Next years team

[garyeb2]

As old as I am, I still find these discussions interesting, even if they are meaningless. The fact is that none of us knows what the season holds for the 2013-14 school year. Nevertheless, we like to speculate.

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Glass-Half-Empty (Empty): There is no one we can count on to replace the perimeter scoring production we got from Pledger. None of the freshmen guards have shown consistent shooting skills from outside, nor have they been great at creating their own shot.

Glass-Half-Full (Full): The returning guards are young, but they are more athletic and have a higher ceiling than either of the departing senior guards (Steven Pledger and Sam Grooms). The young guards gained invaluable experience and will show improvement as sophomores.

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Empty: Osby turned out to be a fine team leader, which a team must have to have a chance to reach its potential. He is gone and there is nobody like that left on the roster. Neither of the seniors next year (Cameron Clark and Tyler Neal) really have what it takes to be the team leader.

Full: Coach Kruger knows that team leadership is invaluable and he knows how to develop the next team leader. The team leader does not have to be a senior. (Remember Hollis Price?) There are several hard-working gym-rats on the roster and there is a good chance that someone will emerge as a good team leader.

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Empty: Where are the points coming from? With the departure of Osby, Pledger and M'Baye, OU losses all of its double-digit scorers. The following is all we have coming back (conference stats):

PPG .. Minutes .. Class ...... Player
8.2 ....... 28.2 ..... Frosh .... Buddy Heild (G, 6-3, 200)
6.0 ....... 17.1 ..... Junior ... Cameron Clark (G/F, 6-6, 210)
5.2 ....... 21.6 ..... Frosh .... Je’lon Hornbeak (G, 6-3, 180)
2.6 ....... 14.3 ..... Frosh .... Isaiah Cousins (G, 6-3, 185)

Full: The players coming back will just have to step up. They know Coach Kruger's system and realize it is their turn to excel. There are seven newcomers added to the equation, and three of those were redshirts last year that also know Coach Kruger's system. Growing pains on offense can be somewhat offset by the improved defense we expect to see next season.

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Empty: Point Guard play cannot be as good. Sam Grooms was strong with the ball and had a wonderful assist-to-turnover ratio. It is unrealistic to expect a true freshman like Jordan Woodard to excel in the Big-12, and neither Cousins nor Hornbeak are natural PGs.

Full: With Lon Kruger, Steve Henson and Lew Hill, the coaching staff is full of former PGs that can teach the guys how to play winning basketball. The soon-to-be sophomores gained good experience as freshmen and will be improved. Compared to Grooms, all of the options next year will be better defensively.

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Empty: We lost three "post players" with a ton of experience. None of the new post players played one minute of Division-1 basketball last year. Both of the seniors-to-be (Cam Clark and Tyler Neal) are "tweeners" that can play some at the "4" spot, but they are certainly not the tall bruising skilled strong guys you must have in the post. Even if Ryan Spangler and D.J. Bennett turn out to be good players, they will be rusty after being redshirts. Even if Keshaun Hamilton and Edson Avila are 6'10", just how good can they be since they were not recruited by the big time basketball schools. We need impact payers here, not just role-playing projects.

Full: Both Spangler and Bennett put their redshirt to good use as they worked very hard to improve. They benefited as they practiced every day against Osby and M'Baye. While we will certainly miss Osby and M'Baye, the new guys may be better rebounders. While Andrew Fitzgerald could make jumpers and draw out defenders, he was not a strong rebounder off the bench. With the two 6'10" JUCO players coming in, there will be more size in the post rotation than we have had in recent years.

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Hey, I do not know what will happen next season. But I am an optimist about the future of OU basketball. At the very least, I think the team will be fun to watch in 2013-14. I think the team will be competitive in every conference game. I think the team will have a winning conference record. Then in the following year (2014-15), I think the potential is there for OU to climb back into the Top-25. Then the year after that (2015-16), I think the team will be even better.

Now I will admit that my glass was also more than half-full after Jeff Capel's second and third seasons at OU, then the ship hit an iceberg and sank. I believe that Lon Kruger is a much better coach than that. I believe this ship has a captain that will keep us on course for better times ahead. In the meantime, I will enjoy reading these boards. Whether your glass is empty or full, you at least have a passion for OU basketball.

You also have a lot of time on your hands, since you use it to read and reply to threads like this. I think this is called a hobby.

You put a lot of thought into this and did a really fine job of summing up most of the opinions expressed. However, the half full half empty arguments are far from an equal choice coin flip proposition.

OU will be long, athletic, and fast next season. They will be gritty rebounders and defenders. Considering the shape the Big 12 appears to be in and the non-conference schedule will have more home games, that should be enough to win 20 games. If consistent scoring emerges from a couple of places, things will just get better from there.

 

[SoonerTraveler]

You put a lot of thought into this and did a really fine job of summing up most of the opinions expressed. However, the half full half empty arguments are far from an equal choice coin flip proposition.

OU will be long, athletic, and fast next season. They will be gritty rebounders and defenders. Considering the shape the Big 12 appears to be in and the non-conference schedule will have more home games, that should be enough to win 20 games. If consistent scoring emerges from a couple of places, things will just get better from there.

Agree 100%.

It will be interesting to see which players become the consistent scorers. There are some possibilities.

 

[bgrch1350]

Who knows, you might be right. But you virtually always have a negative viewpoint. You're bound to be right some of the time.

You never, to my knowledge, acknowledged how much we benefited by playing the freshmen guards early in the season. You ragged on that approach throughout the first half of the season, but went remarkably silent on it when it clearly began to pay off.

And glass-half-full types always justify their pessimism by insisting that they're just "being realistic," as if more optimistic fans are all pie-in-the-sky dreamers.

I still don't agree with it. It was our experience players that came up big late in the season. Grooms not Cousins.

 

[garyeb2]

I still don't agree with it. It was our experience players that came up big late in the season. Grooms not Cousins.

It was also our experienced players that folded up the tent down the stretch. A loss to TCU and then non competitive in 1st round games in the Big 12 and NCAA tournaments.

Of course that wasn't unexpected. The same bunch had a 7 game end of season tailspin the previous season.

The newcomers kept the enthusiasm and intensity in place till almost the end of the season. With the exception of Osby, the group just departed had hearts about the size of a pea. There is no stat for that.

 

[JBaker]

I'd be pretty shocked if there were very many teams returning less D1 game experience than OU.

Kansas and Texas are two teams in our conference returning just as little or less in that department.

 

[WTSooner]

Kansas and Texas are two teams in our conference returning just as little or less in that department.

True. But KU is replacing those guys with 4 top 50 players. Like I said above, there is a line somewhere on the spectrum to where players are talented enough to overcome a lack of experience. KU typically recruits those types of players. OU typically does not.

As for UT, nobody expects them to be any good next year, either.

 

[luckyc1423]

Biggest and deepest inside in a long time.

Spangler, Bennett, Hamilton and Avila. All athletic and 6'8 or better. Then, there is Neal, Cole and Clark that can help inside in a pinch. Neal and Clark have looked pretty good at the 4.

On the outside, Woodard, cousins, heild, booker and Hornbeak. 4 of 5 are 6'3 or taller and all look athletic. Clark and Neal can also play outside.

I think we will much improved defensively and on the glass (both ends) next year. The question will be whether we can score enough to win. This is probably a question that won't be answered until next year, when we can see if Woodard or cousins and consistently break a defense down off the dribble, whether Booker can shoot like is reported and can otherwise get on the court, and whether Heild, Cousins and Hornbeak improve their shooting from the outside. All, to be seen.

I like the looks of the team though and Lon has done a pretty good job of graduating his classes: Cole, Woodard and Booker are freshman, Heild, Hornbeak, Heild and Spangler are sophomores, Bennett, Hamilton and Avila are Juniors and Cam and Tyler Neal will be seniors.

I am not even sure if this is a serious post. Some of our posters do not have the ability to think realistic.

We have yet to see if spangler, bennett, avila, or hamilton can be athletic at the big 12 level. NONE OF THEM HAVE PLAYED IN THE BIG 12.

You are kidding me, Neal helping out in the post??

Lol, Neal cannot play outside.

 

[luckyc1423]

It was also our experienced players that folded up the tent down the stretch. A loss to TCU and then non competitive in 1st round games in the Big 12 and NCAA tournaments.

Of course that wasn't unexpected. The same bunch had a 7 game end of season tailspin the previous season.

The newcomers kept the enthusiasm and intensity in place till almost the end of the season. With the exception of Osby, the group just departed had hearts about the size of a pea. There is no stat for that.

This is just idiotic. Pledger and fitz both had heart. I beleive grooms had heart.

 

[luckyc1423]

We might not have the player that can fill the void left by Osby, but in my opinion, we can be better at the other four positions. We'll just have to wait and see. I like the kids we have on our roster, including, the ones coming in. Personally, I feel good about next year and see no reason not to be optimistic about the team.

This post makes me laugh. Noone will be as good as mbaye and pledger.

Didnt pledger finish his career with top 10 in 3 pointers made??

Come on guys....

Lets be realisitc.

Yes we are better defensively, but im not sure that is enough. We WILL take a step back this year. Hopefully NIT.

This upcoming years recruiting class will be extremely important for kruger. We need to land some big time talent.

 

[cowboysooner]

Lucky, you and some of the other posters have missed the point of my post. I didn't predict our record or pose an opinion that we would be better than this years team. I only gave an opinion that we would be taller and more athletic than this years team, and likely would be better defensively and on the boards.

Other than 1988, we haven't had many teams in the last 30 years with any real height or depth in the post. We have mostly made due with power forwards. This is the case with most college teams.

I don't know if Avila, Hamilton or Bennett can play (spangler can), but they are tall, long and by most accounts athletic. Same situation with the guards, it is to be seen how good they will become, but they are all tall and athletic.

At the moment, I am having a hard time seeing where our scoring is going to come from, so I am not predicting great things for this team, but I like where Lon is taking us and generally like the looks of the kids he is bringing in. We will just have to wait and see.

 

[WTSooner]

Guard height is overrated, IMO.

Louisville won the NC with 2 guards that were listed at 6'0 and 6'1.

Michigan was runner up with a pg listed at 6'0 (no way Burke is that tall), and kid off the bench that shot lights out that is listed at 5'11.

Indiana was one of the top teams most of the year, and they started two guards listed at 6'0.

In college, you can either play or you can't. I think too many fans get caught in sizes, when at the college level, it probably doesn't matter much.

Hollis wasn't big. Brewer wasn't big. Mookie wasn't big. Q-White wasn't big. Heskett, Raymond, neither was big.

I just want kids that can play. Big, small, I don't care.

 

[garyeb2]

Guard height is overrated, IMO.

Louisville won the NC with 2 guards that were listed at 6'0 and 6'1.

Michigan was runner up with a pg listed at 6'0 (no way Burke is that tall), and kid off the bench that shot lights out that is listed at 5'11.

Indiana was one of the top teams most of the year, and they started two guards listed at 6'0.

In college, you can either play or you can't. I think too many fans get caught in sizes, when at the college level, it probably doesn't matter much.

Hollis wasn't big. Brewer wasn't big. Mookie wasn't big. Q-White wasn't big. Heskett, Raymond, neither was big.

I just want kids that can play. Big, small, I don't care.

You are using the exception to make your point. Your examples were really good players. Size and wingspan can negate some talent disadvantage and with near equal talent size is the difference maker.

 

[bgrch1350]

It was also our experienced players that folded up the tent down the stretch. A loss to TCU and then non competitive in 1st round games in the Big 12 and NCAA tournaments. Of course that wasn't unexpected. The same bunch had a 7 game end of season tailspin the previous season.

The newcomers kept the enthusiasm and intensity in place till almost the end of the season. With the exception of Osby, the group just departed had hearts about the size of a pea. There is no stat for that.

the freshmen in the TCU game were a combined 5 for 21. The 2 leading scoreres were Osby and Fitz. Fitz had a double double in that game.

 

[garyeb2]

This is just idiotic. Pledger and fitz both had heart. I beleive grooms had heart.

Where is the stat for that. Kruger has lamented that group since he got here by saying that they lacked the toughness, will, and desire to win. Translation; they lacked heart.

Every guard on next years team will be a better player than Pledger and every big will be better than Fitz. Cam, with expanded minutes, will likely duplicate M'Baye's numbers.

With the exception of Osby that group were career losers and time after time they gave it up down the stretch. No heart. And to go with that, M'Baye lacked toughness and hated contact. I didn't see that coming.

With the exception of Osby, flushing that group out of the system is a big step forward for the program. The talent level has gone up. They are young and that may bite them from time to time. But, it will take a legit top 20 team to out horse them.

 

[garyeb2]

the freshmen in the TCU game were a combined 5 for 21. The 2 leading scoreres were Osby and Fitz. Fitz had a double double in that game.

And Fitz played four minutes the last game of his career. That is about the amount a player of his caliber should have been getting the whole time. Sure, players like Fitz, Pledger, and Grooms were the best option during their time here. And they all had their moments.

But, having talent like that and worse is the reason the program lost so many games.

 

[bgrch1350]

And Fitz played four minutes the last game of his career. That is about the amount a player of his caliber should have been getting the whole time. Sure, players like Fitz, Pledger, and Grooms were the best option during their time here. And they all had their moments.

But, having talent like that and worse is the reason the program lost so many games.

and we lost that game

 

[luckyc1423]

Lucky, you and some of the other posters have missed the point of my post. I didn't predict our record or pose an opinion that we would be better than this years team. I only gave an opinion that we would be taller and more athletic than this years team, and likely would be better defensively and on the boards.

Other than 1988, we haven't had many teams in the last 30 years with any real height or depth in the post. We have mostly made due with power forwards. This is the case with most college teams.

I don't know if Avila, Hamilton or Bennett can play (spangler can), but they are tall, long and by most accounts athletic. Same situation with the guards, it is to be seen how good they will become, but they are all tall and athletic.

At the moment, I am having a hard time seeing where our scoring is going to come from, so I am not predicting great things for this team, but I like where Lon is taking us and generally like the looks of the kids he is bringing in. We will just have to wait and see.

I gotcha, and see were you are coming from now. I agree we have more "potential" post options. I am just hesitant to say any juco player will produce given how much success we have had from them in the past.

 

[luckyc1423]

Where is the stat for that. Kruger has lamented that group since he got here by saying that they lacked the toughness, will, and desire to win. Translation; they lacked heart.

Every guard on next years team will be a better player than Pledger and every big will be better than Fitz. Cam, with expanded minutes, will likely duplicate M'Baye's numbers.

With the exception of Osby that group were career losers and time after time they gave it up down the stretch. No heart. And to go with that, M'Baye lacked toughness and hated contact. I didn't see that coming.

With the exception of Osby, flushing that group out of the system is a big step forward for the program. The talent level has gone up. They are young and that may bite them from time to time. But, it will take a legit top 20 team to out horse them.

Wow...lol....

 

[KBaden145]

Wow...lol....

I think from the standpoint of what Kruger wants and expects as far as guard play, that is a very real possibility.

 

[WTSooner]

I think from the standpoint of what Kruger wants and expects as far as guard play, that is a very real possibility.

In time, maybe. I don't see it happening over night.

The difference in talent between those guys, isn't enough to offset the experience difference, IMO. When we're comparing apples to apples (ie, the young guys as upperclassmen to the seniors we just lost), I think that statement will be correct.

I think some folks forget how highly regarded by recruiting rankings guys like Pledger and Fitz were.