Young talent? Mid-Major Talent? Bad coaching?

[thebigabd]

Alright, there seems to be some disagreement on the board about OU's talent level. A lot of people (myself included) have maintained that OU has mid-major players in prominent roles, while others think they are just young.

Here is how I would break it down:

High-Major Players
Cameron Clark
Romero Osby
Calvin Newell
Tyler Neal

Low-Level BCS Players (guys who play a role for teams like Nebraska, Oregon State, Ole Miss, etc)
Andrew Fitzgerald
Steven Pledger

Mid-Major Players
Carl Blair
Barry Honore
CJ Washington

Unknown
Sam Grooms
Casey Arent

 

[luckyc1423]

Alright, there seems to be some disagreement on the board about OU's talent level. A lot of people (myself included) have maintained that OU has mid-major players in prominent roles, while others think they are just young.

Here is how I would break it down:

High-Major Players
Cameron Clark
Romero Osby
Calvin Newell
Tyler Neal

Low-Level BCS Players (guys who play a role for teams like Nebraska, Oregon State, Ole Miss, etc)
Andrew Fitzgerald
Steven Pledger

Mid-Major Players
Carl Blair
Barry Honore
CJ Washington

Unknown
Sam Grooms
Casey Arent

I agree with your assesment. Although I think with clark, osby, and newell they are all three high level scorers. So good coaching should still produce a good season. I expect a NCAA trip, hopefully my hopes arent to high.

 

[seniorsooner]

I'd say that's a fair assessment, although I'm not sure we can put Newell and Neal in that top category just yet. Bottom line is we are going to have to significantly increase our talent level for us to get back anywhere near the top of this league.

 

[seniorsooner]

I agree with your assesment. Although I think with clark, osby, and newell they are all three high level scorers. So good coaching should still produce a good season. I expect a NCAA trip, hopefully my hopes arent to high.

If you "expect" a NCAA trip and will be disappointed if it doesn't happen then yes your expectations are way too high.

 

[boksooner]

Alright, there seems to be some disagreement on the board about OU's talent level. A lot of people (myself included) have maintained that OU has mid-major players in prominent roles, while others think they are just young.

Here is how I would break it down:

High-Major Players
Cameron Clark
Romero Osby
Calvin Newell
Tyler Neal

Low-Level BCS Players (guys who play a role for teams like Nebraska, Oregon State, Ole Miss, etc)
Andrew Fitzgerald
Steven Pledger

Mid-Major Players
Carl Blair
Barry Honore
CJ Washington

Unknown
Sam Grooms
Casey Arent

I agree that this is a fair assessment. I am not certain that Neal and Newel are there, yet, but they definitely have the potential to be a high level BCS contributors.

I still think that Fitz and Pledger have a shot to be solid contributors with the right coaching. I would classify them as situation players on a high BCS team. Pledger as a shooter off the bench and Fitz as a situational low post scorer. They are both too one dimensional to be full time players, but Fitz has shown touch around the basket and Pledger has shown that he can shoot, when he's hot. You don't score the way that they both did, at times last year, without having offensive talent.

 

[WTSooner]

No offense bigabd, but your bias is showing.

How can you put Newell and Neal in a category above Fitz and Pledger?

Fitz was ranked around 70th in his class, Pledger somewhere between 100-125. Newell either wasn't ranked, or was definitely behind Pledger, and Neal certainly wasn't ranked.

Now, I know recruiting rankings aren't everything, but that is pretty telling. Pledger will likely get more PT this year then Newell, and the two are in direct competition for playing time. Neal could barely get PT last year on a turrrible team. I know he was a frosh, but if ever there was a kid that is the definition of low end BCS, or possibly mid-major, it is Neal. I also think that Blair is at least low end BCS.

Mid major talent is a pretty tacky tag to be throwing around. Sometimes it fits, often times it does not. A lot of the mid majors recruit on par, at least partially, with the bigger schools, save the powerhouses. That is why you see those teams making more noise in the NCAA then ever before.

Kelvin Sampson won a TON of games with players that you would probably tag as mid major, or at least, low end BCS. Lets way and see how LK can coach these guys up before we throw them under the bus. A lot of recruiting people thought much higher of some of our guys then our own fans do.

 

[thebigabd]

How can you put Newell and Neal in a category above Fitz and Pledger?

Newell and Neal do not have the athletic limitations that Fitz and Pledger have. Like others have said, they are good situational players. They are guys who can do 1 thing because they have limitations in skill and in athletic ability.

Newell and Neal = Big Time Athletes who can shoot just as well as Pledger.
Pledger = Average at best athlete.
Fitz = Below average athlete.

The potential of Newell and Neal is obvious, while the limitations of Fitz/Pledge are even more obvious.

Dont trust me, trust Lon Kruger. He practrically spells that out:

On Junior Guard Steven Pledger:
"Steven's a guy who can make shots."
-Kruger

On Junior Forward Andrew Fitzgerald:
"Andrew's a guy who appears to have a knack to score."
-Kruger

On Sophomore Guard Calvin Newell
"Calvin's a guy who has a ton of ability."
-Kruger

On Sophomore Forward Tyler Neal:
"Tyler will give us the versatility of playing an undersized inside position or as a bigger guy on the perimeter."
-Kruger

He thinks Newell and Neal have the athletic ability and talent to do everything on a basketball court, and he thinks Fitz and Pledge can do one thing. Which is what others have said as well.

 

[BigTime]

Fitzgerald had offers to Louisville, Pitt, Tennesse, Marquette and Minnesota.
To say he is "Mid-Major Talent" is simply untrue.

Tyler Neal is Mid-Major Talent.

And speaking of limitations, Newell is a 6 foot SG in the Big 12 who is not a pure shooter.

Put me in the camp that thinks that OU needs an infusion of talent to compete for Big 12 titles. Let's all hope that Osby and Grooms are the real deal.

 

[thebigabd]

Fitzgerald had offers to Louisville, Pitt, Tennesse, Marquette and Minnesota.
To say he is "Mid-Major Talent" is simply untrue.

Tyler Neal is Mid-Major Talent.

And speaking of limitations, Newell is a 6 foot SG in the Big 12 who is not a pure shooter.

Put me in the camp that thinks that OU needs an infusion of talent to compete for Big 12 titles. Let's all hope that Osby and Grooms are the real deal.

Fitz wouldnt sniff the floor at any of those shools and you know it.

 

[BigTime]

Fitz wouldnt sniff the floor at any of those shools and you know it.

Check out his numbers against Texas and Kansas. He would make a fine backup post in any system as the guy is instant offense.

I'm not saying that he is all Big 12 but to act like the guy doesn't belong in the Big 12 is ludacris when he was one of the top post scorers in the league last year as a sophomore.

 

[campbest]

Fitz wouldnt sniff the floor at any of those shools and you know it.

C'mon now, Fitz could definitely get PT at Tennessee and Minnesota, there is no doubt about that.

 

[WTSooner]

Fitz wouldnt sniff the floor at any of those shools and you know it.

You have a warped sense of player evaluations. lol

Fitz' biggest problem at OU is that he has had to be the best or second best player on the floor nearly always, and he was the best post we had last year.

If you put Fitz on some of the OU teams Kelvin had.....put him on a team where he isn't the best player, he'd look a TON better. Same with Pledger. That hasn't been the case in their time at OU, and that may not change this year, but next year, it should. And I bet you see a difference in their play.

 

[WTSooner]

Tyler Neal is Mid-Major Talent.

And speaking of limitations, Newell is a 6 foot SG in the Big 12 who is not a pure shooter.

Put me in the camp that thinks that OU needs an infusion of talent to compete for Big 12 titles. Let's all hope that Osby and Grooms are the real deal.

:clap

Very well said.

 

[campbest]

Let's also definte what "mid-major talent" means...you mean like Butler and VCU? Or how about the other Colonial Conferenc teams that seem to make the dance almost every year in Old Dominion and George Mason? What about St. Mary's/Gonzaga?

 

[BigTime]

You have a warped sense of player evaluations. lol

Fitz' biggest problem at OU is that he has had to be the best or second best player on the floor nearly always, and he was the best post we had last year.

If you put Fitz on some of the OU teams Kelvin had.....put him on a team where he isn't the best player, he'd look a TON better. Same with Pledger. That hasn't been the case in their time at OU, and that may not change this year, but next year, it should. And I bet you see a difference in their play.

Pledger is the one that I am hoping will really look better under Kruger imo. Capel's offense often times had the guards creating their shot off the dribble. Pledge is a catch and shoot guy that likes his shot on the left wing. NOW, once he is feeling it then he can branch out and knock down his shot of the dribble but you've got to get him going with catch and shoot shots first.

 

[WTSooner]

Pledger is the one that I am hoping will really look better under Kruger imo. Capel's offense often times had the guards creating their shot off the dribble. Pledge is a catch and shoot guy that likes his shot on the left wing. NOW, once he is feeling it then he can branch out and knock down his shot of the dribble but you've got to get him going with catch and shoot shots first.

Agreed, that is what I've been saying since Capel left. Pledger needs plays run for him. He needs to come off screens. Offensively, I think Pledger gains the most from LK, but I think both Pledger/Fitz have a chance to improve on defense. And both need to.

 

[BigTime]

Agreed, that is what I've been saying since Capel left. Pledger needs plays run for him. He needs to come off screens. Offensively, I think Pledger gains the most from LK, but I think both Pledger/Fitz have a chance to improve on defense. And both need to.[/QUOTE]

Getting Pledge, Fitz, and Blair to improve greatly on defense will be the key to our season imo. I have already resigned myself to the fact that we won't be outrebounding anyone. Gotta have some solid halfcourt D with Kruger's extended, get in the passing lanes Man to Man leading to some transition buckets.

I sure hope that Grooms is a solid defender and that Osby can defend the post.

 

[WTSooner]

Gotta have some solid halfcourt D with Kruger's extended, get in the passing lanes Man to Man leading to some transition buckets.

That, or play solid man, force jump shots, send 5 guys to rebound, and walk the ball up. Hate to say it, but that may be our best chance this year.

 

[BigTime]

That, or play solid man, force jump shots, send 5 guys to rebound, and walk the ball up. Hate to say it, but that may be our best chance this year.

You are probably right. I just think Cam and Romero have the potential to be really good in transition.

 

[DenverSooner]

Fitz = Below average athlete.

Fitzgerald needs to improve his defense and his rebounding on both ends of the floor but to call him a below average athlete doesn't really seem fair. He started as a sophomore which is a big accomplishment for any Big XII player. On top of that he was the 20th leading scorer in the conference. There are 13 guys on 12 teams or 156 Big XII players. Andrew Fitzgerald out scored 136 of those guys. That is way better than below average. In fact, it is in the top 15% for scoring.

Andrew is not fast and does not have a big vertical but the guy is a good basketball player. He just needs to improve in some other areas.

Additionally, fans need to acknowledge that he was forced to play the post by himself. He had zero help from another PF/C. Had he been paired with another post player (rather than Cade Davis and/or Cam Clark - and I am not insulting these guys they are just perimeter players) he may have been more effective defensively and on the boards.

I have a lot of respect for Andrew Fitzgerald. He made a mistake as a freshman and came in overweight but he worked really hard a made a lot of progress last year. I am hoping his defense and rebounding improve this year. If he works on blocking out, I think he can add a couple of boards a game which takes him from being a bad rebounder to being an exceptable rebounder. I also think he can become an average defender. When he does that, he will be a very nice forward in this conference.