bama & Capel @ OU through a couple seasons is perfectly fine, I have no issue with it.

Feeling that Grant inherited a better situation than Capel did at VCU is debatable at best.

As stated before, you brought up some valid points, and I did concede that you proved the inheritance discrepancy wasn't as wide as I probably indicated. I still feel overall that Grant had more to work with though, simply because he didn't lose as much (departures and regressions). Furthermore, he gained a player that was the best of both regimens (Maynor).

I gave a full-depth explanation why, 1st page in response to your stats, in-between Nick Zepp's post. Not to mention, DemColtz has some solid explanations as well.

Regardless of whether we come to an agreement or not, I'll say once again that the main point is this: Capel helped lay a solid foundation for Grant to build on, which is something that seemingly has not been given credit for. Grant is a very good coach, but he does owe part of his success for what Capel laid for him.

 

[Dem Coltz]

Capel went 19-10, 11-7 his last year at VCU. That is good for a 5th place finish in the CCA conference. VCU missed the post season his last 2 years too.

This post is false. VCU made the NIT his 3rd year. His fourth year the team struggled and finished sixth. In 05-06, the CAA had two teams in the dance, George Mason made the final four, and Jose Juan Barea was player of the year for Northeastern. The top 5 teams made the NCAA or NIT. Tough league.

Let's cut the the chase: look at the conference standings and win-loss records for Capel's predecessor. His first 3 years he was 24-24 in conference games, good for 6th, 5th and 4th in conference, and barely above water in overall record. Capel got there in 01-02, the team finished 3rd and 11-7 in conference his first year.

The next year he was the head man. Yes, he did inherit some players who could score. But the culture that Grant inherited vs Capel was apples and oranges. Taylor and Willie were gunners who cared more about stats than wins, and there are stories that don't belong on this board to attest to that. Capel brought in players who would work and wanted to win. Looking at Grant's winning pct, it got progressively worse each year there. Hmm...so was he a better coach his first year? Or did he just have the cupboard that Capel left him? No matter what you think, you can't disagree that Grant's best team was all Capel's players, but Capel's best team was 1 excellent player from the previous coach and one role player, while all the rest were recruited and signed with him as head coach or lead recruiting asst.

 

[Dem Coltz]

What StatGeek misses is that Capel's two predecessors had 2 seasons where they were more than 2 games over .500 in 12 years before Capel's first and only year as an asst. When he was hired as asst they finished 3rd and went 21-11. He finished 2nd place his first year, then 1st, then 2nd, then 6th. Never won less than 18 games, and as he's said many times were poised to do serious things the year he left.

The stats don't convey the culture that was present. He rebuilt a program that was lying dormant. Ask any VCU fan if they would be where they are right now if not for Capel. Grant had been an asst for more years (10) at Florida than he had to be, but he wanted to be selective about choosing his first head coaching job. When he saw what VCU had to offer it was a no brainer. It's not a coincidence he left after Maynor did either, he's a smart guy. Otherwise could someone explain why his best season was his first with all Capel guys? Did he get worse the longer he stayed? No, but the players weren't as good.

 

[StatGeek]

What StatGeek misses is that Capel's two predecessors had 2 seasons where they were more than 2 games over .500 in 12 years before Capel's first and only year as an asst. When he was hired as asst they finished 3rd and went 21-11. He finished 2nd place his first year, then 1st, then 2nd, then 6th. Never won less than 18 games, and as he's said many times were poised to do serious things the year he left.

The stats don't convey the culture that was present. He rebuilt a program that was lying dormant. Ask any VCU fan if they would be where they are right now if not for Capel. Grant had been an asst for more years (10) at Florida than he had to be, but he wanted to be selective about choosing his first head coaching job. When he saw what VCU had to offer it was a no brainer. It's not a coincidence he left after Maynor did either, he's a smart guy. Otherwise could someone explain why his best season was his first with all Capel guys? Did he get worse the longer he stayed? No, but the players weren't as good.

I don't miss anything, I actually lived in Virginia while both coach McCarthy & Capel coached there. I went to VCU games pretty regularly, and I assure you that I know as much about VCU as anybody on this board.

Coach McCarthy turned the VCU program around, not Capel. Capel did a perfectly adequate job at VCU, but McCarthy is the one who brought stability and the one that laid the foundation for the ongoing success VCU has experienced since his departure.

Ram fans have a certain reverence for Capel because he led them to the NCAA tournament for the first time since JD Barnett left for Tulsa. That NCAA run was an extension of McCarthy's work, that being said, Capel deserves full credit for keeping the program going.

Your attempt to argue this point is laughable.

And by the way this is completely false

What StatGeek misses is that Capel's two predecessors had 2 seasons where they were more than 2 games over .500 in 12 years before Capel's first and only year as an asst.

Capel was an assistant at ODU for 1 year & VCU for 1 year plus his predecessors had 3 seasons that were more than 2 games over .500.

 

[Dem Coltz]

And by the way this is completely false

Capel was an assistant at ODU for 1 year & VCU for 1 year plus his predecessors had 3 seasons that were more than 2 games over .500.

OK which 3 seasons? I get Sonny Smith in 93 and 96. But Mack never did until Capel was there as an asst. Which I said, "before Capel got there". Besides we're splitting hairs, 2 out of 12 compared to 3 out of 13 seasons with more than 2 games over .500.

I'll bet I know just as much about VCU as you. Mack laid stability? Their practices were a joke under him, players effed around with no discipline. Not sure how you could omit Pellot-Rosa, he started since his freshman year. Since you know, tell me this: if Capel still had assts White and Cline do you think he'd still be at OU? Personally I do. Losing White, then Cline, were his undoing.