Dominique Elliott out?

[Section31]

OU fans are just strange about Sampson. 2000-2003 was one of the best four year stretch of OU basketball ever in terms of wins (second best). OU won 27, 26, 31 and 27 games in those years. That is an average of 27.75 wins a season. Sampson also went 9 consecutive seasons winning 20 games or more and averaging 24.44 wins a season. In one of those years OU was plagued with injuries. Another year OU kicked JR Raymond off the team and lost a first round NCAA game. Without those events Sampson probably would have been pretty close to a 25 win average over those 9 seasons. (I think OU with Raymond wins at least 2 NCAA games and I think a healthy Bookout was probably worth 2 or more wins.)

People get onto Sampson for some first round NCAA losses but those teams were projected to be NIT teams so he actually did a good job with them.

If you compare Sampson to Tubbs he actually compares fairly well and Tubbs had a great run at OU. Tubbs best four year stretch was 87-90 when OU won 24, 35, 30 and 27 games for an average of 29 wins which is phenominal . Tubbs also averaged 27.5 wins from 1983 - 1986. (you could use 87 or 83 because both years were 24 wins). From 1982 to 1993 Tubbs won 20 or more games averaging 25.75 wins a year. The worst seasons were actually in the 90s and I have read a lot of rumors or comments that the OU Administration hampered Tubbs with some added academic requirements due to the football team going on probation. Plus Tubbs had an injured Sallier on one of his better teams in the 90s.

The 12 year run of Tubbs and 9 year run of Sampson were much more similar than a lot of OU fans seem to realize with Tubbs winning just 1.31 more games a season. The two coaches did things a lot differently but they were both very good.


http://soonerstats.com/basketball/men/seasons/index.cfm?decade=all

Not sure why this was posted. I LOVED KS as a coach. I was just commenting on his, IMO, offensive shortcomings.

 

[Section31]

Denver, while I don't disagree with anything you stated about Sampson, you didn't mention the single biggest injury related loss -- Bobby Evans was the only legit big time high school big ever signed by Sampson, and essentially, he never played for us due to a bad wheel. He got spot duty as a freshman but that was about it. Pre injury, he was about as good as any freshman big int he country, and if he had been healthy and stayed for 4 years there is simply no telling how many more wins we would have had.

To each his own, but I was a big fan of Sampson. I know many on here were not and that is ok.

I agree with this. I don't think this is discussed as much as it should be. BJE was, IMO, going to be a superstar.

 

[WTSooner]

Bobby Evans was the only legit big time high school big ever signed by Sampson

A few guys would like a word with you:

Bookout
Stone
Najera

 

[DenverSooner]

Denver, while I don't disagree with anything you stated about Sampson, you didn't mention the single biggest injury related loss -- Bobby Evans was the only legit big time high school big ever signed by Sampson, and essentially, he never played for us due to a bad wheel. He got spot duty as a freshman but that was about it. Pre injury, he was about as good as any freshman big int he country, and if he had been healthy and stayed for 4 years there is simply no telling how many more wins we would have had.

To each his own, but I was a big fan of Sampson. I know many on here were not and that is ok.

That was a crushing blow to OU basketball. So were the collapses of one of Tubbs final recruiting classes and Sampson's final recruiting class. OU also got crushed by Capel's recruiting class falling apart due to attitude issues. TMG was a goodball but that kid could play basketball. If he had his talent and Hollis Price's attitude, he might be leading the Big XII in assists and scoring this season as a senior. I think he could have been every bit as good as Jackson at Baylor. I wonder what happened to that guy?

 

[DenverSooner]

Not sure why this was posted. I LOVED KS as a coach. I was just commenting on his, IMO, offensive shortcomings.

If you are winning 27.5 games a year over a four year stretch you don't have offensive shortcomings. It is just a myth like the myth that Tubbs didn't play defense. OU was all about defense in the Tubbs era. It was the full court press that made the machine work.

 

[vbdad]

Or if he played for a coach like Sampson that wanted his best players taking all the shots. Can you imagine the sets Kelvin would have ran for Pledger?

I'm not complaining, we've been pretty darn efficient on offense this year spreading it around, just making a statement.

It doesn't matter what set or play is called Steven can't remember it after the time out. He is having a better year but his minutes were reduced until Buddy was hurt. If you watch Pledger's man is usually open. He couldn't even cover the KSU kid.

 

[Section31]

If you are winning 27.5 games a year over a four year stretch you don't have offensive shortcomings. It is just a myth like the myth that Tubbs didn't play defense. OU was all about defense in the Tubbs era. It was the full court press that made the machine work.

Horse poop.. Sampson's teams were THAT good defensively.

 

[WTSooner]

It doesn't matter what set or play is called Steven can't remember it after the time out. He is having a better year but his minutes were reduced until Buddy was hurt. If you watch Pledger's man is usually open. He couldn't even cover the KSU kid.

:facepalm

 

[WTSooner]

Horse poop.. Sampson's teams were THAT good defensively.

I wish Ken Pom's numbers went back further, and I'd put some actual numbers to this debate. I'm guessing Kelvin's offenses were for the most part, quite a bit more efficient than he get's credit for. Don't let the low ppg averages fool you, that had more to do with pace than anything.

 

[Swans]

A few guys would like a word with you:

Bookout
Stone
Najera

Skillswise, those three were not in the same class as Bobby Joe.

 

[WTSooner]

Skillswise, those three were not in the same class as Bobby Joe.

I wouldn't be so quick to say Najera wasn't. And Bookout's skill-set may have been a little different, but he was very good at what he did. We do have the better part of two full seasons of BJE stats. Production-wise, his numbers were lacking. How much of that was injury related? We'll never really know. But I don't think that BJE's ceiling was all that much higher than what we got out of Eduardo during his four years at OU.

 

[Section31]

I wish Ken Pom's numbers went back further, and I'd put some actual numbers to this debate. I'm guessing Kelvin's offenses were for the most part, quite a bit more efficient than he get's credit for. Don't let the low ppg averages fool you, that had more to do with pace than anything.

I'm going off my vision. It was pretty routine for those teams to go 5+ min without scoring...brutal at times. Add to that, those teams had some pretty good scorers on them. I TRULY believe KS stressed defense and rebounding (the infamous bubble) that their offense wasn't always that smooth.

You know what, come to think of it, after that last sentence above. Quite possibly it wasn't his ability to coach offense that was the problem, but the guys just didn't get the reps they needed offensively because they were working that hard on defense. I dunno. I DO know they were extremely (and I mean EXTREMELY) painful to watch at times.

 

[Section31]

I wouldn't be so quick to say Najera wasn't. And Bookout's skill-set may have been a little different, but he was very good at what he did. We do have the better part of two full seasons of BJE stats. Production-wise, his numbers were lacking. How much of that was injury related? We'll never really know. But I don't think that BJE's ceiling was all that much higher than what we got out of Eduardo during his four years at OU.

A TON. He was pretty much injured when he got here. The guy was as skilled as any big man that KS had. Hard to say how BJE woulda sized up against many of the all-time greats at OU. BJE was a TRUE post, with a true post game. He had such a smooth offensive game and was strong as an ox. You're right though, we'll never really know.

 

[StatGeek]

I'm going off my vision. It was pretty routine for those teams to go 5+ min without scoring...brutal at times. Add to that, those teams had some pretty good scorers on them. I TRULY believe KS stressed defense and rebounding (the infamous bubble) that their offense wasn't always that smooth.

You know what, come to think of it, after that last sentence above. Quite possibly it wasn't his ability to coach offense that was the problem, but the guys just didn't get the reps they needed offensively because they were working that hard on defense. I dunno. I DO know they were extremely (and I mean EXTREMELY) painful to watch at times.

This line of thought is very difficult for me to understand, I find watching OU basketball while it is very successful year in and year out EXTREMELY fun. The idea that higher scoring games are more fun has never made any sense to me in any sport. In lower scoring contests every bucket is more important, conversely in higher scoring matchups every stop is more important. Either way I feel the games are equally exciting.

 

[Swans]

A TON. He was pretty much injured when he got here. The guy was as skilled as any big man that KS had. Hard to say how BJE woulda sized up against many of the all-time greats at OU. BJE was a TRUE post, with a true post game. He had such a smooth offensive game and was strong as an ox. You're right though, we'll never really know.

This! The first time I saw him on the court I knew he was exceptional. If he had been able to play just one full year injury free, I believe we'd mention him among the best that ever played here.

 

[Section31]

This line of thought is very difficult for me to understand, I find watching OU basketball while it is very successful year in and year out EXTREMELY fun. The idea that higher scoring games are more fun has never made any sense to me in any sport. In lower scoring contests every bucket is more important, conversely in higher scoring matchups every stop is more important. Either way I feel the games are equally exciting.

So, because I'm a fan, I can't have a preference for style of play? THAT line of thought is difficult for ME to understand. Do I appreciate every win regardless of how we got it? Sure. Would I prefer us to play right on both ends AND be entertained? Hells yea. My frustration with KS's offensive production during his tenure had little to do with high scoring vs. low scoring. It had to do with empty possessions because of, what appeared to me, to be a lack of offensive identity. If we were scoring 50 pts per game, but were efficient about it, I'd be happy with it.

BTW, I WAS happy with KS, but to try and explain away his teams' offensive inefficiencies by making reaches regarding me, as a fan, being spoiled or unrealistic is just dumb. There's a line in there somewhere between being a loyal fan of your team and of the sport...after all, you're there to be ENTERTAINED.

 

[WTSooner]

If we were scoring 50 pts per game, but were efficient about it, I'd be happy with it.

That's just it though, I don't think they were all that inefficient at the end of the day. It might have seemed that way at times, but I'd actually argue that they were pretty darn efficient on that end.

Ken Pom's numbers don't go back very far, but in 3 of Kelvin's last 4 years, OU had an offense in the top 25 in the country as far as efficiency. Compare that to the last 7 years under Capel and Kruger, and OU has only had 1 year where we had an offensive efficiency in the top 25, and that was due entirely to Blake Griffin.

 

[snydrosooner]

The main issue I had with the Sampson style (loved the results) was that it would take the fans out of the game at times. The offense may have been efficient. But they would go through 5 minutes where they would not score and as a student in the stands you start to sit on your hands as rooting for a defesive stop is not the same as rooting for the offense.

 

[Section31]

The main issue I had with the Sampson style (loved the results) was that it would take the fans out of the game at times. The offense may have been efficient. But they would go through 5 minutes where they would not score and as a student in the stands you start to sit on your hands as rooting for a defesive stop is not the same as rooting for the offense.

This is really all I'm saying.

 

[redfirecracker]

The main issue I had with the Sampson style (loved the results) was that it would take the fans out of the game at times. The offense may have been efficient. But they would go through 5 minutes where they would not score and as a student in the stands you start to sit on your hands as rooting for a defesive stop is not the same as rooting for the offense.

I remember going home with my ears ringing for hours -- eventually I started bringing ear plugs. Of course that was Kelvin's first three years. Maybe the later years changed. I can't remember the last time it occurred to me to bring ear plugs.