Repeating the same mistakes

[SoonerNorm]

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KCRuf/Nek's Avatar

Originally Posted by 35TangoTango View Post

I think all things considered, she's exerted quite a bit of influence this year.
All things considered, I get tired of us making the same mistakes over and over.

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Old Today, 09:38 AM #64
SoonerNorm
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Originally Posted by KCRuf/Nek View Post
All things considered, I get tired of us making the same mistakes over and over.

Although overall, I think Sherri has done a very good job so far this year with this team. However, you have touched on something that baffles me too. I do not understand why we never seem to improve in certain basic fundamentals (not just this team but previous teams as well). Either Sherri does not spend enough time in practice on those things or, the guys just don't get it, or if they do get it, can't remember what they've been taught when they get in games. These are smart, well educated, talented players. One would think they all have the capacity to follow simple instructions when it counts the most, on the court. Repeating the same mistakes is really frustrating.

I would love to read what the rest of you think about this subject.

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Old Today, 10:30 AM #65
rocjunkie
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Default Re: $$$$ Bedlam Part Deux $$$$
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Originally Posted by SoonerNorm View Post

Although overall, I think Sherri has done a very good job so far this year with this team. However, you have touched on something that baffles me too. I do not understand why we never seem to improve in certain basic fundamentals (not just this team but previous teams as well). Either Sherri does not spend enough time in practice on those things or, the guys just don't get it, or if they do get it, can't remember what they've been taught when they get in games. These are smart, well educated, talented players. One would think they all have the capacity to follow simple instructions when it counts the most, on the court. Repeating the same mistakes is really frustrating.

I would love to read what the rest of you think about this subject.

It makes you think what these kids were taught before they accepted a college scholarship to play Division I basketball.

Rebounding: One of the basic priciples is blocking out, so why don't we do a good job of it?

Following your shot: Again very seldom does any of the kids do this.

Pump fakes: I don't know if it is even taught on the Jr. high or high school level any more.

Help side defense/off side help: Amazing how many times opposing players drive the lane with no defensive help, with exception to Jo, who is about the only kid who will take a charge.

Excessive dribbling: Maybe that is part of Sherri's offense, I don't know, but you can get the defense to move quicker with a pass than dribbling around the floor.

I could go on, but these are just some of the areas that frustrates me watching the Sooners. Granted we have been successful in spite of some of our lack of solid fundamentals. Are kids expected to know and retain these basic funadamentals when they get to college? I don't know. Just one man's observation. I am curious what every one else thinks.
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Old Today, 10:44 AM #66
MsProudSooner
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Originally Posted by rocjunkie View Post

It makes you think what these kids were taught before they accepted a college scholarship to play Division I basketball.

Rebounding: One of the basic priciples is blocking out, so why don't we do a good job of it?

Following your shot: Again very seldom does any of the kids do this.

Pump fakes: I don't know if it is even taught on the Jr. high or high school level any more.

Help side defense/off side help: Amazing how many times opposing players drive the lane with no defensive help, with exception to Jo, who is about the only kid who will take a charge.

Excessive dribbling: Maybe that is part of Sherri's offense, I don't know, but you can get the defense to move quicker with a pass than dribbling around the floor.

I could go on, but these are just some of the areas that frustrates me watching the Sooners. Granted we have been successful in spite of some of our lack of solid fundamentals. Are kids expected to know and retain these basic funadamentals when they get to college? I don't know. Just one man's observation. I am curious what every one else thinks.
Judging from watching middle school and high school games when my daughters played, I would say only 25% or less have coaches that stress the fundamentals. My daughters had good coaches in elementary and middle school and practiced fundamentals every day. Once they went to high school, their coach never, ever practiced fundamentals. Granted, he was a very bad coach, but judging from other teams I saw, his attitude towards the fundamentals wasn't unusual. AAU was just firing up as my daughters left basketball, but my impression is that most AAU coaches don't spend time on fundamentals, either.

I think that many, but not all, of the kids who are good enough to get a D1 scholarship offer, use their athleticism to overcome their poor fundamentals. Once they get into college, the college coaches are left to try to improve bad fundamentals that have become habit over the years.
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Old Today, 10:54 AM #67
rocjunkie
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Default Re: $$$$ Bedlam Part Deux $$$$
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Originally Posted by MsProudSooner View Post

Judging from watching middle school and high school games when my daughters played, I would say only 25% or less have coaches that stress the fundamentals. My daughters had good coaches in elementary and middle school and practiced fundamentals every day. Once they went to high school, their coach never, ever practiced fundamentals. Granted, he was a very bad coach, but judging from other teams I saw, his attitude towards the fundamentals wasn't unusual. AAU was just firing up as my daughters left basketball, but my impression is that most AAU coaches don't spend time on fundamentals, either.

I think that many, but not all, of the kids who are good enough to get a D1 scholarship offer, use their athleticism to overcome their poor fundamentals. Once they get into college, the college coaches are left to try to improve bad fundamentals that have become habit over the years.
Thanks MPS, that kind of tells me what I have always thought. On the AAU level its all about winning and not about teaching. That's too bad.
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Old Today, 11:18 AM #68
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Originally Posted by rocjunkie View Post

Thanks MPS, that kind of tells me what I have always thought. On the AAU level its all about winning and not about teaching. That's too bad.
I actually think part of the blame lies with the officials. They let high school kids get away with way to much and don't blow their whistles. There was one official in the Tulsa area that actually called walking and double dribbling quite consistently. If more officials did that, coaches would be forced to coach the fundamentals - unless they just didn't care if they won or lost games.
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Old Today, 11:30 AM #69
SoonerNorm
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I actually think part of the blame lies with the officials. They let high school kids get away with way to much and don't blow their whistles. There was one official in the Tulsa area that actually called walking and double dribbling quite consistently. If more officials did that, coaches would be forced to coach the fundamentals - unless they just didn't care if they won or lost games.
When I played, our coach had a whistle and he called fouls, walking, 3 seconds, making stupid passes (even if you got by with one), etc. I have a hard time believing coaches have gotten that far away from fundamentals because I know they are still taught in the courses coaches have to take in college. Now, I have no problem believing many AAU coaches don't teach fundamentals because I doubt they have the time to do so.
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Old Today, 11:37 AM #70
MsProudSooner
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Originally Posted by SoonerNorm View Post

When I played, our coach had a whistle and he called fouls, walking, 3 seconds, making stupid passes (even if you got by with one), etc. I have a hard time believing coaches have gotten that far away from fundamentals because I know they are still taught in the courses coaches have to take in college. Now, I have no problem believing many AAU coaches don't teach fundamentals because I doubt they have the time to do so.
All I can tell you is what I saw when my daughters played. Generally, the better fundamental basketball was played in the smaller classes. The girls weren't quite as bad as the boys, but it was a real problem. If people watching the games didn't know the fundamentals, they wouldn't have a clue because the officials didn't call it.

How many times have we read articles about the men's game where they talk about guys spending too much time perfecting their dunks and 3 point shooting and not enough time on the fundamentals of ball handling and their midrange game. Listen to how amazed the announcers are when male or female players have a good midrange game.
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Old Today, 12:14 PM #71
SoonerNorm
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Default Re: $$$$ Bedlam Part Deux $$$$
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All I can tell you is what I saw when my daughters played. Generally, the better fundamental basketball was played in the smaller classes. The girls weren't quite as bad as the boys, but it was a real problem. If people watching the games didn't know the fundamentals, they wouldn't have a clue because the officials didn't call it.

How many times have we read articles about the men's game where they talk about guys spending too much time perfecting their dunks and 3 point shooting and not enough time on the fundamentals of ball handling and their midrange game. Listen to how amazed the announcers are when male or female players have a good midrange game.

Having played under different coaches in basketball and baseball, I believe it is very reasonable to expect players to adjust to different coaches. My high school baseball coach played catcher in triple A baseball in the pros and he darn sure changed the way I played catcher. If I would have hung to my old habits, there is no way I would have seen any playing time, much less started.

I can't imagine Sherri saying to Maddie (or anyone else), "I really don't like how you do so and so but since that's the way you learned, I'm going to allow you to continue doing it that way".
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Unread Today, 12:39 PM #72
BanjoCharley
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Default Re: $$$$ Bedlam Part Deux $$$$
Simple request Norm, let's start a new thread on this very interesting topic which is way off topic from the original post. I am sick of the topic title (not the really good discussion.)
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Unread Today, 01:02 PM #73
MsProudSooner
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Originally Posted by SoonerNorm View Post
Having played under different coaches in basketball and baseball, I believe it is very reasonable to expect players to adjust to different coaches. My high school baseball coach played catcher in triple A baseball in the pros and he darn sure changed the way I played catcher. If I would have hung to my old habits, there is no way I would have seen any playing time, much less started.

I can't imagine Sherri saying to Maddie (or anyone else), "I really don't like how you do so and so but since that's the way you learned, I'm going to allow you to continue doing it that way".

I'm not saying that's what Sherri says. I'm saying that some of these kids come to college needing to learn fundamental skills and make them habits. Some arrive with some really bad habits they have to 'unlearn'. This is the problem college coaches are faced with. I never go to practice. I never see what the girls work on by themselves. But I can't imagine Sherri not addressing these issues. Some players are going to adjust better than others.
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[BanjoCharley]

Thanks Norm

Sherri probably faces a conundrum with a group of new players coming in. If she is lucky they are fundamentally sound, if she isn't, they are a mixed bag of weaknesses which are difficult to fix because they are all different. If everyone needed work on one thing it might be easier, if they all need individual coaching it gets in the way of team practice.

 

[SoonerNorm]

Thanks Norm

Sherri probably faces a conundrum with a group of new players coming in. If she is lucky they are fundamentally sound, if she isn't, they are a mixed bag of weaknesses which are difficult to fix because they are all different. If everyone needed work on one thing it might be easier, if they all need individual coaching it gets in the way of team practice.

I really like your explanation! I wonder if older players like Whitney, Jazmine, Jo, etc take a leadership role in the summers working with the newbies on fundamentals.

 

[rocjunkie]

I really like your explanation! I wonder if older players like Whitney, Jazmine, Jo, etc take a leadership role in the summers working with the newbies on fundamentals.

You think they should. I remember when Courtney was a freshman and she would go against Becky Preston in practice, Courtney couldn't believe how Becky would talk and teach her where to go, how to defend properly, and all the help she would give during practice. I like to think most of the girls would do the same thing.

To tag on to what Norm was talking about when he played in high school, My coach was insane on fundamentals. We would spend the first hour on just fundamentals alone, then would go over offensive plays and defensive positioning. In college our coach did the same. The first hour or so was on fundamentals. We did the "bubble" rebounding drill one or two times a week. In pre-season, M-W-F we did offensive drills and on T & Th we did defensive drills. The first half of practice was on individual the second half team emphasis. Since I haven't had a chance to watch a Sooner practice, I sure would like to know how much is spent on fundamentals and how much is not.

 

[MsProudSooner]

I really like your explanation! I wonder if older players like Whitney, Jazmine, Jo, etc take a leadership role in the summers working with the newbies on fundamentals.

Come to think of it, that's another good reason to have a S&C coach who was also a basketball player. In the summer, they have much more contact w/ the S&C coach than the other coaches.

 

[sybarite]

It is curious that in almost every sport, the teachers are not the superstar players. You rarely see the All-American in football or basketball who become good coaches. You almost never see a Hall of Fame baseball player become a manager. The guy who becomes a good coach is the kid who had to do everything right just in order to be able to play. He is the kid who had to know and practice every fundamental in order to make the team. It's the guard who had to play defense and set up plays for those who were better athletes just to be able to see time on the floor. The manager is the second string catcher who mostly sat and watched everyone do things wrong that cost his team wins.

The superstar athlete didn't have to learn in order to stay on the floor.

 

[MsProudSooner]

It is curious that in almost every sport, the teachers are not the superstar players. You rarely see the All-American in football or basketball who become good coaches. You almost never see a Hall of Fame baseball player become a manager. The guy who becomes a good coach is the kid who had to do everything right just in order to be able to play. He is the kid who had to know and practice every fundamental in order to make the team. It's the guard who had to play defense and set up plays for those who were better athletes just to be able to see time on the floor. The manager is the second string catcher who mostly sat and watched everyone do things wrong that cost his team wins.

The superstar athlete didn't have to learn in order to stay on the floor.

Our men's bb coach was pretty salty but if my memory serves, he was also one of those fundamentally sound people that drove you crazy when you saw him play because he made it look so effortless.

 

[SoonerNorm]

The Stoops brothers were pretty good college football players too.

 

[sybarite]

Our men's bb coach was pretty salty but if my memory serves, he was also one of those fundamentally sound people that drove you crazy when you saw him play because he made it look so effortless.

As I remember Kruger, he wasn't a great athlete, and you wondered how he beat you so easily. But, he was smarter than you and took advantage of every mistake you made.

 

[MsProudSooner]

The Stoops brothers were pretty good college football players too.

True, but I think what he means is that players like AD don't become great coaches. If everything came easy to them, they don't know how to teach others. I don't think it all came easy for Coach Kruger or the Stoops brothers.

 

[SoonerinNC]

I'm not as concerned as some on the rebounding. We normally get more than our opponents and so far we have this year. But in the Big 12 we are a couple behind. We are actually ahead in defensive rebounds where blocking out is more an issue. We are getting outrebounded in the offensive category where we need to beat the other team blockouts.

Really not a bad rebounding effort when Campbell and Ellenberg are giving away significant issues to the person they are guarding. Also while Griffin is improving she is still slow to the ball and loses out on a number of rebounds that McFarland or KayKay would get.

Also you are going to give up layups when you pressure the ball as we do.

That doesn't bother me as much as the impossible passes, particularly the low bounce passes to Griffin, or the forced shots like Hook put up against OState.

We can put on some impressive runs but then we seem to sink into bad shot selection and unforced turnovers and let big leads get away or get blown out of the game like we did in the second half at OState after making a great comeback from an early hole.

I know Sherri likes them to push the envelope but some of the passes they make are totally undisciplined with zero chance of success.

 

[SoonerNorm]

As I remember Kruger, he wasn't a great athlete, and you wondered how he beat you so easily. But, he was smarter than you and took advantage of every mistake you made.

Lon Kruger was a GREAT athlete! He was drafted in the NBA by the Atlanta Hawks, by the St. Louis Cardinals in baseball, and invited to the quarterback camp by the Dallas Cowboys. There aren't very many athletes in America who can claim those credentials.

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

I can only speak for the way I was taught - by my dad and by coaches - and the way I coached my girls teams in both basketball and softball.

I'm 52 so it's not exactly peach basket days but I realize I'm not part of the new wave. When I was a kid we had(still do) five HS in our district. In the summer there would be a two week clinic at each HS, run by the coaches from the schools. We'd go to all five. We had endless drills of passing(step to catch, step to pass), dribbling(both hands), shooting(proper form and both hands), endless ball handling, and basic fundamentals. We ran drills like three on two continuity, dribble stops, ball fakes, etc. You learned to do things like follow your pass, weave drills(ball never hitting the floor), defensive slide, and any other mind numbing drill they could think of. Actual scrimmages were the last thing we worked on. When my dad coached us we learned the basics. We used dribble goggles - even homemade ones - and we used a Sure Shot ball(one with a hand and a thumb hole on it). It wasn't sexy and exciting but by the time we got old enough we knew how to play.

I think as time has gone along a lot of programs have gotten away from this. If a kid isn't sound when he/she gets to college at times the coach doesn't seem to think they have the time to show them. If the kid doesn't want to learn then they should have the balls to sit them down. It infuriates me to watch talented players that can't throw the proper pass or get in front of someone on defense. vYou rebound with your legs and your back end. you don't have to jump out of the gym to be a good rebounder. Listen to Bobby Knight long enough and you'll get tired of hearing about the dribble stop and the ball fake. Think most of these kids know what the triple threat position is? I wonder how many kids really know how to break a press besides trying to run through it? People always marveled at Princeton beating teams in the tourney and it wasn't because they were jumping over everyone and dunking to get on Sports Center. Fancy is fine but usually the teams that end up winning play defense and take care of the ball.

Is it the job of coaches to have kids prepared to play at the next level? Of course but it doesn't always happen. If a college coach is going to invest in a kid then he/she ought to be willing to put in the time to get the kid ready to play.

As I remember Kruger, he wasn't a great athlete, and you wondered how he beat you so easily. But, he was smarter than you and took advantage of every mistake you made.

Well he was 2 time POY in the Big 8 and had tryouts with the NFL and MLB. He'd start at PG for a lot of teams right now.

 

[sybarite]

I remember him as performing better than he was. I don't think he had the natural ability of many he played against, but he played much more intelligently.

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

I remember him as performing better than he was. I don't think he had the natural ability of many he played against, but he played much more intelligently.

Although I didn't care for his coach, Jack Hartman, he was a pretty good coach. He also coached Walt Frazier in college. Lon had a good mentor. He was sort of a coach on the floor.

 

[sybarite]

Although I didn't care for his coach, Jack Hartman, he was a pretty good coach. He also coached Walt Frazier in college. Lon had a good mentor. He was sort of a coach on the floor.

Agreed on all counts. But, I did despise Hartman's college coach. When defense consists of stationing the sport's only seven footer under the basket to block all shots (goal-tending being permitted until his presence), I don't give that coach much credit for being a good defensive coach.

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

Agreed on all counts. But, I did despise Hartman's college coach. When defense consists of stationing the sport's only seven footer under the basket to block all shots (goal-tending being permitted until his presence), I don't give that coach much credit for being a good defensive coach.

I always remember that Hartman helped promote the barn ball mentality that existed in the Big 8. Him, Ted Qwens, and Norm Stewart ruled the old days. They had a fit when Billy and Johnny Orr came a long. Remember when he and Curtis Redding couldn't get along? I always remember him doing the commentary on games and losing his mind and crapping all over Billy and his style of coaching/playing.

 

[MsProudSooner]

I always remember that Hartman helped promote the barn ball mentality that existed in the Big 8. Him, Ted Qwens, and Norm Stewart ruled the old days. They had a fit when Billy and Johnny Orr came a long. Remember when he and Curtis Redding couldn't get along? I always remember him doing the commentary on games and losing his mind and crapping all over Billy and his style of coaching/playing.

What is 'barn ball mentality'? My mind conjures up Henry Iba coaching his team to a 43 - 42 victory - in a barn! :ez-laugh:

 

[SoonerNorm]

I remember him as performing better than he was. I don't think he had the natural ability of many he played against, but he played much more intelligently.

I don't know how a player performs better in their career than they really are. I guess you could say the same thing about Adrian Peterson, Sam Bradford, Courtney Paris, and any other great player.

 

[SoonerSpock]

I remember him as performing better than he was. I don't think he had the natural ability of many he played against, but he played much more intelligently.

No question that Kruger played more intelligently than many he opposed however the fault of your logic is it is based on your memory. Having sat in the old field house and gone to Manhattan 2-3 times, actually saw him play in person 5-7 times, because of my cousin playing for the Sooners at the time I can tell you Kruger was one hell of an athlete. Not the best athlete of his time but much much better than most.

Of course back then (1971-74) for all practical purposes your opportunity to see him play was limited to going to the games in person.