Love playing hard ball

bocabull

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Sounds like he is having his agent tell everybody he is going to Cleveland. Whether he gets traded there this summer or waits until after next season.

This tactic should substantially reduce what Cleveland has to expend in obtaining him. Meaning no Wiggins.
 
It is theoretically possible for Cleveland to create enough cap space to offer Love his max next summer; however, it would require a highly unlikely set of events.

The projected salary cap for next summer is $66.5 mil. At that figure, the Cavs--assuming they want to keep LeBron, Irving, and Wiggins while giving Love a max deal--would have to trade everyone else on their roster that's under contract for 2015-16--including Bennett and Waiters--without taking back any salary AND renounce the rights to all of their 2015 free agents, including Rich Paul client Tristan Thompson (assuming he doesn't re-sign before then; if he does re-sign, then this Love via free agency scenario already goes out the window). Furthermore, they would need Irving not to be voted into the All-Star game as a starter this season (a second All-Star start will bump his 2015-16 from the 25% max to 27.5%). According to my calculations, all of that--clearing the roster of everyone but LeBron, Irving, and Wiggins, along with Irving not qualifying for the Rose rule--would create just enough for Love's max starting salary (but it's close, within $100k or so). If Irving gets that second All-Star start--and the accompanying salary bump--then the Cavs would need the cap to increase to nearly $70 mil, and that's not happening.

Love and his agent don't want him to hit free agency with Minnesota possessing his Bird rights for two reasons: 1) he'd be leaving a lot of money on the table by signing elsewhere (4 years instead of 5, with 4.5% raises instead of 7.5%); 2) the necessity of cap space restricts his options. Golden State and Chicago will be capped out. Houston could possibly open up enough cap space for a Love max if they dump Ariza and one or two other contracts. Boston could probably fit Love's max in with a re-signed Rondo with a just couple of small contract dumps, depending on how large Rondo's next contract is. I know Love expressed interest in the Celtics, but that's probably a lottery team without him. It's easy to see why he'd rather go to Cleveland. The Knicks will probably have room for a Love max, but he's also supposedly obsessed with winning (wanting to live in Cleveland confirms as much), so I doubt New York is an ideal destination for him. Same goes for the Lakers and their garbage roster.

If Love hits free agency with Minnesota next summer, the Cavs (or anyone else) could work out a sign-and-trade for Love, but that would require Minnesota to comply. Also, it means Love leaves a lot of money on the table.

Regardless, I can't see the Cavs pulling off a Love trade without including Wiggins. Without Wiggins, their offer is a turd sandwich.
 
IMO, you trade wiggins for Love. And it isn't even that hard. Lebron is in his prime. Go get love instead of waiting for Wiggins to develop.
 
Smash, you know way more than me about the CBA, salary cap, etc. But I thought if Cleveland acquired Love this summer they would own his Bird rights and could go over the cap to give him the max. Especially if he opted in to the last year of his contract for 2015/16.
 
IMO, you trade wiggins for Love. And it isn't even that hard. Lebron is in his prime. Go get love instead of waiting for Wiggins to develop.

I agree... if you want to bring championships to Cleveland right away, you trade Wiggins for Love if that is what it takes.

PG: Kyrie Irving
SG: Dion Waiters
SF: Lebron James
PF: Kevin Love
C: Anderson Varajeo

Wow. Insane lineup.
 
IMO, you trade wiggins for Love. And it isn't even that hard. Lebron is in his prime. Go get love instead of waiting for Wiggins to develop.

I don't think it's "quite" that simple, but I agree you probably have to make that trade. This isn't a great, or even good, defensive team. That is the one skill that Wiggins brings from day 1, the ability to defend a couple of positions, probably at an above average level.

I'm not convinced Waiters is a good fit next to Irving and James. But at the end of the day, it Minnesota wants Wiggins, I think you have to make that trade.
 
Smash, you know way more than me about the CBA, salary cap, etc. But I thought if Cleveland acquired Love this summer they would own his Bird rights and could go over the cap to give him the max. Especially if he opted in to the last year of his contract for 2015/16.
If Love gets traded to Cleveland, then yes, the Cavs can go over the salary cap to re-sign him.

I was speaking on Cleveland's inability to sign Love as a free agent next summer if he plays out the season with Minnesota or any other team besides Cleveland. From that perspective, Love can't tell Minnesota, "Trade me to Cleveland now, or I'm just going to sign there next summer, and you'll get nothing in return." That threat isn't real with respect to Cleveland in particular. If he wants to go to Cleveland--and only Cleveland--then some sort of trade is necessary; otherwise, Cleveland isn't getting Love. Both Cleveland and Minnesota understand that, so Love and Cleveland don't have enough leverage to force Minnesota to accept a terrible trade package.
 
I don't think it's "quite" that simple, but I agree you probably have to make that trade. This isn't a great, or even good, defensive team. That is the one skill that Wiggins brings from day 1, the ability to defend a couple of positions, probably at an above average level.

I'm not convinced Waiters is a good fit next to Irving and James. But at the end of the day, it Minnesota wants Wiggins, I think you have to make that trade.
The bolded line sums up my stance.

The LeBron/Irving/Love triumvirate isn't a perfect fit, in terms of maximizing overall production per dollar. With LeBron/Wade/Bosh, we saw their individual offensive skill sets not get maximized due to both skill overlap (LeBron/Wade) and there only being so many shots to go around (sorry, Chris); however, those guys largely made up for it by all being great defensive players (at least for the first three seasons). I don't think Love is all that bad defensively--he's not a rim protector or anything, but I think his rep is exaggerated. He and Irving can and probably will improve simply by playing harder on a contender, but that's not a defensive juggernaut in the making. And going back to the offensive end, who is the third option among LeBron/Irving/Love? Is it worth pushing all of your chips in on Love if he's only getting Bosh-level usage on the offensive end without giving you Bosh-level defense? Probably, but it's not that simple.

A more ideal fit for Cleveland would be an Ibaka-type: an elite rim protector who doesn't need the ball but is an effective floor-spacing big. That type of player isn't available, though.

I don't think Waiters is a good fit in Cleveland, either. He already had problems sharing the ball with Irving. They need a wing who's going to do the dirty work (i.e. taking the toughest perimeter assignment and playing his tail off on that end) and accept a limited, off-ball offensive role. To me, Waiters is trade bait who ideally helps you get a rim protector in return.
 
Wiggins is the Ibaka style Waiters replacement you're talking about Smash. Watching him fly around in summer league it's very risky to trade away that caliber of physical freak.

I like you're Bosh comparison with Love. Great players but a notch below elite. Of course the Heat went to 4 straight finals with Bosh so pairing Lebron with a notch below elite has proven deadly.

The Cavs should stand pat IMO. See how it plays out the first half of the season. So much has fallen right into their lap. Don't screw it up & look a gift horse in the mouth trying to do too much.
 
Wiggins is the Ibaka style Waiters replacement you're talking about Smash. Watching him fly around in summer league it's very risky to trade away that caliber of physical freak.

I like you're Bosh comparison with Love. Great players but a notch below elite. Of course the Heat went to 4 straight finals with Bosh so pairing Lebron with a notch below elite has proven deadly.

The Cavs should stand pat IMO. See how it plays out the first half of the season. So much has fallen right into their lap. Don't screw it up & look a gift horse in the mouth trying to do too much.

I do agree with this on some level. You never know how these guys are going to turn out.

The Bucks traded away Dirk Nowtizki on draft day to the Mavericks for Robert Traylor. The Charlotte Hornets traded Kobe Bryant to the Lakers.

One day the Cavs may look back and say, "holy crap, we traded Wiggins for so and so".
 
If Cleveland doesn't want to give up Wiggins, I know another team ready to pounce.

*Waits for Smash to tell me why the Bulls can't make it happen*

C'mon Smash, just pretend it's possible.
 
Wiggins is the Ibaka style Waiters replacement you're talking about Smash. Watching him fly around in summer league it's very risky to trade away that caliber of physical freak.

I like you're Bosh comparison with Love. Great players but a notch below elite. Of course the Heat went to 4 straight finals with Bosh so pairing Lebron with a notch below elite has proven deadly.

The Cavs should stand pat IMO. See how it plays out the first half of the season. So much has fallen right into their lap. Don't screw it up & look a gift horse in the mouth trying to do too much.
Big difference between elite defensive bigs and wings. The latter are far more valuable.

I think Love is an elite player. My issue isn't with his talent level; rather, I don't think it's that easy for an offense-heavy Big 3 to make up for the absence of a rim-protecting big unless they're all highly gifted two-way players, like the Miami trio.

It would make sense for the Cavs to stand pat to see what they have in Wiggins, but that's a double-edged sword. I don't think Wiggins' stock will be as high as it is now once he goes from being an unknown commodity (on the NBA level) to a young player who isn't ready to dominate out of the gate. Ultimately, whatever other offers Minnesota gets can be trumped by a Wiggins package--0 games or 30 games into his career, he's a 19-year-old #1 pick with a ton of potential--but Flip Saunders is overly obsessed with trying to win now. This is the guy who wanted Klay Thompson, who's going to get max money a year from now, over Wiggins, as if the T-Wolves are going to become a playoff team immediately after trading Love. Maybe Flip watches Wiggins struggle through his first 20 or 30 games and decides he doesn't have time to wait on him to develop. That's the problem with letting your GM hire himself as head coach. Coaches want to win now, but it's on the front office to have a long-term plan in place.
 
I do agree with this on some level. You never know how these guys are going to turn out.

The Bucks traded away Dirk Nowtizki on draft day to the Mavericks for Robert Traylor. The Charlotte Hornets traded Kobe Bryant to the Lakers.

One day the Cavs may look back and say, "holy crap, we traded Wiggins for so and so".
Those examples aren't even apples and oranges comparisons to the Wiggins situation. We're talking about completely different food groups here.

It wasn't as if the Mavs loved Traylor at #6, then developed buyer's remorse in the 10 minutes between that pick and Milwaukee selecting Dirk at #9. It was a pre-arranged swap of picks, not players.

The Hornets never had any intention of keeping Kobe. They drafted him because the Lakers told them to draft him on their behalf. Whether or not the Hornets wanted Kobe didn't even matter, because he refused to play anywhere but LA (hence, why he fell to #13). Arn Tellem went out of his way to steer Kobe to LA.

If the Cavs trade Wiggins, they may very well regret it. If they don't trade him for Love, then there's a very good chance that Wiggins doesn't live up to his #1 overall status, and we look back on it and say, "Wow, I can't believe they wouldn't trade that guy for a proven elite player win LeBron's title window was still open."
 
I will say this too. I think a deal is pretty much done with Cleveland, and that is why Minnesota asked Love to sit out the Team USA stuff. If he plays, and gets hurt, that deal goes up in smoke. Just like sitting out baseball players, especially pitchers, right before they are traded. In 30 days or so, when Wiggins can be moved, I think we'll see a deal get done.
 
If Cleveland doesn't want to give up Wiggins, I know another team ready to pounce.

*Waits for Smash to tell me why the Bulls can't make it happen*

C'mon Smash, just pretend it's possible.
I'm not in love with the potential Chicago trade packages, at least from the perspective of a lottery-bound team that is giving away a superstar.

But I'm not Flip Saunders, so it can certainly happen. Flip seems to believe Minnesota can make some sort of playoff run after trading Kevin Love. I really like Taj Gibson, but as a 29-year-old role player he makes no sense as a principal trade component for a team that's not going to sniff the .500 mark for the next few years. That Gibson's name has been floated as a player of interest to Minnesota indicates how out of whack Flip's priorities are.
 
I will say this too. I think a deal is pretty much done with Cleveland, and that is why Minnesota asked Love to sit out the Team USA stuff. If he plays, and gets hurt, that deal goes up in smoke. Just like sitting out baseball players, especially pitchers, right before they are traded. In 30 days or so, when Wiggins can be moved, I think we'll see a deal get done.
My understanding is that teams can verbally agree upon a trade in that 30-day window, but it's not binding, nor can they make any public announcement. If it were a done deal already, I think it would have been leaked. I can't imagine everyone within both organizations sitting on that type of info for a month, especially given that seemingly every trade discussion of theirs has already been leaked.
 
I just can't classify a guy whose been in the league 6 years & never made the playoffs as elite. Elite players don't just stuff stat sheets, they can carry pretty much any roster into the playoffs. I can't think of any legit elite player who couldn't at least consistently achieve a winning record.
 
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I just can't classify a guy whose been in the league 6 years & never made the playoffs as elite. Elite players don't just stuff stat sheets, they can carry pretty much any roster into the playoffs. I can't think of any legit elite player who couldn't at least consistently achieve a winning record.

Not to mention that his team is not void of any talent. They have Pekovic, Rubio, Kevin Martin, Corey Brewer, JJ Barea... Those are decent pieces to have around an elite guy.

Let's take a guy we know is elite, in his prime. Would this be a playoff team:

PG: Ricky Rubio
SG: Kevin Martin
SF: Corey Brewer
PF: Dirk Nowtizki
C: Nikola Pekovic

Regardless of stats, numbers, etc... With Dirk in his prime, as an elite player, could he win with that supporting cast?
 
There was an article on ESPN this morning basically hinting at what I said yesterday in regards to the deal being done. Pretty sure this will happen in late August.

As for Love as a player, I'm not quite sure where to classify him. But I will say this, I think it's more difficult for PF's and C's to carry mediocre rosters to the playoffs than it is for a guard or wing.
 
I just can't classify a guy whose been in the league 6 years & never made the playoffs as elite. Elite players don't just stuff stat sheets, they can carry pretty much any roster into the playoffs. I can't think of any legit elite player who couldn't at least consistently achieve a winning record.
There is a huge difference between inefficiently stuffing stat sheets with counting stats on a bad team versus what Love is doing. He's not Evan Turner putting up 17 PPG in Philly or Beasley averaging 19 PPG by virtue of jacking up bad shots and not improving their teams' performances in the process.

Love doesn't just score a lot of points; he's doing it with remarkable efficiency, particularly for a high-volume scorer. He's also not a player who grabs a lot of rebounds simply because the rest of his team doesn't rebound well or because he's getting rebounds that would've gone to one of his teammates had he not intervened. His team's rebounding % has consistently been higher when Love is on the floor. Net rating differential, RPM and WAR, RAPM...pretty much every metric measuring impact on team performance supports the notion that Minnesota is a far worse team without love. Minnesota's offense completely fell apart any time Love was off the floor. Yes, Minnesota only won 40 games last season, but without Love they don't even sniff 30 wins.

The criticism of Love for not making the playoffs is devoid of context. His first three seasons were completed wasted by a horrible coach and an equally horrible roster. In Love's first two seasons, Rambis didn't think he deserved to play 30 minutes per game, let alone be a regular starter. The same genius also asked Love not to shoot 3s. In Love's third season (his first as a full-time starter), the rest of Minnesota's lineup was atrocious: Darko, Beasley, Wes Johnson, and Ridnour. Beasley--the same guy who couldn't get any minutes off the bench for a Miami team sorely lacking youth and depth, and who's still seeking another minimum contract--led that team in shot attempts (17.1 FGA per game). Three of the five starters (Beasley, Johnson, and manna from heaven) are either on minimum salary contracts or already out of the league, even though they're all within what should be the prime ages of their careers (they're 25, 27, and 29 years). The fourth starter--Ridnour--is a fine backup PG.

He had better players in his fourth season, but Pekovic and Rubio (a rookie) couldn't stay healthy, Johnson was still a starter, and Beasley was still playing significant minutes. It was a bad team that couldn't stay healthy.

Love only played 18 games in his fifth season.

Last season, the T-Wolves had a little more talent but were still less talented than people give them credit for. Case in point:

Not to mention that his team is not void of any talent. They have Pekovic, Rubio, Kevin Martin, Corey Brewer, JJ Barea... Those are decent pieces to have around an elite guy.
Two of those guys--Martin and Barea--are so bad that Minnesota has been trying to pawn them off on Love suitors, and it's not as if either one has a massive, Amare-level albatross of a contract (Martin only has 3 years, $21 mil; Barea has a $4.5 mil expiring).

Pekovic isn't anything close to a star player, but he's a good center...who missed 28 games.

Rubio is a really good defender and a terrific passer, but I don't think the average fan realizes just how handicapped he is by his inability to make shots anywhere on the floor. People used to talk about Rondo the same way, but Rondo has always been a really good finisher (60+% at the rim for most of his career). It's one thing not to be able to shoot , but Rubio can’t even finish when he gets to the rim. Rubio has shot below 50% at the rim in every season of his career, which is unbelievably bad. He's so cognizant of it that he's afraid to shoot.

Brewer is a solid role player. He defends multiple positions and runs the floor well. But he’s also a horrible shooter, which is more of an issue when you already have two other starters who don’t space the floor at all.

Kevin Garnett won MVP in 2004. Minnesota then proceeded to miss the playoffs for the next three seasons, in the heart of KG’s prime. They only won 32 games in KG’s last season. The next year, KG was the best player on a 66-win team. Does anyone believe that KG won MVP, then stopped being elite for three seasons, then resumed being an elite player after getting traded? Or just maybe was an elite player the whole time, while his supporting cast drastically changed in quality.
 
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