Cousins

[WTSooner]

And actually, unless there was more than one thread on it, the thread I just found, I didn't even respond to you about Pledger in this thread. Not one word from me on the subject.

http://ouhoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22885&highlight=shoplifting

Pledger/Fitz talk starts on page 2, I think.

Your memory sucks. Or are you just lying again?

 

[garyeb2]

If the proper punishment for stealing a couple of shirts, or anything worse, was a season long suspension, college basketball (and/or college sports in general) would become pretty crappy products.

If you think petty shoplifting results in strong handed legal punishment, even to the average citizen, you really need to do some research. More often then not, it ends up not even involving the police, unless it's some special circumstance.

You really need to get over the Pledger-hate that you have. I'm sorry that he proved you wrong by being one of the top players on a team that made the NCAA Tournament, but you should be happy about it, if you are really an OU fan.

Once again. You want to lecture someone on a topic that you know nothing about.

As perceived by retail merchants, shoplifting is a serious crime. As a group, they want that crime prosecuted every time. Losses by theft are a serious leak to their bottom line. And they want it plugged.

Shop lifting is a misdemeanor. Here is the catch. It is a crime in the Oklahoma criminal code and also in the criminal code of most all municipalities. The arresting officer makes the initial call as to whether municipal charges or state charges are brought against the suspect. The District Attorney reserves the right to upgrade a municipal charge to a state charge if he deems the circumstances to warrant it. In the case of a repeat offender or something similar the DA might do that. But, in most all cases the arresting officer's original call sticks.

There is more to it than how the paper work reads. It was to be either The City of Norman vs Pledger or The State of Oklahoma vs Pledger. The min. and max penalties are much more severe with a state charge of the same crime.

As I stated earlier. The merchants want the state charge brought every time. Pledger and Fitz received a favorable call from the arresting officer. It may have been the right call. But, it was a favorable call. As a result of the favorable call, Pledger and Fitz were not arrested. They received a ticket and were released. Then they had to appear in Municipal court to face municipal charges.

As I have mentioned before, I spent the last 4 years of my working life as a bail bondsman in Norman. Me personally and my staff bailed out countless dozens of Sooner Fashion Mall shoplifters over those years. They were arrested, jailed, faced state charges, and had to post a bond from $1000 to $2000 to exorcise their right to remain free until their case was litigated.

Cousins on the other hand was arrested and thrown in jail. Also on municipal charges. The public intox is a much lessor offense than shoplifting. It is possible that there has been a change since I was keeping up with it. But, public intox has always been a municipal charge. No state charges were ever filed for public intox. The report didn't say the officer did a field sobriety test and Cousins failed. The officer wasn't reported to have gotten a blood sample. Cousins was basically jailed on suspicion of public intox. A charge he will beat. The obstruction charge is a made up catch all charge given as a gift to police officers. Basically, it gives the cop the right to arrest anyone if they don't do what they say. That is another judgement call for the officer. It is a lot easier to arrest on that charge than it is to convict on that charge. Cousins didn't get a favorable call from the officer. He got a bad call. Just like Pledger and Fitz. It could have been the right call. But, it was a bad call. Now, if any of the resident lawyers want to correct me on my basic interpretations, feel free to do so.

Most athletes don't get charged with a crime while in school. It is never OK when they do. Most all shoplifters are charged. You wanting to argue otherwise is evidence of your hypocrisy .

 

[garyeb2]

It's almost like you guys effort to get crossways, no matter the topic. Have either of you ever agreed on something? Good stuff. I enjoy the banter.

We have agreed on some stuff. We both think that Capel was bad for the program. There is some consensus on Willie Warren and TMG being negative impacts on the program.

 

[WTSooner]

Didn't need your life history, nor did I need a lesson on shoplifting.

I disagree with you though. I've heard of hundreds of cases of shoplifting that go unpunished. It's not worth the time or money for every store to prosecute every shoplifter. It just isn't. Most of the time, if the thief cooperates and returns the goods and isn't acting all crazy, that is enough. They are told to stay out of that store. End of story. Obviously if we are talking about stealing tv's, jewelry, or thousands of dollars in clothes, that is different. But no store wants to take the time to prosecute over a couple of shirts. That is my experience, athlete or not.

 

[Max Power]

How so? You weren't around when Pledger and Fitz got in trouble, so you have NO IDEA what my opinion was at the time. All you know is what my opinion was about 2-3 years AFTER the incident.

I've also never said that Cousins should be suspended, kicked off the team, or anything like that. Wouldn't YOU be the true hypocrite here? I haven't seen you suggest that Cousins should be suspended for the year. Or do you think under-aged drinking in public, fighting in public, and then running from the police is less of an offense than swiping a couple of shirts.

:facepalm

In fairness, outside the fight those are less serious than shop lifting

 

[garyeb2]

Didn't need your life history, nor did I need a lesson on shoplifting.

I disagree with you though. I've heard of hundreds of cases of shoplifting that go unpunished. It's not worth the time or money for every store to prosecute every shoplifter. It just isn't. Most of the time, if the thief cooperates and returns the goods and isn't acting all crazy, that is enough. They are told to stay out of that store. End of story. Obviously if we are talking about stealing tv's, jewelry, or thousands of dollars in clothes, that is different. But no store wants to take the time to prosecute over a couple of shirts. That is my experience, athlete or not.

You are wrong. There is no cost to the store for the prosecution of crimes. None. Zero. Nata. The crime isn't against the merchant. The crime is committed against the people of the state or the municipality. The state or the municipality bare the cost of prosecution. It is worth their time and it cost them no money. What cost them money is losses by theft. You have already crossed the point on this topic where you look ignorant. Whatever experience you have on this topic isn't relevant to the point that it can bring you to the right conclusion.

 

[WTSooner]

You are wrong. There is no cost to the store for the prosecution of crimes. None. Zero. Nata. The crime isn't against the merchant. The crime is committed against the people of the state or the municipality. The state or the municipality bare the cost of prosecution. It is worth their time and it cost them no money. What cost them money is losses by theft. You have already crossed the point on this topic where you look ignorant. Whatever experience you have on this topic isn't relevant to the point that it can bring you to the right conclusion.

Why do you do this? Why do you take general statements, and try to apply them to tiny scenarios? I'm 100% familiar with how this works. I understand the law. The rights of all involved. And the different TYPES of prosecution that can be brought against a shoplifter. I understand the difference between a civil and a criminal trial/case. And I stand by what I said. A VERY large percentage of teenagers caught stealing a shirt or two are never prosecuted. Sometimes they are taken to jail as a scare tactic, often times it never even makes it that far. I'd say that is the case in at least 50% of such cases. You disagree. Neither one of us can factually prove our side. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.

Back to the topic at hand. Did you read the link I posted? Did you see where I never said one work about Pledger/Fitz in that thread? Did you misremember again, or is there another thread where i actually discussed this in a manner that would make me a hypocrite? I did YOUR research for you. Either admit you were wrong, or go find the proof (should be easy enough) that you were right.

 

[garyeb2]

How so? You weren't around when Pledger and Fitz got in trouble, so you have NO IDEA what my opinion was at the time. All you know is what my opinion was about 2-3 years AFTER the incident.

I've also never said that Cousins should be suspended, kicked off the team, or anything like that. Wouldn't YOU be the true hypocrite here? I haven't seen you suggest that Cousins should be suspended for the year. Or do you think under-aged drinking in public, fighting in public, and then running from the police is less of an offense than swiping a couple of shirts.

:facepalm

Let's go back and re-read the article. There was no fight. There were no charges related to any fight. Cousins was charged with public intox and interference. Both misdemeanors under the municipal code. Both lessor charges than shoplifting. Both charges will likely be beaten. Pledger and Fitz were guilty of shoplifting. The municipal and state codes define which offenses are more or less serious by the min and max penalties for those offenses. You may want the authority to make such judgements. But, the legislature has already done that for us.

There is a difference between the two situations. Pledger and Fitz stole some shirts during the season and a week or ten days later they are back on TV representing my school. If memory serves, it was against OSU in Stillwater. The announcers mentioned the incident 2 or 3 times. There is a law against stealing shirts. But, there is no law that would prevent me from not liking what I was listening to. Stoops suspended Broyles for a year for stealing some gas. Broyles was a good player and I was certainly OK with what Stoops. did.

Cousin was involved in an off season incident of a much lessor degree than shoplifting. There is a distinction. Your failure to recognize that distinction is ample evidence of you being a hypocrite on any topic concerning Pledger. There is plenty of time for Cousins to earn his way into good graces before the season starts. But, if Kruger wants to drop the hammer on him, that will be OK with me too.

 

[garyeb2]

Why do you do this? Why do you take general statements, and try to apply them to tiny scenarios? I'm 100% familiar with how this works. I understand the law. The rights of all involved. And the different TYPES of prosecution that can be brought against a shoplifter. I understand the difference between a civil and a criminal trial/case. And I stand by what I said. A VERY large percentage of teenagers caught stealing a shirt or two are never prosecuted. Sometimes they are taken to jail as a scare tactic, often times it never even makes it that far. I'd say that is the case in at least 50% of such cases. You disagree. Neither one of us can factually prove our side. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.

Back to the topic at hand. Did you read the link I posted? Did you see where I never said one work about Pledger/Fitz in that thread? Did you misremember again, or is there another thread where i actually discussed this in a manner that would make me a hypocrite? I did YOUR research for you. Either admit you were wrong, or go find the proof (should be easy enough) that you were right.

You are just making up stuff again. Tracking defendant outcomes was a big time consuming project for me. It helped me in making good underwriting decisions. I paid $1100 for the best available software to help me reduce the study of defendant outcomes to a science. I know what happens to shoplifters from the time they are caught until the incident is resolved. You don't.

To prove my point, I don't need to do much research. Just following this thread is enough. At every juncture, including now, you have wanted to gloss over what Pledger and Fitz did as no big deal, everyone does it, no one cares, nothing to see here move on.

On the Cousin thread you showed up twice with "I wasn't surprised" as if you were able to spot him as a bad seed from the start and then again with how "dumb" he was. When you start making up stuff and bloviating on a topic, I'm going to call you on it. You might as well just get used to it.

 

[WTSooner]

I'll let you go find my comments if you want, but I just went back and found my posts about Pledger/Fitz, and I was WAY harder on them back then, then I've been on Cousins. Much more negative to say than the two little comments I've made about Cousins.

An example:

I don't consider what they did to be a mistake. A mistake is more of a peer pressure, heat of the moment type of deal. I also said that I understand young kids wanting to drink or fight. But stealing is a bigger issue. And just b/c some people do stupid stuff at that age and turn out fine, doesn't mean a) the majority do, and 2) that it is okay.

The only reason the punishment here MIGHT be worse than the crime, is b/c of the attitudes and stuff we've already seen all year. I'm guessing if this weren't two freshman......it were were Willis, or Allen, you might see them kicked off the team. Be tough to boot these two, as we'd have MAJOR roster issues next year.

I'd make the entire team run. These guys need to learn to keep each other in line. And Lord knows I ran enough over the years for other peoples' mistakes.

Hypocrite my backside. Just b/c you came around 2-3 years later, after those two hadn't been in any more trouble, doesn't mean I wasn't upset with them at the time. I guarantee that 2-3 years from now, if Cousins has stayed out of trouble, you won't hear a peep from me about this incident.

I'm done here. I think I've provided sufficient proof that I'm not being a bit hypocritical in this situation.

 

[sharp1]

You are just making up stuff again. Tracking defendant outcomes was a big time consuming project for me. It helped me in making good underwriting decisions. I paid $1100 for the best available software to help me reduce the study of defendant outcomes to a science. I know what happens to shoplifters from the time they are caught until the incident is resolved. You don't.

To prove my point, I don't need to do much research. Just following this thread is enough. At every juncture, including now, you have wanted to gloss over what Pledger and Fitz did as no big deal, everyone does it, no one cares, nothing to see here move on.

On the Cousin thread you showed up twice with "I wasn't surprised" as if you were able to spot him as a bad seed from the start and then again with how "dumb" he was. When you start making up stuff and bloviating on a topic, I'm going to call you on it. You might as well just get used to it.

I guess my question is...what does Pledger or Fitz from 3 years ago...have to do with Cousins now...? Garyb2 injected them into this for now reason...Why not mention what Chris early did, or some other Ou student athlete did? "WT" I don't know why you allow him too get you mad...he's a hater

 

[skyvue]

I don't really have a horse in this race. I'm very disappointed in Cousins, but then I was very disappointed in Pledger and Fitz, too. I'm disappointed every time one of our student-athletes steps out of line because it reflects badly on the program and the university he or she represents.

That said, I consider both getting drunk (especially if there's any chance the young man or woman will get behind the wheel) and fighting much worse than stealing a couple of shirts. Not that I approve of the latter -- I certainly don't -- but people can die from drunk driving and from physical violence.

Did I ever get drunk when I was young? Yes, a handful of times (though not intentionally -- the hangovers I suffered in those days were sufficiently brutal that I tried to avoid overdoing it), but I haven't been in a physical fight since third grade (and that was just a shoving match).

I have no kids of my own, but I do have 17 nieces and nephews (spread across two generations) that I love dearly and I'd be more upset to learn they'd driven drunk or gotten into a fight than if they'd shoplifted a couple of shirts (though I'd not be happy about the latter, not by a long shot).

 

[garyeb2]

I guess my question is...what does Pledger or Fitz from 3 years ago...have to do with Cousins now...? Garyb2 injected them into this for now reason...Why not mention what Chris early did, or some other Ou student athlete did? "WT" I don't know why you allow him too get you mad...he's a hater

I have a problem with WT and a handful of others. When I joined this board a couple of years ago, I felt I was treated poorly. It is my opinion that I was met with a barrage of name calling and mean spirited personal insults for no other reason than my opinions differed from theirs. Since then, that same routine has been repeated time after time with different new posters by the same little group.

The result is that they generally run off the new poster. In my case, they picked on the wrong guy. I won't let it go and I will continue to grind on them until they change their behavior or move on. It has little or nothing to do with Pledger. It has everything to do with me having little tolerance for jerks and bullies. Are you up to speed now?

 

[garyeb2]

I don't really have a horse in this race. I'm very disappointed in Cousins, but then I was very disappointed in Pledger and Fitz, too. I'm disappointed every time one of our student-athletes steps out of line because it reflects badly on the program and the university he or she represents.

That said, I consider both getting drunk (especially if there's any chance the young man or woman will get behind the wheel) and fighting much worse than stealing a couple of shirts. Not that I approve of the latter -- I certainly don't -- but people can die from drunk driving and from physical violence.

Did I ever get drunk when I was young? Yes, a handful of times (though not intentionally -- the hangovers I suffered in those days were sufficiently brutal that I tried to avoid overdoing it), but I haven't been in a physical fight since third grade (and that was just a shoving match).

I have no kids of my own, but I do have 17 nieces and nephews (spread across two generations) that I love dearly and I'd be more upset to learn they'd driven drunk or gotten into a fight than if they'd shoplifted a couple of shirts (though I'd not be happy about the latter, not by a long shot).

Drunk driving is a serious crime. So is assault and battery. Cousins is accused of neither. Shoplifting is a more serious crime than interference and public intox. Are we clear on the facts now?

 

[skyvue]

Drunk driving is a serious crime. So is assault and battery. Cousins is accused of neither. Shoplifting is a more serious crime than interference and public intox. Are we clear on the facts now?

I was perfectly clear on the facts, Mr. Grinder. I'm not talking about what Cousins was charged with, I'm talking about how I'd react, as a parent, to his actions. If my son was drunk and got in a fight, I wouldn't care a whit whether he got charged with the more serious offenses -- or any offenses at all, for that matter. He and I would still be having a serious face-to-face discussion about his future behavior, and pronto.

 

[WTSooner]

I have a problem with WT and a handful of others. When I joined this board a couple of years ago, I felt I was treated poorly. It is my opinion that I was met with a barrage of name calling and mean spirited personal insults for no other reason than my opinions differed from theirs. Since then, that same routine has been repeated time after time with different new posters by the same little group.

The result is that they generally run off the new poster. In my case, they picked on the wrong guy. I won't let it go and I will continue to grind on them until they change their behavior or move on. It has little or nothing to do with Pledger. It has everything to do with me having little tolerance for jerks and bullies. Are you up to speed now?

Hilarious.

That is the difference in me and you Gary. I don't particularly like you, but none of my debates with you are personal. I simply disagree with what is being posted, or have another take, and I'm posting that. Could be directed at you, OUHoops, or Jeff Capel's mama. I don't care, my responses will be the same. But you've made it perfectly clear that you will continue your "grind". That is quite sad. Grow up. We can disagree, and even discuss those differences, without you having a giant chip on your shoulder.

 

[garyeb2]

Hilarious.

That is the difference in me and you Gary. I don't particularly like you, but none of my debates with you are personal. I simply disagree with what is being posted, or have another take, and I'm posting that. Could be directed at you, OUHoops, or Jeff Capel's mama. I don't care, my responses will be the same. But you've made it perfectly clear that you will continue your "grind". That is quite sad. Grow up. We can disagree, and even discuss those differences, without you having a giant chip on your shoulder.

I know that you would like to get away with it. Most bullies do. And on this board, most of the time you have. You and Sky Boy (did I spell that right?) are the primary offenders. Others sometimes seem to jump in and follow along.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder. Either one of you can say whatever you want. My point is that you can not say anything that you want to me for free. There is a price. Every time you are off base you will be challenged and then ridiculed. Change your behaviors or move on. Then it will stop.

 

[WTSooner]

I know that you would like to get away with it. Most bullies do. And on this board, most of the time you have. You and Sky Boy (did I spell that right?) are the primary offenders. Others sometimes seem to jump in and follow along.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder. Either one of you can say whatever you want. My point is that you can not say anything that you want to me for free. There is a price. Every time you are off base you will be challenged and then ridiculed. Change your behaviors or move on. Then it will stop.

Challenged like when you stuck up for nike? Oh wait.

Challenged like when you said Cousins didn't run, and suggested I go read the article again, only for me to quote the story where it stated he ran? Oh wait.

Challenged like when you said I was being a hypocrite about Pledger vs Cousins, yet I did the "homework" for you and provided my quotes where I was much uglier about Pledger than I was about Cousins? Oh wait.

Challenged like when you made some comment about me blasting you and calling you names during the re-litigation of Pledger/Fitz since you've joined the board, only for me to AGAIN do your homework for you, and provide a link to that thread where I said NOTHING about Pledger/Fitz? Oh wait.

Let me know how that works out for ya.

 

[garyeb2]

Challenged like when you stuck up for nike? Oh wait.

Challenged like when you said Cousins didn't run, and suggested I go read the article again, only for me to quote the story where it stated he ran? Oh wait.

Challenged like when you said I was being a hypocrite about Pledger vs Cousins, yet I did the "homework" for you and provided my quotes where I was much uglier about Pledger than I was about Cousins? Oh wait.

Challenged like when you made some comment about me blasting you and calling you names during the re-litigation of Pledger/Fitz since you've joined the board, only for me to AGAIN do your homework for you, and provide a link to that thread where I said NOTHING about Pledger/Fitz? Oh wait.

Let me know how that works out for ya.

You can squeal like a pig stuck under a gate from now on for all I care. You made a mistake. You picked on the wrong guy. My intention is to make your participation as uncomfrontable as possible until you change your behaviors. It is all up to you.

I am aquainted with people that log on this board at least every day for whatever basketball info that they can get. But, they never post, they never participate. They tell me that they don't want to expose themselves to the liability of being abused by the jerks. Me, I just respond in kind.

 

[WTSooner]

You can squeal like a pig stuck under a gate from now on for all I care. You made a mistake. You picked on the wrong guy. My intention is to make your participation as uncomfrontable as possible until you change your behaviors. It is all up to you.

Good luck with that. The people that own and run this board aren't going to let you and your intentions ruin this board. Now that I know you are simply stirring the pot, I'll just go back to ignoring you.