Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA wins?

Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

Man, is it frustrating to see our own fans give oswho more credit than they are due.

Comparing our series lead over the Aggies to ut's series lead over OU in football is apples and oranges, and here's why:

ut's lead over us really was built up in the early part of the 20th century; since Word War II, that series, as most fans know, is very even.

OU's lead over oswho in basketball was NOT just built up during the pre-Iba years -- the aggies cut into our series lead over them during his tenure in Stillwater (through a combination of them being good and us being bad), and we have built it up again since Iba retired.

Pre-Iba (1908-'34) 43-9 (.827)
Iba years (1935-'70) 27-52 (.342)
Post-Iba (1971-'15) 64-37 (.634)

So after 1970, Iba's last season, the series stood at 70-61 in OU's favor. In the 45 years since we have largely dominated them once again. They enjoyed 36 years of relative dominance over us; we've enjoyed 72 years of relative dominance over them.

They've had two good coaches in their history, Iba and Sutton, and there's no real argument to be made for any of their others, except MAYBE Paul Hansen (one NCAAA appearance) and Ford (five appearances, just a single game won)

We've had Drake, Tubbs, and Sampson, and there are arguments to be made for three or four others (Macleod, Kruger, maybe Capel and Bliss). I'm really inclined to include Kruger in the first group, but I'm bending over backward to be fair.
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

so if the LNC becomes "HISTORIC Lloyd noble center"..does the pendulum swing the other way then?...all I know is that I am glad to be a fan of a program like the type that Lon has rebuilt vs what's happening in Stillwater
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

skyvue said:
Man, is it frustrating to see our own fans give oswho more credit than they are due.
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Exactly. OSU was better during the IBA era. OU has been better since with a relatively even period when Sampson and Sutton were the coaches. In the modern era these programs are not equal. Not even close to equal. The only thing equal is final four appearances. OU has more NCAA wins, dominates the head to head, has finished above them in the conference more times than not, etc. etc.
 
skyvue said:
Man, is it frustrating to see our own fans give oswho more credit than they are due.

Comparing our series lead over the Aggies to ut's series lead over OU in football is apples and oranges...
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Seconded and seconded...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

thebigabd said:
lol @ touting your national titles from a time when Adolf Hitler was still leading Germany.

Date of OSU National Championship: March 27th, 1945
Date of German Surrender in WW2: May 7th, 1945
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#Damn #micdrop
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

thebigabd said:
lol @ touting your national titles from a time when Adolf Hitler was still leading Germany.

Date of OSU National Championship: March 27th, 1945
Date of German Surrender in WW2: May 7th, 1945
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Are you telling me that OSU won their national championship with a bunch of draft dodgers?
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

garyeb2 said:
Are you telling me that OSU won their national championship with a bunch of draft dodgers?
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If not that at a minimum when all of the real men were fighting a war.
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

skyvue said:
Ugh. Tramel couldn't have spent more than ten minutes on that story; such sloppy logic.

He wrote, "wins in the last 30 years should mean more than wins in 1954." He then, of course, goes on to ignore his own statement and focus solely on all-time wins. For the record, here are the two schools' respective tourney records over the past 30 years:

OU: 28-22
oswho: 23-18
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Maybe less. I'm 90% sure he has written this exact same article before.
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

SoonerTraveler said:
Some truth in that. Also, Tramel knows how to stir the pot. Look what he has done here.
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By job description Tramel is a commentator. A commentators job is to create controversy to maximize readership. He is just doing his job and being correct in what he publishes does not rate high on his list of priorities.
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

MNsooner said:
Okay I think I found that article:

http://www.soonerfans.com/archive/index.php/t-132007.html?

It's kind of sad that he is just recycling old articles. That's how you know he really has given up.
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I can't swear to it, but I think Geoff may have shared a post I put together years ago. If not, it's very similar.

In any case, dismissing all those other factors and focusing only on tourney wins is misguided, in my opinion. It's one of the few things I don't like -- the laser focus on the part of many on the posteason. And college football may be headed down that path.
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

As I've said before, a big reason why I keep contesting this "OSU is better in basketball" nonsense is for two major reasons: (1) if some potential OU season ticket-holders starting buying that garbage, it can mess up attendance something fierce; and (2) it's a false narrative that can be used against OU in in-state recruiting.

Plus, I just flat-out hate false narratives where OU is concerned, in any sport.
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

When OSU won the ncaa ,it was like winning the NIT today. The NIT in the forties was the better tournament . It was reversed
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

When the aggies won their titles there were 8 teams in the tournament. Yes they won but 6 games in 2 years and 2 national titles. Not exactly a daunting road to winning titles.
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

Dcox said:
When the aggies won their titles there were 8 teams in the tournament. Yes they won but 6 games in 2 years and 2 national titles. Not exactly a daunting road to winning titles.
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while others were busy you know winning a war
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

Max Power said:
while others were busy you know winning a war
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Yea I know my pa was at pearl harbor and made it through!! :)
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

skyvue said:
I can't swear to it, but I think Geoff may have shared a post I put together years ago. If not, it's very similar.

In any case, dismissing all those other factors and focusing only on tourney wins is misguided, in my opinion. It's one of the few things I don't like -- the laser focus on the part of many on the posteason. And college football may be headed down that path.
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This is a head to head comparison looking at OU and OSU basketball. It was compiled using Soonersports.com, OkState.com, and Big12Sports.com. The point of this thread is to show just how biased the local media has been in favoring the Oklahoma State basketball program, and to educate both OU and OSU fans alike on how OU's program has a slight edge in tradition.
OU basketball vs. OSU basketball: a statistical analysis since the inception of the Big 8.

The Big 8, as we knew it, came into being for the 1958-59 season. The name "Big 8" wasn't officially adopted until the 1964 season. From 1958-59 through 1964, the conference had been known as the Missouri Valley Intercollegiate Athletic Association. Oklahoma State was actually in the Missouri Valley Conference from 1928-1958.

So, these statistics are from the 1958-59 season to the last completed season (07-08). The statistics were compiled using a variety of sources, including soonerstats.com, big12sports.com, and okstate.com.

Oklahoma State
Total win/loss record: 779-628, .554
NCAA tournament appearances: 15
Final 4 appearances: 2
Title game appearances: 0
NIT appearances: 5
Conference titles: 2 big 8 (1 shared), 1 big 12
Conference tournament titles: 2 big 8, 2 big 12

Oklahoma
Total win/loss record: 920-540, .630
NCAA tournament appearances: 23
Final 4 appearances: 2
Title game appearances: 1
NIT appearances: 7
Conference titles: 5 big 8, 1 big 12 (shared)
Conference tournament titles: 4 big 8, 3 big 12

Overall head to head since 58-59

Oklahoma 64, Oklahoma State 46

In the 51 seasons (including this year) since OSU joined the Big-8, OU has a better conference record 36 times, OSU 11, 4 the same.

Since the inception of the Big 12 conference, OSU has only finished ahead of OU in the conferences win/loss record one (1) time:
96-97 OU 9-7 OSU 7-9
97-98 OU 11-5 OSU 11-5
98-99 OU 11-5 OSU 10-6
99-00 OU 12-4 OSU 12-4
00-01 OU 12-4 OSU 10-6
01-02 OU 13-3 OSU 10-6
02-03 OU 12-4 OSU 10-6
03-04 OU 8-8 OSU 14-2
04-05 OU 12-4 OSU 11-5
05-06 OU 11-5 OSU 6-10
06-07 OU 6-10 OSU 6-10
07-08 OU 9-7 OSU 7-9
08-09 OU 13-3 OSU 9-7

So, you want to go back all-time? That is fine with me. All-Time Stats:

OU: All Time Record 1,468-936 (.611) OSU: 1452-1018 (.588).
126 Bedlam Wins 89
10 winning coaches 6
21 different All-Americans 17
22 Conference Championships 17
10/11 winning records against the Big 12 5/11
34 1000 point scorers 30
8 Oylmpic Appearences ?
40 NBA Draft Selections 32
26 NCAA appearences 23
32 Total Tournament appearences 31
157 100 point games 39
51 game home win streak 46
OU has spent more weeks in the AP Top 25 poll than OSU.
OU has had more winning seasons than OSU.
OU has a better all time home winning percentage than OSU.
OU has made it to 4 final fours (2 Championship games)

OSU (or Oklahoma A&M as it was called back then) has won two national championships ('45 and '46) in basketball. This is a stat that simply cannot be ignored, and really the main reason why the Cowboys are even in the ballpark with Oklahoma in terms of basketball program comparisons. I will not take anything away from their accomplishments but consider this:

1. These championships happened 62 and 63 years ago. Most of us on this board were not even born when the Cowboys won the championship. Before you bombard me with the 50's football championships, at least we have won one in the new millennium (2000), and, this is about basketball, not football.

2. The road to the winning the championship was a lot less meddlesome back in the old A&M days. The Aggies only had to win three (3) games to be crowned the champion unlike the grueling 6 games of the modern era. That is certainly not the Cowboy's fault, but should at least be mentioned. Four of OSU's six final fours were obtained via this three game system. Note: two of Oklahoma's 4 were also obtained this way. Eight of Oklahoma State's eleven Elite 8 appearances were accomplished by only having to win two games in the tournament! Note: 3 of OU's 8 Elite 8 appearances were won in this fashion.

3. The good old NIT was still a major player during this time. It was an era in which the NCAA was battling for dominance. While it is debatable which tournament ran supreme during these championships, one thing is for sure, not all the good teams were playing in the NCAA tournament. Could that of impacted OSU's two victories? Who knows? But again, worth mentioning.

4. All-American Bob Kurland was a game changing center for the pokes. There was no goal tending back then, so the big 7 footer could just sit back and guard the goal until the cows came home. It was certainly within the rules of the day, but it obviously gave the Cowboys a big advantage that they wouldn't have had a few years later (because of Kurland).

If OSU fans really want to use all of that success from the Iba days as the main basis of claiming superiority over Oklahoma (despite all the facts that I have presented in this comparison) then I think they might be living in the past just a tad! If I were them, then I would certainly want something more recent to hang my hat on in this debate.
________________

Is that what you are talking about. It is out of date
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

NMSooner'80 said:
As I've said before, a big reason why I keep contesting this "OSU is better in basketball" nonsense is for two major reasons: (1) if some potential OU season ticket-holders starting buying that garbage, it can mess up attendance something fierce; and (2) it's a false narrative that can be used against OU in in-state recruiting.

Plus, I just flat-out hate false narratives where OU is concerned, in any sport.
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Agreed! The moronic media that bows down to the cowpukes with the inferiority complex are just as bad as the idiotic cowpuke fans.
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

DenverSooner said:
Is that what you are talking about. It is out of date
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I think so? I don't want to take credit for someone else's efforts. But yeah, definitely out of date. I'm thinking I compiled my stats four or five years ago, which probably means it was 8-10 years ago.
 
Re: Ridiculous: OSU's tradition "better" (DOK) only because of total NCAA w

Whoever did it, I like it and put it into my notes so I could copy and paste it for future reference.

What needs to happen is OU needs to make another final four and ideally win a title. That would give OU more tournament wins and more final fours. Then the local media will have virtually nothing to say for the BS argument that OSU is a better basketball school.
 
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