D12 traded from Lakers to Warriors?

[jmizzy4ou]

Nonsense..... History is full of evidence, some are winners, some are losers.

When you are Dwight Howard, you hold teams like Orlando hostage. LA does not need to kiss Howard's butt, nor make sweeping concessions for a guy who has done nothing. LA has numerous banners hanging in the rafters because guys like Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, West, Kobe, and Magic wanted to wear the Purple and Gold.

Obviously Trammel or any of the other Oklahoman hacks have never covered an elite professional franchise. Why would a great player like LA give in to a crying, spoiled, over-rated me first guy, when in one year they will have funds and cap space to land top free agents like LBJ, Melo, or Paul George.

I lamented all season D'Antoni wasn't the best fit, but I sure wouldn't fire a coach because D-12 said he didn't want to play for him. With Howard's history it will be something else very soon. Not enough players around him, not enough touches, too many stars, small market, too big of a market, etc.....

Let's check back in a season or 2 after the OKC Thunder and Spurs make the Rockets their door mats. let's see if Howard is a winner or not, because from my 45+ yrs. of following sports, winners are defined by hard work, dedication, and a killer instinct when the money is on the line. Someone please tell me which of those traits Howard has ever shown anyplace???? He is good for several goofy laughs and 1/2 hearted attempts at making a free throw per game.......

Howard can't sit at Kobe's dinner table.......

 

[sperry]

Nonsense..... History is full of evidence, some are winners, some are losers.

When you are Dwight Howard, you hold teams like Orlando hostage. LA does not need to kiss Howard's butt, nor make sweeping concessions for a guy who has done nothing. LA has numerous banners hanging in the rafters because guys like Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, West, Kobe, and Magic wanted to wear the Purple and Gold.

Obviously Trammel or any of the other Oklahoman hacks have never covered an elite professional franchise. Why would a great player like LA give in to a crying, spoiled, over-rated me first guy, when in one year they will have funds and cap space to land top free agents like LBJ, Melo, or Paul George.

I lamented all season D'Antoni wasn't the best fit, but I sure wouldn't fire a coach because D-12 said he didn't want to play for him. With Howard's history it will be something else very soon. Not enough players around him, not enough touches, too many stars, small market, too big of a market, etc.....

Let's check back in a season or 2 after the OKC Thunder and Spurs make the Rockets their door mats. let's see if Howard is a winner or not, because from my 45+ yrs. of following sports, winners are defined by hard work, dedication, and a killer instinct when the money is on the line. Someone please tell me which of those traits Howard has ever shown anyplace???? He is good for several goofy laughs and 1/2 hearted attempts at making a free throw per game.......

Howard can't sit at Kobe's dinner table.......

This is such nonsense. Those guys are "winners" because they were great players, and played on great teams coached by great coaches. Was Kobe a "loser" when he was stuck on a team with Chuckie Atkins in the starting lineup that was lottery bound? No, he was a great player playing on a crappy team. Was Shaq a "loser" in Orlando? Did he want to wear the purple and gold when he forced a trade to Miami? Was he a hard worker when he showed up out of shape every year?


Was everyone in the league a "loser" when Michael Jordan was in the league? Or was it just that a better team than them won the championship every year?


As for Dwight on the Rockets, they aren't as good as the other teams in the league so they're not likely to win a championship. It has nothing to do with Dwight being a "winner" or "loser." It has to do with the Heat, Thunder, and Spurs and probably some other teams having better rosters than the Rockets.




There are certainly guys who don't put in the effort and don't care. That's reflected in their production. The fact of the matter is, every team that Dwight Howard has ever played for has been signficiantly better when he's on the court. Because he's a fantastic center, and a monster on defense. The Rockets will be significantly better for having him (assuming he's healthy). No amount of cliches and meaningless labels is going to change that.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

This is such nonsense. Those guys are "winners" because they were great players, and played on great teams coached by great coaches. Was Kobe a "loser" when he was stuck on a team with Chuckie Atkins in the starting lineup that was lottery bound? No, he was a great player playing on a crappy team. Was Shaq a "loser" in Orlando? Did he want to wear the purple and gold when he forced a trade to Miami? Was he a hard worker when he showed up out of shape every year?


Was everyone in the league a "loser" when Michael Jordan was in the league? Or was it just that a better team than them won the championship every year?


As for Dwight on the Rockets, they aren't as good as the other teams in the league so they're not likely to win a championship. It has nothing to do with Dwight being a "winner" or "loser." It has to do with the Heat, Thunder, and Spurs and probably some other teams having better rosters than the Rockets.




There are certainly guys who don't put in the effort and don't care. That's reflected in their production. The fact of the matter is, every team that Dwight Howard has ever played for has been signficiantly better when he's on the court. Because he's a fantastic center, and a monster on defense. The Rockets will be significantly better for having him (assuming he's healthy). No amount of cliches and meaningless labels is going to change that.

I'll use your own examples to answer your questions: So what you are saying is every great player who played on great teams should have won a title right???? Why could Stockton/Malone and Kemp/Payton not overcome Jordan??? Did Utah not have equal or better talent than Chicago?? The difference was the best player in the game, MJ wouldn't allow his team to lose... to ANYONE. Take MJ off the Bulls and you get a good team as they were when he left. Put MJ on, and you win 6 titles with multiple rosters=WINNER.

Philadelphia once had an all-star lineup with McGinnis, Free, Toney, Jones, Dawkins, C. Jones, etc.... They had no proven leader/winner. They stuffed stat sheets and looked good doing it, but that great team, with great players won nothing, and usually lost to lesser teams.

The Lakers had Norm Nixon, Kareem, Wilkes, and a great bench. Couldn't get out of the 1st round of the playoffs. Add Magic Johnson, a proven winner, and they win 3 of 5 rings....... Similar story in Boston with Larry Legend.

For the record Shaq never forced anything with Miami. The Lakers decided on a younger Kobe and Shaq and his huge contract became expendable. It wasn't Shaq's move, it was Dr. Buss' move. Kobe also proved his worth as a Winner when he led the Lakers with Travis Knight, Smush Parker, and many other marginal players to a near upset of Phoenix, the #1 seed in the west. I never said one guy could win it by himself, so I don't even know why you brought the example up.

What I said is some guys are proven winners because they make the big shot, grab the key rebound, want the ball late when games are on the line, and they deliver in the clutch. They are Winners. You used LBJ as your example earlier. Of course he BECAME a proven winner when he decided to take the pressure of being the man, and delivered Miami a ring. He did go from Unproven clutch guy, to Winner. Most of that was about confidence, something else a winner must have........ Had LBJ never stepped up in the clutch, he would still be labeled a great talent, without the balls to be the man.

Howard puts up good numbers. He thrives on teams where he is the centerpiece of the offense, as challenged as he is offensively. Time will tell what he will become, but for now he shows no desire to put a team on his back. Dirk had the same label and he put Dallas on his back. He carved his name out as a WINNER. Many great players will come along and entertain, but few will get the label of Winner. Howard is yet to do anything to be called a winner.

By the way, Shaq is never a good example to use. Shaq is a freak of nature, who had the size, speed, and strength to show up in a wheelchair and go for 25 and 12........

 

[sperry]

I'll use your own examples to answer your questions: So what you are saying is every great player who played on great teams should have won a title right???? Why could Stockton/Malone and Kemp/Payton not overcome Jordan??? Did Utah not have equal or better talent than Chicago?? The difference was the best player in the game, MJ wouldn't allow his team to lose... to ANYONE. Take MJ off the Bulls and you get a good team as they were when he left. Put MJ on, and you win 6 titles with multiple rosters=WINNER.

Philadelphia once had an all-star lineup with McGinnis, Free, Toney, Jones, Dawkins, C. Jones, etc.... They had no proven leader/winner. They stuffed stat sheets and looked good doing it, but that great team, with great players won nothing, and usually lost to lesser teams.

The Lakers had Norm Nixon, Kareem, Wilkes, and a great bench. Couldn't get out of the 1st round of the playoffs. Add Magic Johnson, a proven winner, and they win 3 of 5 rings....... Similar story in Boston with Larry Legend.

For the record Shaq never forced anything with Miami. The Lakers decided on a younger Kobe and Shaq and his huge contract became expendable. It wasn't Shaq's move, it was Dr. Buss' move. Kobe also proved his worth as a Winner when he led the Lakers with Travis Knight, Smush Parker, and many other marginal players to a near upset of Phoenix, the #1 seed in the west. I never said one guy could win it by himself, so I don't even know why you brought the example up.

What I said is some guys are proven winners because they make the big shot, grab the key rebound, want the ball late when games are on the line, and they deliver in the clutch. They are Winners. You used LBJ as your example earlier. Of course he BECAME a proven winner when he decided to take the pressure of being the man, and delivered Miami a ring. He did go from Unproven clutch guy, to Winner. Most of that was about confidence, something else a winner must have........ Had LBJ never stepped up in the clutch, he would still be labeled a great talent, without the balls to be the man.

Howard puts up good numbers. He thrives on teams where he is the centerpiece of the offense, as challenged as he is offensively. Time will tell what he will become, but for now he shows no desire to put a team on his back. Dirk had the same label and he put Dallas on his back. He carved his name out as a WINNER. Many great players will come along and entertain, but few will get the label of Winner. Howard is yet to do anything to be called a winner.

By the way, Shaq is never a good example to use. Shaq is a freak of nature, who had the size, speed, and strength to show up in a wheelchair and go for 25 and 12........

Those Jazz teams didn't win championships because the Bulls, Rockets, and Spurs were better than them. It wasn't because Stockton and Malone were missing these mystical qualities you're alluding to. The Jazz didn't have equal or better talent than the Bulls.




Again, LeBron James as a player is pretty much the prime example of why these labels are nonsense. Plays on a bad Cleveland team, isn't a "winner." Plays on a really good Miami team, is a "winner." You say that Howard hasn't done anything to be called a "winner." What you mean is he hasn't played on a team good enough to win the championship. His own physical limitations play into that, but this notion that if you just sprinkled some magical "winner" dust on him and he'd suddenly get a championship ring is nonsense. Either he'll get to play on a team good enough to win a championship and will win one, or he won't.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

Those Jazz teams didn't win championships because the Bulls, Rockets, and Spurs were better than them. It wasn't because Stockton and Malone were missing these mystical qualities you're alluding to. The Jazz didn't have equal or better talent than the Bulls.




Again, LeBron James as a player is pretty much the prime example of why these labels are nonsense. Plays on a bad Cleveland team, isn't a "winner." Plays on a really good Miami team, is a "winner." You say that Howard hasn't done anything to be called a "winner." What you mean is he hasn't played on a team good enough to win the championship. His own physical limitations play into that, but this notion that if you just sprinkled some magical "winner" dust on him and he'd suddenly get a championship ring is nonsense. Either he'll get to play on a team good enough to win a championship and will win one, or he won't.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I appreciate the well thought out responses. No harm, no foul.

I will end my thoughts by saying this: You are greatly minimizing the great players known as elite winners, who graced the hardwood, fields, courses, etc in history. It's not about magic dust, mystical powers, etc..... It's about Magic Johnson going for 42 15 12 when his star Center was out, leading LA to a title in Philadelphia, against an evenly matched team who was not missing arguably the greatest offensive center ever. No dust would have allowed great players like Barkley and Malone to lead the Lakers that night. Magic led them because he is a WINNER. Karl Malone, thrust into a similar situation, stood at the free throw line with the chance to take down the mighty Bulls, and the great MJ. He clanked 2 free throws, and forever branded himself a great player who couldn't deliver in the clutch......

It's not about mystical powers, it's about MJ barely able to walk onto and off the court with 103 fever, but willing himself to single handedly closing the deal on another Bulls title, then needing to be carried off the court. WINNER

Great players named Barkley, Malone, Payton, Nash, Stockton, etc.. never delivered in those moments like the Magics and MJ's did. Those guys were great players and many played on great teams, but at the moment of truth, they didn't earn their place in the WINNERS conversation.

Another example is Robert Horry. He will never be mentioned as a great player, but he is often mentioned as a WINNER because each time Horry got the opportunity to knock down a big shot to seal the deal, he delivered in the clutch. He coveted the moment, and in the moment he delivered. Same with Chauncey Billups and that is why he is known as Mr. Big Shot, who won't show up on anybody's top 100 players of all time, but will always be considered a WINNER.

There is far more to being a WINNER than just saying someone played great on a great team. That statement minimizes all of the great ones who earned their title of WINNER on the court, and not because of some simplistic theory they only won because they were great players on great teams......

We as Sooner fans need look no further at OUr own to see hundreds of great players/great teams who won nothing.
Another name is Tony Romo. The guy has had some pretty salty talent around him, one of the best defenses in the last few years, and every opportunity to deliver in the clutch. The guy can't make a key play to save his life. Talented guy, good teams, minimal success. Do I need to name the QB's known as WINNERS because they led their team in that moment???

You named LaBron: In Cleveland Labron chose to let guys named Mo Williams, and Daniel Gibson take the big shot. He feared the moment and it is why he wasn't known as a winner. He wanted nothing to do with the moment in the spotlight. After doing the same the 1st yr in Miami and watching Dirk carry his team to a title, LBJ had a change of attitude. He said to himself, I'm the best player in the league. I should be the one decising if Miami wins or loses, not guys named Haslem and Miller. At that moment LBJ became ready to withstand the pressure of being a winner. If he had played like he does now when they faced Dallas, Miami would have won the series in 6.....IMO.

 

[bocabull]

Bill Plaschke on Dwight:


If the Lakers really wanted to keep Dwight, they would have kept him.

This is 100% accurate. The Lakers saw Howard as an asset they would like to keep, but on their terms only. Jerry Buss is who selected D'Antoni. They were not going to let Howard dictate the direction of the franchise. It's likely they wanted him under contract to trade away for a better asset that fits the lakers championship culture. Howard clearly didn't measure up.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

This is 100% accurate. The Lakers saw Howard as an asset they would like to keep, but on their terms only. Jerry Buss is who selected D'Antoni. They were not going to let Howard dictate the direction of the franchise. It's likely they wanted him under contract to trade away for a better asset that fits the lakers championship culture. Howard clearly didn't measure up.

START SARCASM************What the hell you talking about!!!!! Howard is a proven WINNER who just has NEVER played with a winning team. He will prove everyone wrong and lead Houston to multiple titles because all it takes is having a great player like Howard, and other great players to make up a great team.

LA should have ripped apart their history and their future for a guy as proven as Howard****************END SARCASM NOW.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

the last 10 posts= tldr

 

[One More Rebound]

Word coming out of ESPN that Dwight wanted The Lakers to amnesty Kobe, so he could recruit Chris Paul. Problem is, he and CP3 had 3 possible destinations: The Lakers, The Clippers, or The Hawks. The Lakers refused to amnesty Kobe, and Dwight's camp made it clear that DH didn't want to play with Kobe for the 2013/2014 season...

 

[WTSooner]

Word coming out of ESPN that Dwight wanted The Lakers to amnesty Kobe, so he could recruit Chris Paul. Problem is, he and CP3 had 3 possible destinations: The Lakers, The Clippers, or The Hawks. The Lakers refused to amnesty Kobe, and Dwight's camp made it clear that DH didn't want to play with Kobe for the 2013/2014 season...

lol

I'd take Kobe on his death bed as the "leader of a team" over Howard.

Howard himself makes it really hard for me to root for him or any team he is on.

 

[bocabull]

lol

I'd take Kobe on his death bed as the "leader of a team" over Howard.

Howard himself makes it really hard for me to root for him or any team he is on.

Exactly. Howard making these demands of the Lakers would be like Rhett Bomar demanding Stoops change offensive coordinators after his freshman season. You don't hand over the keys to the kingdom on potential. It has to be earned with abnormal hard work & talent.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

lol

I'd take Kobe on his death bed as the "leader of a team" over Howard.

Howard himself makes it really hard for me to root for him or any team he is on.

:clap:clap:clap

 

[NickZepp]

Kinda off topic but the Lakers lose World Peace to New York. Probably not really that big a deal overall for LA.