Don't know Who Will Win NC Game

[KBaden145]

Or maybe the rules changes and better athletes have made it tougher to officiate?

The athlete part of that is a weak excuse. Rule changes possibly. I just think the quality of the officials themselves and a disconnect with how basketball should be played/look is to blame. Too many foul calls and a real misunderstanding of what constitutes a foul. Poor communication among game officials and no accountability. Big 12 officiating has become exceptionally poor.

 

[campbest]

The athlete part of that is a weak excuse. Rule changes possibly. I just think the quality of the officials themselves and a disconnect with how basketball should be played/look is to blame. Big 12 officiating has become exceptionally poor.

I think there are too many "older" officials still working, but blame the coaches and ADs, they are the ones requesting these guys.

 

[Romulus]

I absolutely loved how the game was officiated. They let the kids decide it and not the refs.
Fun to watch.

The Burke call was bad but I think it surprised the ref how great the block turned out to be.

It was a mans game last night and not one for patsies. I'm guessing the squawk fans would be up in arms about this game.

 

[campbest]

The athlete part of that is a weak excuse. Rule changes possibly. I just think the quality of the officials themselves and a disconnect with how basketball should be played/look is to blame. Too many foul calls and a real misunderstanding of what constitutes a foul. Poor communication among game officials and no accountability. Big 12 officiating has become exceptionally poor.

How "should basketball be played"?

Too many foul calls? People were complaining that there weren't enough last night. Which is it?

The no accountability always makes me laugh, you do realize in the NCAA tournament, officials advance based on their grades from prior games?

 

[WTSooner]

I absolutely loved how the game was officiated. They let the kids decide it and not the refs.
Fun to watch.

The Burke call was bad but I think it surprised the ref how great the block turned out to be.

It was a mans game last night and not one for patsies. I'm guessing the squawk fans would be up in arms about this game.

Agreed 100%.

The only thing I ask from any officials/refs/umps is consistency. If you are going to let them play, let both teams play the entire game. If you are going to have a wide strike zone, have it both ways, all game. At that point, there is no edge given to either team, and it's up to them to adjust. That is part of sports. A big part.

And some calls are just going to be missed. The goaltending was clearly goaltending. They missed it. It happens.

 

[KBaden145]

How "should basketball be played"?

Too many foul calls? People were complaining that there weren't enough last night. Which is it?

The no accountability always makes me laugh, you do realize in the NCAA tournament, officials advance based on their grades from prior games?

I liked how the game last night was allowed to be played but there were still some blatantly bad calls. Im talking more generally. Basketball is meant to be free flowing but it is a contact sport. Contact is a necessary part of the game but too often officials are assuming contact has occurred when it didnt or the contact created an advantage when it didn't. Too many fouls make for a choppy game and too often miscommunication or a lack of communication among officials leads to inconsistent officiating. There is accountability for tournament officials but I don't see anything during the season to tell me they are truly held to any type of standard.

All this being said, I want consistently good officiating and that is not happening right now. I will take consistently poor officiating over inconsistent officiating all day. As long as it is consistent, then players and coaches can adjust.

 

[MsProudSooner]

The specific calls that mystified me were:

1) The calls where they attributed to foul to the wrong player. One of these would have been a 5th foul on a player, if I remember correctly.
2) The goal tending call that was a block in the second half.
3) The call in the first half that was called a block but was goal tending.
4) The blatant kicked ball in the second half that they just ignored. It wasn't an important call, but why do you just ignore it?

I don't mind when they have a 'no harm, no foul' mentality because that does keep the game going. I had no dog in this fight. I really didn't care who won. But I thought the officials did a really poor job.

 

[tycat947]

I absolutely loved how the game was officiated. They let the kids decide it and not the refs.
Fun to watch.

The Burke call was bad but I think it surprised the ref how great the block turned out to be.

It was a mans game last night and not one for patsies. I'm guessing the squawk fans would be up in arms about this game.

Well, we should just take officials out of the game then. No reason to get in the way of the kids playing the game. Get rid of all the rules except the clock!

 

[Smash Williams]

The athlete part of that is a weak excuse. Rule changes possibly. I just think the quality of the officials themselves and a disconnect with how basketball should be played/look is to blame. Too many foul calls and a real misunderstanding of what constitutes a foul. Poor communication among game officials and no accountability. Big 12 officiating has become exceptionally poor.

This is a completely subjective argument. Have you been grading officials on individual games over the last 20 years?

You mentioned the quality of officiating in the NBA. There is more money on the line than ever, the players are better, and yet the officiating is worse? The rules are also different from what they were 20 years ago, which is one of the main reasons the game isn't played the same way. The athlete part of it is a legitimate point. Athletic players draw more fouls, even if their defensive counterparts are now better athletes as well.

Nostalgia clouds people's judgment. Everything sports-related seems better in hindsight than it was at the time. There is this popular notion among sports fans that something new can't be as good as something old.

 

[KBaden145]

This is a completely subjective argument. Have you been grading officials on individual games over the last 20 years?

You mentioned the quality of officiating in the NBA. There is more money on the line than ever, the players are better, and yet the officiating is worse? The rules are also different from what they were 20 years ago, which is one of the main reasons the game isn't played the same way. The athlete part of it is a legitimate point. Athletic players draw more fouls, even if their defensive counterparts are now better athletes as well.

Nostalgia clouds people's judgment. Everything sports-related seems better in hindsight than it was at the time. There is this popular notion among sports fans that something new can't be as good as something old.

I would say I pay more attention to officiating than the average fan (my father was a HS and college official for 25-30 years) but not to that degree no.

Officials have to adjust to the athleticism. It just doesn't hold water as a legitimate excuse for me.

Nostalgia has nothing to do with this discussion but the 1980's version of college basketball and the NBA was much more enjoyable to watch. The way those games were officiated had some part in that.

 

[DenverSooner]

Or maybe the rules changes and better athletes have made it tougher to officiate?

What rule changes are you referencing?

I do not remotely believe the athletes are better. Modern professional sports have not been around long enough for humans to have evolved in any measurable way. Furthermore, 25+ years ago players tended to stay for 3 or more years. Therefore, you could actually argue the players are not as skilled today and the teams do not execute as well today.

I believe Larry Bird, Wayman Tisdale, Patrick Ewing, Michale Jordan, Clyde Drexler, and Magic Johnson (we could add a bunch of names) would all be great college players today (based on their ability when they were in college).

In fact, I would argue they would all be even better today due to the 3 point line. Everyone would have more space. The perimeter players would get more points for their 3 point shots.

It is possible that training techniques have improved but I would counter this with the fact that players were more fundamentally sound in the past because they were not trying to make highlight real plays due to the fact that there was way less media.

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

However the game should be called the talk the day after a great game like this should be all about the players and not the refs. Obviously they did something wrong to be a part of the story like this.

 

[KBaden145]

However the game should be called the talk the day after a great game like this should be all about the players and not the refs. Obviously they did something wrong to be a part of the story like this.

You're right, It was a great game. I was just responding to a post on a message board that discusses the game of basketball.

 

[campbest]

I liked how the game last night was allowed to be played but there were still some blatantly bad calls. Im talking more generally. Basketball is meant to be free flowing but it is a contact sport. Contact is a necessary part of the game but too often officials are assuming contact has occurred when it didnt or the contact created an advantage when it didn't. Too many fouls make for a choppy game and too often miscommunication or a lack of communication among officials leads to inconsistent officiating. There is accountability for tournament officials but I don't see anything during the season to tell me they are truly held to any type of standard.

All this being said, I want consistently good officiating and that is not happening right now. I will take consistently poor officiating over inconsistent officiating all day. As long as it is consistent, then players and coaches can adjust.

The information is there if you want to really track it.

Tom O'Neil, who botched the Iowa State-KU game, would have probably worked 3-4 rounds of the NCAA tournament like he did last year. This year, he only got one (Michigan State-Valparaiso) and then was not picked up again so he had to work the NIT.

There is accountability.

 

[campbest]

What rule changes are you referencing?

Three point line?
Restricted area?
Larger lane?
Contact above the shoulders?
Shot clock?

That was five in about 15 seconds.

I believe Larry Bird, Wayman Tisdale, Patrick Ewing, Michale Jordan, Clyde Drexler, and Magic Johnson (we could add a bunch of names) would all be great college players today (based on their ability when they were in college).

NBA hall of famers would have been good college players this year? Get out of here.

The best of the best would still be some of the stars, but the surrounding talent pool is so much deeper than it was 20-30-40 years ago. It isn't even really close.

 

[KBaden145]

The information is there if you want to really track it.

Tom O'Neil, who botched the Iowa State-KU game, would have probably worked 3-4 rounds of the NCAA tournament like he did last year. This year, he only got one (Michigan State-Valparaiso) and then was not picked up again so he had to work the NIT.

There is accountability.

Have to take your word for it. Which game affecting call in that game was his? There were two horrendous officiating mistakes in that particular game.

 

[campbest]

Have to take your word for it. Which game affecting call in that game was his? There were two horrendous officiating mistakes in that particular game.

Not sure which one had the each call, but Bert Smith and O'Neil were the offending parties (from my memory). Both had early round exits in the tournament.

 

[KBaden145]

Not sure which one had the each call, but Bert Smith and O'Neil were the offending parties (from my memory). Both had early round exits in the tournament.

They each got assignments despite their part in that game, correct?

 

[Smash Williams]

I do not remotely believe the athletes are better. Modern professional sports have not been around long enough for humans to have evolved in any measurable way.

How about track and field records being shattered, despite far more stringent drug testing?

If no one ever recorded those results, there would be people arguing that Carl Lewis was faster than Usain Bolt.

 

[Smash Williams]

I would say I pay more attention to officiating than the average fan (my father was a HS and college official for 25-30 years) but not to that degree no.

Officials have to adjust to the athleticism. It just doesn't hold water as a legitimate excuse for me.

Nostalgia has nothing to do with this discussion but the 1980's version of college basketball and the NBA was much more enjoyable to watch. The way those games were officiated had some part in that.

It's easier to officiate a junior high game than it is an NBA game. Officials have to adjust to the athleticism, but it makes it more difficult.

If you think officiating is worse nowadays, I can't disprove that. However, I find it hard to believe that officials are not held more accountable and evaluated more thoroughly than they were in the past. There is just so much more at stake. With more televised games, more media coverage, more replays, DVR, etc., every aspect of the game gets so heavily scrutinized that it warps public opinion.