Self - KU - They have No Talent, Media

[dubyac]

It's not trolling to point out the ridiculousness of his argument.

Using all-time wins to put kansas ahead of UCLA, UNC, etc. is dumb... as would be using the same statistic to put UT ahead of OU.

When you don't have a top program you try to pick & chose your argument to be one... Really what makes you a top 5 program in hoops, is it history? wins? Final fours? Or championships?... It's clearly a combination of all... & KU is certainly top 5 program..

 

[Sawyer]

you're just trying to provoke people. OU is a WAY better football program than Texas.

And Kansas doesn't even compare to Indiana. Kansas is way better. UCLA right now is certainly not a top 5 program.

I didn't say they weren't.

Indiana is certainly among the top five all-time best programs. Are they in the top five today? No. But that's not the issue here. The claim was made that Self is a top 30 coach at a top 5 program, and he benefits from that. But if you're talking only about where the programs are today and aren't factoring history, then the point changes entirely (because kansas is what they are now largely because of Self).

 

[TheGimper]

Kentucky
UNC
Duke
UCLA
Indiana

Those are the top five programs in the nation.

kansas is clearly among the next 2-3. They are not, however, in the top five.

I assume you are basing your rankings off # of National Championships. Thus by trying to goad Sooner fans by saying Texas is a better football program that makes your basketball rankings invalid by the same measure.

However, if Kansas does beat Kentucky, that gives them the same amount of NC as Duke and if they have more total wins does that make them a top 5 program in your eyes?

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

Your activity on this board has REALLY veered into trollville lately. Things not going well at home?

He's had a lot of spare time on his hands with no games to peak his interest.

So how is Indiana #5? What is this, 1987? Since IU won its last title KU has won 2 and been runner up 2 more times. IU was runner up once. And, how do we define top programs? Wins and titles from 40 years ago? 30 win seasons? Top recruits?

 

[Sawyer]

I assume you are basing your rankings off # of National Championships. Thus by trying to goad Sooner fans by saying Texas is a better football program that makes your basketball rankings invalid by the same measure.

However, if Kansas does beat Kentucky, that gives them the same amount of NC as Duke and if they have more total wins does that make them a top 5 program in your eyes?

My suggestion that UT was a better program was intended to do the opposite: use his standards to make a claim none here would agree with, highlighting the flaws in his methodology.

Regarding Indiana's recent (25 or so years) fall from the elite level, for the purposes of this thread I'm not factoring in recency. In time, I expect they'll get back to that level, and without favoring more recent accomplishments I still say their five national titles trump what kansas has done.

That said, I've said on here many times that I don't consider history all that relevant in terms of predicting future success. I care about the present and the future, not the past. And using only that metric, kansas is still a borderline top 5 program (still would put them behind Duke, UK, Michigan State, UConn if they were without NCAA issues and Calhoun weren't on the brink of retirement, and arguably Florida (although their back to back titles are verging on irrelevance) and UNC). But this is flexible and could change quickly. UConn's just about done being elite IMO. Florida has slipped. kansas loses a lot this year and doesn't have much proven talent ready to take over (the fall back to the pack that many, myself included, predicted for this year could come a season late).

But really... my first post in this thread precedes all others in relevance to my real opinion on this. Trying to quantify this sort of thing really is pointless. I said they were among the better (not best; they have no claim on that word) programs. They're definitely in the elite class historically and today.

 

[WaymanFan]

Bill Self is definitely one of the 5 best coaches in the NCAA. I hesitate to put him in the top 3 because Kansas has lost 4 NCAA Tournament games to seeds that were 7+ levels below KU since he's been head coach. Still, this is not the second best talented team in the country...yet they'll be playing tomorrow night.

As for Indiana vs. Kansas, 10 years ago I would have given the Hoosiers a slight edge in tradition due to the fact they had won 5 titles to the 'Hawks 2. I had also thought the top 4 (not in order) were Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke and UCLA. While I'm not ready to put Kansas in the top 4, they have definitely surpassed Indiana after 10 years of mediocrity coupled with the previous 10 years of being basically "good, but not great."

20 years of not being a true national power is way too long to go without losing a spot or two in the all-time trasditional powers ranking. I just can't see the argument that winning 5 titles vs. 3 trumps two decades of not being even close to a national power.

 

[DenverSooner]

Bill Self is definitely one of the 5 best coaches in the NCAA. I hesitate to put him in the top 3 because Kansas has lost 4 NCAA Tournament games to seeds that were 7+ levels below KU since he's been head coach. Still, this is not the second best talented team in the country...yet they'll be playing tomorrow night.

As for Indiana vs. Kansas, 10 years ago I would have given the Hoosiers a slight edge in tradition due to the fact they had won 5 titles to the 'Hawks 2. I had also thought the top 4 (not in order) were Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke and UCLA. While I'm not ready to put Kansas in the top 4, they have definitely surpassed Indiana after 10 years of mediocrity coupled with the previous 10 years of being basically "good, but not great."

20 years of not being a true national power is way too long to go without losing a spot or two in the all-time trasditional powers ranking. I just can't see the argument that winning 5 titles vs. 3 trumps two decades of not being even close to a national power.

I don't think the upsets matter that much. The NCAA has taken steps to make basketball more competitive. The 3 point line gives the little guy a chance. 13 scholarships gives the little guy a chance. Self should have suffered more upsets than Wooden because times are different. (I am not implying Self is a better coach than Wooden)

 

[stoops4pres]

I didn't say they weren't.

Indiana is certainly among the top five all-time best programs. Are they in the top five today? No. But that's not the issue here. The claim was made that Self is a top 30 coach at a top 5 program, and he benefits from that. But if you're talking only about where the programs are today and aren't factoring history, then the point changes entirely (because kansas is what they are now largely because of Self).

Actually, you have in fact made a similar statement before. Seem to remember you making the absurd claim that Texas has a compelling argument to claim they have been a better football program than OU since 1996 (the inception of the Big 12).