Congratulations to Villanova on winning the National Championship!

[Swans]

Post again, I will pay attention this time.



And nobody gives a damn or recognizes the winner of the tournament as the conference champion.

And, they don't hand out a regular season championship at the national level. Only the tournament champion is recognized as the National Champion.



Yes, doing very well. Thank you.

Actually the NCAA gives a damn. That's why they give the automatic bid from each conference to the conference tourney champion. They recognize the conference tourney champs as the true conference champs....not the regular season champs. ISU wins the conference tournament and gets the automatic bid as the conference champion and KU gets an at large for a great season.

 

[thebigabd]

Actually the NCAA gives a damn. That's why they give the automatic bid from each conference to the conference tourney champion. They recognize the conference tourney champs as the true conference champs....not the regular season champs. ISU wins the conference tournament and gets the automatic bid as the conference champion and KU gets an at large for a great season.

Yet Kansas cuts down nets, puts on T-shirts, hats, and hangs banners in their arena and they don't win a tournament to get it.

I can't believe anyone defends this with a straight face.

 

[chuckb]

That was a really long-winded way to say you don't know what a straw man argument is.

What's funny is that he sort of defines a straw man argument while railing against people saying, "that's a straw man argument." :ez-laugh:

 

[skyvue]

Yet Kansas cuts down nets, puts on T-shirts, hats, and hangs banners in their arena and they don't win a tournament to get it.

I can't believe anyone defends this with a straight face.

And I can't believe you continue to harp on this silly point with a straight face. I suspect you actually don't have a straight face, that you're trolling for the fun of it. But just in case you actually mean what you're saying:

A conference title is roughly akin to division titles in professional sports.

There's no tourney to decide the NL East champ in MLB.
There's no tourney to decide the NFC East champ in the NFL.
There's no tourney to decide the Atlantic division champ in the NHL.

You win those divisions during the regular season and then you move on to face the winners (and wild cards) from other divisions in the rough equivalent of the Big Dance.

Especially in the Big 12, where all 10 team play each other twice, the conference tourney has no purpose whatsoever except to make money and on very rare occasions (VERY rare) to give a Big 12 team that wouldn't otherwise make it entry into the NCAA tourney.

The notion that a team that gets hot for one weekend deserves the conference title over a team that performed well for two-plus months is just silly. And I suspect you well know it and are just yanking chains.

The next time OU wins the regular-season title, I'm going to be yelling loud and long as they don commemorative tees and cut down the nets. And if they go on to lose in the Big 12, I'll have no desire to change a thing. Because I'd MUCH rather have the regular season title than the tourney championship.

 

[Swans]

Yet Kansas cuts down nets, puts on T-shirts, hats, and hangs banners in their arena and they don't win a tournament to get it.

I can't believe anyone defends this with a straight face.

I'm not defending it. This is how it is!!! I can't believe anyone who knows anything about the history of the NCAA tournament doesn't grasp this fact. And, Iowa St. cut down the nets, put on t-shirts, hats and will hang a banner in their arena after winning a tournament to receive the AUTOMATIC invite to the big dance.

The last vestiges of a time when only conference champions went to the NCAA tournament and they were chosen by an end of season conference tournament.....or in the Big Ten's case the regular season champ...because they had no tournament. Pay attention now as I wrap this up for you. In the end, it's all about the..... $$$.

 

[cvangild]

And this is me also "just saying" that you need to cease and desist calling trav names. I may be old and fat but I can still sit on someone.

trav saying "straw man" is his nice manner of not kicking your a$$ 9 different ways from Sunday.

now if you wish to argue that yours is a comparable example then please do so. and support such a statement. with empirical examples if possible. then we can all nod our heads in agreement with you.

You have to be able to catch me to be able to sit on me!!!!!

And I've never threatened anyone one here. Come on man, you're better than that.

 

[Matthew G]

I don't even understand the argument here.

The best team in the country doesn't always win the tournament. I don't understand how that's a hard concept? Yes, we award national titles based on that, same in football, etc. etc. Do the same in the pros.


I don't think most OU fans here would argue that KU was the better team in 1988 because they won the title? I'd argue most here would say OU was the best team that year, and it was proven in the regular season.

Most would also argue KU was better than OU last year, considering they beat us head to head. I wouldn't say they're head and shoulders better, but they were better than us. Yet, we made the final four and they didn't. We added the final four banner to our arena, they didn't.

 

[sperry]

I don't even understand the argument here.

The best team in the country doesn't always win the tournament. I don't understand how that's a hard concept? Yes, we award national titles based on that, same in football, etc. etc. Do the same in the pros.


I don't think most OU fans here would argue that KU was the better team in 1988 because they won the title? I'd argue most here would say OU was the best team that year, and it was proven in the regular season.

Most would also argue KU was better than OU last year, considering they beat us head to head. I wouldn't say they're head and shoulders better, but they were better than us. Yet, we made the final four and they didn't. We added the final four banner to our arena, they didn't.

His argument is that we always call the team that wins the regular season the conference champion, so what's the point of having the tournament. And I think it's pretty decent logic. Maybe this is just due to 15 years of our ineptitude in the tourney, but I just don't give a crap about the Big XII tourney because it's meaningless.

 

[Maverick008]

His argument is that we always call the team that wins the regular season the conference champion, so what's the point of having the tournament. And I think it's pretty decent logic. Maybe this is just due to 15 years of our ineptitude in the tourney, but I just don't give a crap about the Big XII tourney because it's meaningless.

Conference tournaments basically have one purpose and that purpose doesn't really include everyone. That purpose is to give teams that have some talent but for some reason or another didn't have that good of a regular season, a shot at the NCAA tournament. Teams like a Rhode Island in a Mid-major conference who had high expectations coming into the season only to have injuries/mediocre play derail those hopes. Until the conference tournament where they turned it on and ending up winning it all and getting into the only post season tournament that matters. The regular season matters in regards to showing us who for the most part has enough talent to possibly win the NCAA tournament. If you play enough "solid" teams and have a good enough record to get an invitation to the tourney congrats to you but THAT doesn't even tell us who is the best team in the country. Regular season rankings are pointless in my opinion. Unless every team played the same schedule as the next team, it's impossible to really tell who the "best" team is based off a w/l record. And as other's have pointed out, and if you've ever played a tournament format in anything, you know, you don't HAVE to be the best at what you are playing/doing, you just have to be the better team/person that moment/day. That's what makes this so much fun (for most any way). If you only watch to figure out who is the best, you should probably find something else to do .

 

[Matthew G]

His argument is that we always call the team that wins the regular season the conference champion, so what's the point of having the tournament. And I think it's pretty decent logic. Maybe this is just due to 15 years of our ineptitude in the tourney, but I just don't give a crap about the Big XII tourney because it's meaningless.

It's been said many times though that conference tournaments are only there for money and to get teams into the NCAA tournament. The NCAA tournament is there for money as well. The best team doesn't win it every year, but it's entertaining. Same for football. Does anyone really think when the Patriots lost the Super Bowl after going undefeated that they weren't as good as the NYG?

Does anyone think when UK went undefeated but lost in the final four that they weren't the best team?


Does anyone think OU last year was better than KU because we went farther? Does anyone think Syracuse was one of the 4 best teams?

 

[skyvue]

It's been said many times though that conference tournaments are only there for money and to get teams into the NCAA tournament. The NCAA tournament is there for money as well. The best team doesn't win it every year, but it's entertaining. Same for football. Does anyone really think when the Patriots lost the Super Bowl after going undefeated that they weren't as good as the NYG?

Does anyone think when UK went undefeated but lost in the final four that they weren't the best team?


Does anyone think OU last year was better than KU because we went farther? Does anyone think Syracuse was one of the 4 best teams?

No one thinks any of those things. And sometimes a wild card team wins the Super Bowl or the World Series.

But division titles in pro sports are decided during the regular season, and many -- perhaps even most of us -- feel that that conference titles should be won the same way. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[thebigabd]

And I can't believe you continue to harp on this silly point with a straight face. I suspect you actually don't have a straight face, that you're trolling for the fun of it. But just in case you actually mean what you're saying:

A conference title is roughly akin to division titles in professional sports.

There's no tourney to decide the NL East champ in MLB.
There's no tourney to decide the NFC East champ in the NFL.
There's no tourney to decide the Atlantic division champ in the NHL.

You win those divisions during the regular season and then you move on to face the winners (and wild cards) from other divisions in the rough equivalent of the Big Dance.

Especially in the Big 12, where all 10 team play each other twice, the conference tourney has no purpose whatsoever except to make money and on very rare occasions (VERY rare) to give a Big 12 team that wouldn't otherwise make it entry into the NCAA tourney.

The notion that a team that gets hot for one weekend deserves the conference title over a team that performed well for two-plus months is just silly. And I suspect you well know it and are just yanking chains.

The next time OU wins the regular-season title, I'm going to be yelling loud and long as they don commemorative tees and cut down the nets. And if they go on to lose in the Big 12, I'll have no desire to change a thing. Because I'd MUCH rather have the regular season title than the tourney championship.

Couple of points here:

1.) I don't buy the division champ thing as it relates to this. The conference awards a Conference Champion to a team, period. And it is abundantly clear that the Regular Season champ is thought more highly of than the Tournament Champion. Who won our conference this year? Iowa State or Kansas? Almost everyone will say Kansas won the Big 12 this year. They bought t-shirts, hats, cut down nets, and Bill Self gets to claim he won the league again. Nobody REALLY cares about the Big 12 tournament.

2.) You say it's silly to crown the tournament champ, who got hot, as the one and only conference champion because KU displayed they were they best team through the regular season. I just attempted to do that same thing, the EXACT same logic, with Villanova, and it was rejected. Villanova will not cut down the nets, buy t-shirts, and hang a national championship banner because of their regular season? Why not?

They were the #1 overall seed... Had 12 RPI top 50 wins (most in country)... didn't lose to anyone who isn't in the NCAA Tournament... Best record in Big East regular season and won Big east tournament title.

Now South Carolina is in the Final Four, a 7 seed. They get the glory, not Villanova.

You see, Skyvue, the regular season doesn't mean anything. Players take nights off, players sit with injuries, players have school, and finals, and girlfriends, etc. They play on and off their home court, they have weird travel requirements, they have quick turn-arounds between Saturday and Monday games, etc. All of these things go into whether you win or lose a game. The regular season is a grind, a long 5-6 month grind.

There are tons of variables that shape a regular season... but tournament play puts teams on a neutral court, with 100% focus and attention, and a champion is determined that way.

If South Carolina wins will you not recognize them as the National Champion? Why not? They are just some team that got hot? So that means the only team you will recognize as the national champion is the team you THINK is the actual best team? That's flat out what you guys are saying... "Does anyone really think so and so is the best team?" is the sentiment that I keep reading. It doesn't matter who you think is the best team, they aren't the champion, they didn't win the damn tournament.

Under your logic, Skyvue, the real national champion is Villanova.. South Carolina is potentially some scab team that just got lucky/hot at the right time.

So jump on board, I am using your logic Skyvue... Villanova is the champion.

Are they not?

 

[Sooner04]

It's going to be a LONG offseason.

 

[skyvue]

1.) I don't buy the division champ thing as it relates to this. The conference awards a Conference Champion to a team, period. And it is abundantly clear that the Regular Season champ is thought more highly of than the Tournament Champion. Who won our conference this year? Iowa State or Kansas? Almost everyone will say Kansas won the Big 12 this year. They bought t-shirts, hats, cut down nets, and Bill Self gets to claim he won the league again. Nobody REALLY cares about the Big 12 tournament.

2.) You say it's silly to crown the tournament champ, who got hot, as the one and only conference champion because KU displayed they were they best team through the regular season. I just attempted to do that same thing, the EXACT same logic, with Villanova, and it was rejected. Villanova will not cut down the nets, buy t-shirts, and hang a national championship banner because of their regular season? Why not?

1. I'm not sure how this paragraph is counter to my stance. You're right, no one really cares about the conference tourney (except for getting to watch more basketball). You've not said why you don't buy the comparison to division titles -- probably because it's an apt comparison that doesn't serve your argument. Division titles are decided by regular season play, just as conference titles are/should be.

2. The glaring difference between KU being conference champs and Villanova being proclaimed national champs without winning the tourney is obvious: KU played every team in the conference (and since it was the Big 12, they played them twice, home and away). Villanova didn't play every every team -- or even every quality team -- in the country. It couldn't. Apples and oranges.

And most of the issues you raised about the regular season -- quick turnarounds, travel, injuries, etc. -- can and do apply to the tourney (quick turnarounds? The tourney is filled with quick turnarounds).

I'm going to move on now and let you keep trolling. Perhaps someone else will engage with you.

 

[SoonerTraveler]

This seems to be the latest endless argument (recurring complaint) among passionate fans of OU basketball.

> Red vs. orange chair backs in the LNC
> Build a new arena vs. update the LNC
> Tournament vs. regular season
> How to improve attendance at games
> Plenty of other stuff

The same arguments are made, over and over again. Sometimes the arguments go on for years and years. Both sides see the superior logic (or visual color accuracy) of their position. No one convinces anyone else to change their opinion.

Sports. Politics. Any topic. People’s brains just process the world they see in different ways. Observing this can be fascinating or tiresome, depending on the mood of the observer.

It is great to be an American, as we have plenty of disposable time to spend on typing and reading about such matters.

It is a blessing to become old, as the passion raised by such trivial matters wanes with age. Yet, I read on, and reply on occasion. Even an old fart sometimes passes gas on the topic of the day. At other times, I think to myself: who cares? What is the big deal here? One answer seems to be, as humans, we have to have something to talk about. Plus, we enjoy argument. It must be fun as we do it so often.

Sorry about the soapbox. I cannot help myself sometimes. Even though I have met very few of you, I feel like sharing my thoughts with my friends. Sometimes I am reactive. Sometimes I am reflective. Sometimes I go to Bricktown or the Deep Deuce to have beers with my buddies. That is the plan for tonight, as we will argue, and discuss, and ultimately solve all the problems of the world. We do occasionally get mad at each other, but thankfully, we get over it. We are never going to change each others opinions, even when we drink Scotch.

 

[coolm]

This seems to be the latest endless argument (recurring complaint) among passionate fans of OU basketball.

> Red vs. orange chair backs in the LNC
> Build a new arena vs. update the LNC
> Tournament vs. regular season
> How to improve attendance at games
> Plenty of other stuff

The same arguments are made, over and over again. Sometimes the arguments go on for years and years.

We're been having the same discussions since John McLeod was the coach. Exact same arguments actually.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

Couple of points here:

1.) I don't buy the division champ thing as it relates to this. The conference awards a Conference Champion to a team, period. And it is abundantly clear that the Regular Season champ is thought more highly of than the Tournament Champion. Who won our conference this year? Iowa State or Kansas? Almost everyone will say Kansas won the Big 12 this year. They bought t-shirts, hats, cut down nets, and Bill Self gets to claim he won the league again. Nobody REALLY cares about the Big 12 tournament.

2.) You say it's silly to crown the tournament champ, who got hot, as the one and only conference champion because KU displayed they were they best team through the regular season. I just attempted to do that same thing, the EXACT same logic, with Villanova, and it was rejected. Villanova will not cut down the nets, buy t-shirts, and hang a national championship banner because of their regular season? Why not?

They were the #1 overall seed... Had 12 RPI top 50 wins (most in country)... didn't lose to anyone who isn't in the NCAA Tournament... Best record in Big East regular season and won Big east tournament title.

Now South Carolina is in the Final Four, a 7 seed. They get the glory, not Villanova.

You see, Skyvue, the regular season doesn't mean anything. Players take nights off, players sit with injuries, players have school, and finals, and girlfriends, etc. They play on and off their home court, they have weird travel requirements, they have quick turn-arounds between Saturday and Monday games, etc. All of these things go into whether you win or lose a game. The regular season is a grind, a long 5-6 month grind.

There are tons of variables that shape a regular season... but tournament play puts teams on a neutral court, with 100% focus and attention, and a champion is determined that way.

If South Carolina wins will you not recognize them as the National Champion? Why not? They are just some team that got hot? So that means the only team you will recognize as the national champion is the team you THINK is the actual best team? That's flat out what you guys are saying... "Does anyone really think so and so is the best team?" is the sentiment that I keep reading. It doesn't matter who you think is the best team, they aren't the champion, they didn't win the damn tournament.

Under your logic, Skyvue, the real national champion is Villanova.. South Carolina is potentially some scab team that just got lucky/hot at the right time.

So jump on board, I am using your logic Skyvue... Villanova is the champion.

Are they not?

you are so off base here it is baffling. You really don't see the differences? Your opinion is set and stone so it isn't worth trying to rationalize with you

 

[coolm]

we always had this argument in baseball and basketball. we'd play tourneys and use pitching over the weekend that we needed for league games.

competitive kids like this play in tough leagues thru the week and nearly every weekend they are out of town. I've had kids with only a 24 game conference schedule yet they end up playing over 100 games for the season thanks to tourneys. So by the time they get to HS and College they are well past this argument. All they see is the game in front.

 

[sperry]

It's been said many times though that conference tournaments are only there for money and to get teams into the NCAA tournament. The NCAA tournament is there for money as well. The best team doesn't win it every year, but it's entertaining. Same for football. Does anyone really think when the Patriots lost the Super Bowl after going undefeated that they weren't as good as the NYG?

Does anyone think when UK went undefeated but lost in the final four that they weren't the best team?


Does anyone think OU last year was better than KU because we went farther? Does anyone think Syracuse was one of the 4 best teams?

That's not the argument. The NCAA tourney or the NFL playoffs don't determine the best team in the country, but they do determine the champion. The conference tournaments don't determine the conference champions. They also just suck for the smaller leagues, where the regular season champ won't get in if they lose their conference tourney.

 

[chuckb]

Any argument that includes the statement, "the regular season is meaningless," as it relates to college basketball, is ridiculous.

I'm not even sure what started this absurd debate but I'm guessing the only reason this debate is ongoing is because our season is over. Because the basketball season is far from meaningless, it can't get here soon enough.