Defense - Tiny and TMG

[DenverSooner]

I really question whether these gifted players possess the heart to be great defensive players. I don't mean this as an insult. These are two guys that will probably be in the NBA. They clearly hvae more talent than many, many past Sooner players.

However, they also badly lack an intangible that many past players had. Look at a guy like Jonnie Gilbert or Renzi Stone. Those guys were never going to be star players. They were never going to make the NBA and they likely knew it. However, they practiced and played to win rather than to look cool. If winning meant blocking out, setting picks, rebounding and never shooting the ball, they would do it, they would do it well and they would do it to win. Obviously, it would be insane to ask Tiny or TMG to play like that, OU needs their offense. However, I truly don't believe Tiny or TMG could do it. They are McD AA, they have always been better thany everyone else and they just didn't have to work as hard as a guy like Jonnie Gilbert or Renzi Stone. I don't think it is in them.

TMG also does not appear to have that same desire to win that guys like AJ, Quannas White and Tim Heskett showed. Clearly TMG is the best player. Again, he likely plays in the NBA because he is stronger, better ball handler, better shooter, better passer, quicker, better vertical, etc. Yet he can't play defense as well as Tim Heskett. He doesn't have that hard nosed attitude of Quannas White (or Tim). He looks cool puts up nice numbers and probably walks into the NBA (maybe even early). I just don't see him valuing the ball like Quannas, refusing to lose a game like Quannas and most importantly not making sloppy plays that help your opponent. Quannas would not do that. I bet on playground he could do anything, but in a game he didn't need to do fancy stuff, Quannas needed to win so he did.

Honestly, I see Tiny and TMG as bench players in the NBA. They will make lots of money, always be talented but the real players will start and finish the games. The guys that are born with same ability as Tiny and TMG but also have the heart of Jordon or Kobe. You would never see Kobe or Jordan give an opponent an easy look (they might get beat but they did not give someone an easy look). Heck Kobe took his friend and teammate out in the Olympics (he told he would and on the court he did it) with hard fouls.

Don't take this wrong, I am a big fan of Tiny and TMG. I look forward to watching every OU game of theirs. I just think as fans (not the coaches) we may need to accept these guys just don't have that killer instinct. It just isn't in them. So they will always be gifted, they will make the NBA but they will be second string players. Honestly, there is nothing wrong with that. I had neither the drive nor ability to be a great athlete (even at a high school level). That doesn't make me a bad guy. Tiny and TMG are not bad guys.

Perhaps they will read this and prove me wrong. I hope so but I just feel like we need to honest in our assessment of these guys and understand that even though they are two of the most talented guys to ever play at OU it is entirely possible and perhaps probable at this point that they don't have the intangible quality of guys like Renzi Stone, Jonnie Gilbert, Tim Heskett and Quannas White.

Not everyone is capable of bringing it for 35 seconds on every possession and to every single practice. Not everyone has a refusal to lose. Some people are just gifted athletically and content with personal achievements because truly committing means risking being emotionally hurt if you are not the next Jordan. So I am not writing these guys off. I am just recognizing they are human and flawed like everyone else and I accept them the way God made them. But it is a shame that a guy like Heskett did not have the talent of a guy like TMG or a guy like Renzi did not have the talent of Tiny. Because those two guys would have been NBA All-stars if they were given the gifts of Tiny and TMG. They would have been the guy that the coach had to have on the floor at the end of the game. They would be the guys the coach puts on the bench in the few occassions they have foul trouble to save them for the final few minutes because at crunch time no one would be better.

 

[Cheno]

IMO, after 6 games of their freshmen years it's hard to question their heart, desire and attitude for the future and that it will stay the same for the rest of their basketball playing careers. Young guys learn and mature. I'm pretty sure the list of names you mentioned of former players didn't have it or anywhere near the level 6 games into their freshmen year. I certainly know AJ didn't. Even going into his junior year I believe Capel publicly was questioning his approach to the game. It's something he certainly learned and had a very good senior year.
I say give these guys time. We're 6 games in. I think to say they probably don't have the intangibles is premature.

 

[DenverSooner]

IMO, after 6 games of their freshmen years it's hard to question their heart, desire and attitude for the future and that it will stay the same for the rest of their basketball playing careers. Young guys learn and mature. I'm pretty sure the list of names you mentioned of former players didn't have it or anywhere near the level 6 games into their freshmen year. I certainly know AJ didn't. Even going into his junior year I believe Capel publicly was questioning his approach to the game. It's something he certainly learned and had a very good senior year.
I say give these guys time. We're 6 games in. I think to say they probably don't have the intangibles is premature.

Sure he did. AJ got tossed onto the floor against Villanova and calmed the team down. He played well. Not flashy, not with the ability of TMG. He simply isn't as good a player but he played smart and was willing to dive on the floor, set picks, play defense do the little things.

I am absolutely not saying TMG is not a better player than Heskett, White or AJ, I am simply saying that those guys had a quality about them that TMG may not have. I am suggesting that this intangible is what makes the difference between a guy playing a few years in the NBA and having a long term career or with enough talent the difference between a long term career in the NBA and being an NBA All-star.

It certainly isn't a knock on TMG or Tiny if God did not bless them with that ability. I darn sure never had that intangible gift. I just want to be realistic and not expect too much from these guys. Both are really good basketball players.

We could also probably toss Willie into this category. He could be the best backcourt player ever at OU, but that doesn't mean he is capable of doing what Hollis Price did or Mookie Blaylock did. Holding WW to a standard like that just isn't fair. We should accept WW for who he is.

Do you remember that kid at OSU named Hatcher (I think that was his name, played in the early to mid 90s). He was a guard. He could not do any of the things TMG or WW can do but he was a defensive stopper. He came into the game and shut people down. I am simply suggesting that perhaps TMG and WW don't have the ability to do that. Maybe its ADD, maybe its something else but that does not make TMG or WW a bad guy. We just need to accept that there are players of far less ability than TMG or WW that are capable of playing far better defense. Those other guys can't score or pass worth a darn, so I say lets take TMG and WW as they are, look good and recognize that 18-20 wins is a good season.

Perhaps WW, TMG and Tiny will read this and prove me wrong but I just want to be realistic in my expectations of them. Look at it this way, if you drop 20 on your opponent every night they are going to have to shoot at really high percentage even with limited defense and more times than not you will win. Obviously it will be difficult to win a Big XII Championship or go far in the NCAA Tournement playing that style but they can still win lots of games and be an above average team. I just don't think it is fair to these gifted players to think they can do everything. None of the guys in the past or on other teams that can play really good defense can score like these guys. We never expected those past guys to average 20 a game and be All-Big XII players, why should we expect TMG and WW to do things that they apparently cannot do?

 

[MsProudSooner]

You can't make any judgements about freshmen 6 games into their freshman year.

 

[DenverSooner]

My only judgment is that Tiny, TMG and WW are three of the best players to play at OU. I just don't think it is fair to expect them to be as good at defense as a guy like Renzi Stone or Tim Heskett.

I have never claimed to be a great basketball mind. Maybe I just don't get it, but I don't think it is fair to criticize these guys for poor defense when they do so much on the offensive end. Not everyone can play defense like Stone and Heskett. Regardless of their defensive abilities, these guys are going to win some games. Think about, what teams beside KU, Duke, Kentucky and North Carolina have started 3 McD AA? I just want to enjoy the things these guys can do rather than focus on the negative.

 

[thebigabd]

I don't blame the players, I blame the coaching. I am sure most freshman come in without defensive work ethic, but coaches across the country get their guys to play good defense if they are good defensive coaches.

How many guys just don't play any defense for Doc Sadler? Mike Anderson? Bob Knight? Tom Izzo? Kelvin Sampson? Bill Self? Doug Wojcik? The answer is none. These guys demand defense or you don't play. I have been following OU basketball since 1994 or 1995 and I have yet to see defense like this.

Capel is blaming the players for not thinking defense is "cool" (this is what he said on the radio last night), but I don't think the above coaches have ever had a problem with getting young players to defend and give maximum effort. Hell, top to bottom nobody gets the most out of their players than Doc Sadler at Nebraska.

They have new starters and first year players all over the place and they have held 3 of their 5 opponents this year under 50 points.

 

[Sam]

My only judgment is that Tiny, TMG and WW are three of the best players to play at OU. I just don't think it is fair to expect them to be as good at defense as a guy like Renzi Stone or Tim Heskett.

I have never claimed to be a great basketball mind. Maybe I just don't get it, but I don't think it is fair to criticize these guys for poor defense when they do so much on the offensive end. Not everyone can play defense like Stone and Heskett. Regardless of their defensive abilities, these guys are going to win some games. Think about, what teams beside KU, Duke, Kentucky and North Carolina have started 3 McD AA? I just want to enjoy the things these guys can do rather than focus on the negative.

There is a difference between just poor defense and little to no effort on the defensive end. If It was poor defensive technique I might be inclined to look past it a little bit but it is not just that. There is a reason TMG and Tiny didn't start vs Houston and Willie didn't play vs Nichols St and it wasn't just because of their defensive skills. I want to at least see high effort on the defensively end. That is the thing about Cade even if he gets beat on defense, at least you know he is giving effort which makes it a little easier to take if he gives up a bucket.

 

[oSuJeff97]

My only judgment is that Tiny, TMG and WW are three of the best players to play at OU. I just don't think it is fair to expect them to be as good at defense as a guy like Renzi Stone or Tim Heskett.

I have never claimed to be a great basketball mind. Maybe I just don't get it, but I don't think it is fair to criticize these guys for poor defense when they do so much on the offensive end. Not everyone can play defense like Stone and Heskett. Regardless of their defensive abilities, these guys are going to win some games. Think about, what teams beside KU, Duke, Kentucky and North Carolina have started 3 McD AA? I just want to enjoy the things these guys can do rather than focus on the negative.

I know where you're coming from on this Denver.

It is very frustraiting to watch guys who are so athletically gifted refuse to play defense. Or at least, it's frustraiting to see them not do it as well as other guys who are nowhere near as athletically gifted.

There is some skill involved in playing defense, but for the most part it's about athleticism, desire and effort.

Perhaps part of it is that some guys who score a lot of points or really contribute on the offensive end, whether conciously or even subconciously feel that they can let up a bit on defense because of all they contribute on offense.

And other guys -- you brought up Cordell Hatcher, and OSU has had some other defensive stoppers (Terry Evans, Melvin Sanders, Marcus Dove) -- these other guys maybe subconciously know that they will never contribute as much on offense so they tend to work extra hard on defense.

 

[DenverSooner]

I don't think it is fair for you guys to judge these talented players by saying they are not trying. Nobody would say Renzi Stone was not trying to score points. Nobody would say Jonnie Gilbert was not trying to score points.

The fact of the matter is that WW, TMG and Tiny are not capable of shutting down players at VCU, Houston, San Diego, Mount St. Marys, La Monroe and Nichols State and that is fine because WW, TMG and Tiny are gifted on the other end of the court. It is strange that the faster, stronger, quicker, and more skilled player is not able to shut down those players but it is simply not right to expect TMG, Tiny and WW to do things they are not capable of doing. It is almost like you guys expecting a player like Renzi Stone to dunk the ball like Blake Griffin.

Honestly, I just hope this aspect of their game does not keep them from being first round picks or lottery picks because I don't think I would draft a guy that has such defensive problems. It is kind of like drafting Doug Gotlieb - fine basketball player but lacked the ability to shoot the ball. Therefore, he is better suited as an analyst than an NBA player. WW would make a great analyst. Wouldn't that be fun to watch him covering college ball after playing at OU?

 

[BigTime]

I don't think it is fair for you guys to judge these talented players by saying they are not trying. Nobody would say Renzi Stone was not trying to score points. Nobody would say Jonnie Gilbert was not trying to score points.

The fact of the matter is that WW, TMG and Tiny are not capable of shutting down players at VCU, Houston, San Diego, Mount St. Marys, La Monroe and Nichols State and that is fine because WW, TMG and Tiny are gifted on the other end of the court. It is strange that the faster, stronger, quicker, and more skilled player is not able to shut down those players but it is simply not right to expect TMG, Tiny and WW to do things they are not capable of doing. It is almost like you guys expecting a player like Renzi Stone to dunk the ball like Blake Griffin.

Honestly, I just hope this aspect of their game does not keep them from being first round picks or lottery picks because I don't think I would draft a guy that has such defensive problems. It is kind of like drafting Doug Gotlieb - fine basketball player but lacked the ability to shoot the ball. Therefore, he is better suited as an analyst than an NBA player. WW would make a great analyst. Wouldn't that be fun to watch him covering college ball after playing at OU?

Coach Capel said our biggest problem on defense right now was lack of focus and want-to. That is effort. WW has all the tools to be a shut down defender. He has above average lateral quickness. He is strong. He has a decent wingspan. It is all about effort.

 

[Sam]

It is a lot easier to be good at defense when you have atheltic ability + effort. Than it is on offense to just have atheltic ability + effort.

 

[DenverSooner]

Coach Capel said our biggest problem on defense right now was lack of focus and want-to. That is effort. WW has all the tools to be a shut down defender. He has above average lateral quickness. He is strong. He has a decent wingspan. It is all about effort.

Perhaps it is just me but I think you are projecting what you want on WW. Great basketball player but honsetly he does not have the ability to defend like Tim Heskett. It is the strangest thing I have ever seen because Tim was slower than the average college player and probably had less overall talent than the averge BCS school scholarship player. Therefore, you would think WW would be better but he isn't. We do know he is a tremendous competitor so I refuse to believe it has anything to do with effort and just comes down to a lack of ability.

Anyway, I am not going to sweat it. WW will almost certainly not be a lottery pick. If he doesn't work at it, he might not even make it to the NBA but I am cool with that because I would love to see him as an analyst. It would be so great to have a OU homer on ESPN.

Ultimately, I think it is a glass half full or half empty situation. I just choose not focus on the fundamental lack of defensive ability by these 3 McD AA and instead focus on the positives that do exist. They are great offensive players and will make great analysts some day. Plus, they are going to have some sweet plays even when they lose. Tiny is going to throw down some monster dunks, so that will be exciting. Additionally, WW and TMG are going to make some incredible passes that are not turn overs so that too will be really cool to watch. Finally, the NIT is not that bad of a tournament and in the worst case scenario they can go to that really weak tournament and probably win it. That would be cool. 3 or 4 more games and a trophy. Everyone likes trophies!

 

[DenverSooner]

It is a lot easier to be good at defense when you have atheltic ability + effort. Than it is on offense to just have atheltic ability + effort.

But your problem like everyone else is you assume these McD AA have the ability and aren't trying. I am saying just the opposite. These are guys with great pride and huge competitive spirits. Therefore, it is completely illogical to argue it is a lack of effort. (I know Capel said it was a lack of effort but do you really expect him to be honest with the guys and say look you just suck at defense so we are going to quit trying and only focus on offense - I just don't see a coach doing.) Once we recognize that they are not capable of stopping guys at programs that are arguably not even mid-majors, it becomes much easier to enjoy the exciting play on the other end of the court.

For example, rather than focus on the final score tonight we could discuss how many dunks OU will have. Do you think one of the guys will get a break away with an opportunity to throw down a 360 dunk during a game. That is something you don't see all the time and with the way these take high risks on the defensive end of the floor you have to agree it is a possibility they will make the steal and get the 360 dunk!

All I am saying is we should enjoy what we have and we have some tremendously gifted offensive basketball players. So I predict OU has 8 dunks to only 3 for Arkansas, with OU getting at least one break away show boat opportunity.

 

[Stikboy]

Who gives a crap what they can do on the offensive end if they're killing us on the defensive end? Do you care more about flashy plays and streetball, or OU winning? Im not sure if you are speaking tongue in cheek or what, but if you honestly care more about showboat dunks than winning, thats just sad. Why cant you have both? Do you really think, after watching these guys, that they have an innate INability to play defense? Horse****. Defense is effort, attitude, and intensity. What about all the Mickey D's all americans at other schools that play D? Uh lets see UNC, UT, KU I could go on and on. Just because you are great on O doesnt mean you have to suck on D. Capel just needs to light a fire under some ace. Im sorry if we go 3-27 but "have cool dunks!!!!!" uh that just doesnt set well with me. I can go down to the local park and see that. Maybe far-fetched but I enjoy OU winning basketball games. By the way, if your posts are in jest then haha it is funny!:clap

 

[DenverSooner]

I just figure if WW, TMG and Tiny want to play in the NBA they would be trying on the defensive end. Jordan played defense. Kobe plays defense. It just seems to me that WW, TMG and Tiny can't do it or they would. I am hoping they prove me wrong but until they do I am going with a theory that they fundamentally lack the ability to play D and probably didn't really belong in the McD AA game. It really makes no sense becaus TIM HESKETT COULD PLAY DEFENSE!

Maybe a nice bring back Heskett chant would wake these guys up? We want Kellen, We want Kellen. I bet Kellen slow @$$ could play defense. (no offense Kellen, I am slower than you and much worse basketball player)

I guess I am somewhat hoping these ego maniacs will read this and realize how stupid they look not being able to play defense against Mount St. Marys, VCU, Houston, Nichols State, San Diego, and LA Monroe. So yes, I am being sarcastic. Lottery picks do not get burned repeatedly on the perimeter by guys that don't even get scholarships to mid-major programs (and several of those teams probably aren't really midmajors by my definition).

 

[OUsky]

For example, rather than focus on the final score tonight we could discuss how many dunks OU will have.

Instead of final score tonight we should focus on how "Cool" everyone looks. I mean if they miss a free throw, but look "Cool" doing it, that's ok... or maybe a great turnover.

 

[campbest]

Defense at the high school level is not overly difficult, let's be real. My AAU coach once told me that "college coaches want to see if you can score...when you get to school, they will teach you to play defense."

 

[Tony]

Was Tim Heskett some sort of shutdown defender and I am just forgetting it?

I will also go ahead and disagree with posters and Coach Capel who think OU's problem right now has much to do with effort.

 

[Stikboy]

I just figure if WW, TMG and Tiny want to play in the NBA they would be trying on the defensive end. Jordan played defense. Kobe plays defense. It just seems to me that WW, TMG and Tiny can't do it or they would. I am hoping they prove me wrong but until they do I am going with a theory that they fundamentally lack the ability to play D and probably didn't really belong in the McD AA game. It really makes no sense becaus TIM HESKETT COULD PLAY DEFENSE!

Maybe a nice bring back Heskett chant would wake these guys up? We want Kellen, We want Kellen. I bet Kellen slow @$$ could play defense. (no offense Kellen, I am slower than you and much worse basketball player)

I guess I am somewhat hoping these ego maniacs will read this and realize how stupid they look not being able to play defense against Mount St. Marys, VCU, Houston, Nichols State, San Diego, and LA Monroe. So yes, I am being sarcastic

I thought so....I am as frustrated as you are. I wonder if our two new signees play D. Cam Clark looks like he'd be lethal at the top of a 1-3-1... Plus Taylor would give us more depth guarding the perimeter.

 

[MNsooner]

Are we talking about the same Tiny Gallon? The one who lost like 300lbs in half a week? And he has no work ethic? Huh?