NCAA Tournament Games on 3/26

[Gator]

‘Funny how a myth has developed here that the women’s basketball referees are somehow in cahoots with the Big 12 and the NCAA in declaring that Britney Griner doesn’t foul, ...

Some argue that Kim Mulkey has the officials intimidated. All of them? That takes a real stretch of the imagination. ....

I’ve seen Griner play in dozens of games, and know that she rarely fouls. ... Yes, she made a few big mistakes several years ago, but has long since outgrown those tendencies. Griner is the real thing, not someone made outstanding with the aid of the officials.

+ 1

 

[sybarite]

Some people really buy into the company line. Rich and poor are equal. Officials are always fair, ethical, and can not be swayed by anyone's prejudice. People aren't swayed by the way it is supposed to be. Bring on the shackles.

 

[califca]

If we beat Tennessee and make it to the elite eight Coach Coale should be considered for National coach of the year. She should be for the team making it to the Sweet Sixteen. This has been her best coaching job. JMO.

 

[35TangoTango]

Some people really buy into the company line. Rich and poor are equal. Officials are always fair, ethical, and can not be swayed by anyone's prejudice. People aren't swayed by the way it is supposed to be. Bring on the shackles.

From the above, it's obvious that you think that officials call games to favor one side over the other. I'm curious as to how you think it is done. Is it intentional or happening at the subconscious level? If conscious, how do they get their orders? From some shadowy NCAA official before they leave home? From the host coach? or do they all just understand who must be protected for the good of the game? Enquiring minds want to know!

 

[OKUman]

I don't know about any skulduggery by the refs, but I often wonder how a touch foul against a Baylor, ND, UCONN or Tenn. player is a foul and at the other end of the court banging into a player of slapping their arms to knock the ball loose is not. I just wonder.

 

[sybarite]

From the above, it's obvious that you think that officials call games to favor one side over the other. I'm curious as to how you think it is done. Is it intentional or happening at the subconscious level? If conscious, how do they get their orders? From some shadowy NCAA official before they leave home? From the host coach? or do they all just understand who must be protected for the good of the game? Enquiring minds want to know!

Human behavior tends to be biased, naturally. This makes oversight necessary in all aspects of human existence whether it be traffic laws, criminal laws, regulations, or simple adherence to rules at a sporting event. There is always someone trying to get around the rules, laws, regulations, etc.

In the case of officials, a preconceived reputation is often of great influence. IF a pitcher is said to be wild, he is unlikely to get close calls on the corners. If a player has a repuation for quickness, steals may well be permitted that involve a little extra, like slapping a wrist or hand. If Griner blocks a shot by Vegas, the officials are more likely to call it a block than if Vegas were to block a shot by Griner. They didn't quite see it, but Vegas just can't block a Griner shot. Do you call the game or what you think you saw?

This isn't rare. In any human activity, reputation influences the opinions of those regarding the facts in a case. Perhaps, unfortunately, it is now the job of a coach to precondition the opinions about his/her team.

You also see officals get caught up in the emotions of an activity. If a team makes a comeback at the end of the game, especially if it is the home team, a few transgressions are tolerated during the run that would have been fouls earlier in the game. Some officials go as far as to exaggerate calls in the heat of emotions.

There are times that calls are under some outside direction. When an official makes five traveling calls in two minutes at the start of the game, and none thereafter, he was probably instructed to pay attention to traveling. In pro basketball, former officials have stated that they were influenced to protect certain players. I don't know that this is done in college, but if there is money in it, it wouldn't surprise me. That is the motivator.

Officials are human. To suggest otherwise is naive. In order to maintain a consistent and effective flow, there must be oversight. This often breaks down, whether in sports or otherwise.

 

[SoonerNorm]

Human behavior tends to be biased, naturally. This makes oversight necessary in all aspects of human existence whether it be traffic laws, criminal laws, regulations, or simple adherence to rules at a sporting event. There is always someone trying to get around the rules, laws, regulations, etc.

In the case of officials, a preconceived reputation is often of great influence. IF a pitcher is said to be wild, he is unlikely to get close calls on the corners. If a player has a repuation for quickness, steals may well be permitted that involve a little extra, like slapping a wrist or hand. If Griner blocks a shot by Vegas, the officials are more likely to call it a block than if Vegas were to block a shot by Griner. They didn't quite see it, but Vegas just can't block a Griner shot. Do you call the game or what you think you saw?

This isn't rare. In any human activity, reputation influences the opinions of those regarding the facts in a case. Perhaps, unfortunately, it is now the job of a coach to precondition the opinions about his/her team.

You also see officals get caught up in the emotions of an activity. If a team makes a comeback at the end of the game, especially if it is the home team, a few transgressions are tolerated during the run that would have been fouls earlier in the game. Some officials go as far as to exaggerate calls in the heat of emotions.

There are times that calls are under some outside direction. When an official makes five traveling calls in two minutes at the start of the game, and none thereafter, he was probably instructed to pay attention to traveling. In pro basketball, former officials have stated that they were influenced to protect certain players. I don't know that this is done in college, but if there is money in it, it wouldn't surprise me. That is the motivator.

Officials are human. To suggest otherwise is naive. In order to maintain a consistent and effective flow, there must be oversight. This often breaks down, whether in sports or otherwise.

Syb, you really need to stop listening to the voices in your head.

Facts:
Last year we played Baylor twice. Following are stats of those games:

First game- Griner had 3 fouls, Griffin had 2 fouls. Baylor had 19 fouls, OU had 18 fouls.

Second game- Griner had 3 fouls, Griffin had 4 fouls. Baylor had 21 fouls, OU had 26 fouls.

This year:
First game- Griner had 5 fouls, Griffin had 5 fouls. Baylor had 18 fouls, OU had 19 fouls.

Second game- Griner had 3 fouls, Griffin had 3 fouls. Baylor had 16 fouls, OU had 15 fouls.

Totals for those 4 games:

Griner had 14 fouls, Griffin had 14 fouls
Baylor had 74 fouls, OU had 78 fouls

It appears to me that if Kim is really intimidating the officials, so is Sherri.

 

[MsProudSooner]

From the above, it's obvious that you think that officials call games to favor one side over the other. I'm curious as to how you think it is done. Is it intentional or happening at the subconscious level? If conscious, how do they get their orders? From some shadowy NCAA official before they leave home? From the host coach? or do they all just understand who must be protected for the good of the game? Enquiring minds want to know!

If you get coaches in an 'off the record' conversation, they will tell you that some officials make calls based on a player's or team's reputation. Player X is really quick so that was probably a good steal, when it was actually a foul.

We've discussed Gary Blair's comments about coaching his players to be overly aggressive on defense. His theory, which is shared by other coaches, is that if his team is overly aggressive on defense, the officials will get tired of blowing their whistle and won't call all the fouls. The hope is that this will give his team a turnover advantage, which it often does. If the officials call the fouls, as they should, he backs off when his players get in foul trouble. If the officials don't call the fouls, they are giving his team an unfair advantage.

Theoretically, NBA officials are the cream of the crop, yet didn't one of them end of in trouble due to gambling and admitted he tried to influence the point spread because of it? Hopefully, this is rare, but if it happens in the NBA, it can happen in college.

I don't wear a tinfoil hat and I don't think there is any huge conspiracy but I do think officials are human. The best of them are aware of these types of things and try to overcome it. Unfortunately, women's basketball doesn't have as many top notch officials as men's basketball does.

 

[MsProudSooner]

Syb, you really need to stop listening to the voices in your head.

Facts:
Last year we played Baylor twice. Following are stats of those games:

First game- Griner had 3 fouls, Griffin had 2 fouls. Baylor had 19 fouls, OU had 18 fouls.

Second game- Griner had 3 fouls, Griffin had 4 fouls. Baylor had 21 fouls, OU had 26 fouls.

This year:
First game- Griner had 5 fouls, Griffin had 5 fouls. Baylor had 18 fouls, OU had 19 fouls.

Second game- Griner had 3 fouls, Griffin had 3 fouls. Baylor had 16 fouls, OU had 15 fouls.

Totals for those 4 games:

Griner had 14 fouls, Griffin had 14 fouls
Baylor had 74 fouls, OU had 78 fouls

It appears to me that if Kim is really intimidating the officials, so is Sherri.

You're going to use stats from 4 games as your sole examples? Do you really watch games or do you just read box scores? This isn't just about OU vs Baylor. It's about officiating in women's basketball in general.

 

[35TangoTango]

Well, at least we've reduced it from a vast premeditated conspiracy to unconscious favoring of experienced players that they've seen before. Which means they are not protecting Brittney Griner ad the behest of the NCAA or ESPN. They also are not particularly susceptible to the histrionics of Ms. Mulkey. As to the excessive fouling under the theory that the refs won't call them all (the Norm Stewart philosophy), that didn't work too well for West Virginia this year, and it looks like A&M has backed off of that a lot also. There were specific guidelines for the refs this year about excessive contact on the perimeter, and it looks like for most part those guidelines were enforced.

 

[SoonerNorm]

You're going to use stats from 4 games as your sole examples? Do you really watch games or do you just read box scores? This isn't just about OU vs Baylor. It's about officiating in women's basketball in general.

You didn't use any stats at all. Your entire argument is pure conjecture. We can agree that refs make mistakes. We will never agree that Baylor or any other team is drawing unfair advantage from the refs. They aren't perfect but they are not nearly as biased as fans are.

 

[Oliver Hardy]

Tango and Norm unite to be the voice of reason against the conspiracy theory jihadists.

Do I think star players get more favorable calls than non-stars. Sometimes. It is just the nature of the game, but it is far from the level suggested by Mr. Syb.

This board needs to give the we hate Mulkey/Griner/Anything Green and Gold a rest. Did Mulkey cheat? Yes. Does her star, arguably the best player in the history of women's college basketball, catch a break on picking up fouls? Occassionally.

I could say the same thing about Hand, Courtney, Leah, Carlee.

The conversations that include Baylor are based upon an obsessive jealousy, just like most conversations about how Texas sucks (which they always do).

Let's move on to Sunday and talk about Tennessee or why we don't seem to be even close to landing any top 50 players again this year.

Better yet, let's revel in the possibility that maybe, just maybe, this team will put back-to-back kick-butt games together for the first time this season and that we will see a repeat of Monday that enables us to kick to the curb one of the most vaunted programs in history.

Or maybe we can talk about the fact that we literally have the best looking coach in the game today.

 

[SoonerNorm]

Tango and Norm unite to be the voice of reason against the conspiracy theory jihadists.

Do I think star players get more favorable calls than non-stars. Sometimes. It is just the nature of the game, but it is far from the level suggested by Mr. Syb.

This board needs to give the we hate Mulkey/Griner/Anything Green and Gold a rest. Did Mulkey cheat? Yes. Does her star, arguably the best player in the history of women's college basketball, catch a break on picking up fouls? Occassionally.

I could say the same thing about Hand, Courtney, Leah, Carlee.

The conversations that include Baylor are based upon an obsessive jealousy, just like most conversations about how Texas sucks (which they always do).

Let's move on to Sunday and talk about Tennessee or why we don't seem to be even close to landing any top 50 players again this year.

Better yet, let's revel in the possibility that maybe, just maybe, this team will put back-to-back kick-butt games together for the first time this season and that we will see a repeat of Monday that enables us to kick to the curb one of the most vaunted programs in history.

Or maybe we can talk about the fact that we literally have the best looking coach in the game today.

I've already picked the Sooners!

Seriously, this Tennesse team is good but they are not the dominating force we have seen from them in past years. They have lost their share of games that Tenn. of yesteryear would not have lost. They are very beatable this year as Chattanooga has proven. I realize that just because we played well last game does not insure we will play well this game but, this team is sky high right now, playing with confidence, defense has picked up, and we're playing at home. I think we have a 60% chance of winning this game. An Elite Eight would be unbelieveable for this team but, that's exactly what I think will happen.

 

[MsProudSooner]

Tango and Norm unite to be the voice of reason against the conspiracy theory jihadists.

Ummm, to coin a phrase, BS.

No one thinks there is some kind of conspiracy theory and it's a tad bit insulting to insinuate they do. Personally, I base my opinion on what my own eyes see and conversations with coaches over the years. Officials are human. They need to be held just as accountable for their mistakes as players and coaches are.

 

[MsProudSooner]

I've already picked the Sooners!

Seriously, this Tennesse team is good but they are not the dominating force we have seen from them in past years. They have lost their share of games that Tenn. of yesteryear would not have lost. They are very beatable this year as Chattanooga has proven. I realize that just because we played well last game does not insure we will play well this game but, this team is sky high right now, playing with confidence, defense has picked up, and we're playing at home. I think we have a 60% chance of winning this game. An Elite Eight would be unbelieveable for this team but, that's exactly what I think will happen.

Who do you think we can we compare Tennessee to - that we have played?

 

[SoonerNorm]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncw/columns/story?columnist=voepel_mechelle&id=2270147

 

[SoonerNorm]

Who do you think we can we compare Tennessee to - that we have played?

I might say, UCLA. Both are good tough teams but both can be beaten if we play tough. I thought we were tough in the last game and I feel like Sherri will have them playing the same way this Sunday.

 

[MsProudSooner]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncw/columns/story?columnist=voepel_mechelle&id=2270147

Interesting article. This quote illustrates the importance the NCAA gives the topic:

OK … are you surprised that one person is doing all this stuff? Did you know that the NCAA's national coordinator of women's basketball officiating is only a part-time position? (It's the same for men's basketball, by the way.) And that from 1984-1996, Weston essentially did it in an "unofficial" capacity?

 

[SoonerNorm]

Conferences' officiating coordinators are responsible for the accountability of the refs they hire.

It says that refs are hired by and supervised by a conference. How then, do refs get to call games in other conferences as well? Not sure how that works. Do just certain refs get hired by other conferences or do they all switch around?

 

[YCN]

Who do you think we can we compare Tennessee to - that we have played?

How about UCLA? According to the s-curve that the NCAA uses for placement of teams in the tourney, UCLA was the first-placed of the 3-seeds.

Tennessee was placed as the last 2-seed (in the same bracket with the overall top seed Baylor). The logical conclusion would be that the Lady Vols and the Bruins were evaluated as approximately equal in terms of their overall success this season.

I see no reason why Sooner fans should consider this Tennessee squad as anything close to an insurmountable obstacle in the way of a third meeting with Baylor this year.

I love how Kansas was unbowed by their 12-seed en route to beating their host team (5 Colorado) and 4-seed South Carolina, becoming only the second 12 to reach the regional semifinal round. KU was placed as the 46th team, OU was placed as the 24th. Seeds are officially worthless now. Teams will advance on the basis of hustle, execution, and desire.

It's a new ball game now. Being on a surrogate home court with thousands of fans (and more than a few Baylor fans) can be nothing but a positive for the little team that could.