Some thoughts.....

[SoonerfanTU]

We suck...why even be a fan if you can't get any enjoyment from a win. Must be a sad existance,.

Where did I say we suck? We aren't a good team. Look at our record. Look at some of our recent games. We played really well today. There is no reason we shouldn't play similiarly every game. I'm plenty happy with the win today. Some of you guys decided to point out one of the few negative things I said above, and go to town. HAVE FUN! I said plenty of good stuff. Don't like it, don't read it.

 

[BanjoCharley]

There is no reason we shouldn't play similiarly every game.

Totally wrong. We are not a video game. Humans have ups and downs. It is very difficult to play consistently "every game." That's why there are upsets all over the place. That's why no one knows who is going to win until the game is played. If every game were played similarly by every team we would know who the national champion was about a third of the way into the season.

 

[Sooner Quick]

Crocker has bruised ribs and I imagine it probably affects his shot some but he must have aggrevated his ankle sometime during the game because he was fine early in the game but in the 2nd half I noticed him favoring it a little.

 

[StatGeek]

He isn't playing great. He shot 37.5% from the field today, that is not good. The reason his percentage is so low, is b/c he is being asked to do too much.

Just think back to the "good" OU teams. On most of them, does Cade start, or come off the bench? And don't compare his numbers to a player on those teams, or compare him head to head, simply ask yourself, if he is on that team, does he start or come off the bench. I think you know the answer to that yourself.

Heck, he wouldn't even start this year if we were healthy and had decent post play. He wouldn't start over TMG, WW, or Crocker, if healthy.



They also missed 11 FT's, and we doubled Pittman most of the day. Gary Johnson the other "big", also had 11 points. Our post D wasn't good today, by any stretch.

Thinking back to the "good OU teams" Does Cade start?

Well, lets see .....................

C Davis FG% 3% REB AST STL PTS
2010 39.0 33.6 3.6 0.7 1.6 9.7

Godbold FG% 3% REB AST STL PTS
2005 39.7 38.2 2.5 1.0 0.7 4.6
2006 37.7 35.0 3.2 1.4 0.9 5.7
2007 35.0 33.6 4.7 1.7 1.3 7.4
2008 35.5 32.6 4.0 1.8 1.1 7.7
Career 36.5 34.0 3.6 1.5 1.0 6.4

M. Neal FG% 3% REB AST STL PTS
2006 39.7 42.4 2.6 2.0 1.1 12.4
2007 38.8 31.0 2.6 1.7 1.0 10.0
Career 39.3 37.5 2.6 1.8 1.1 11.1

J Williams FG% 3% REB AST STL PTS
2004 34.4 31.4 2.8 1.5 1.3 5.8
2005 37.3 32.9 2.5 2.2 1.1 6.8
Career 36.0 32.2 2.7 1.9 1.2 6.3

D Alexander FG% 3% REB AST STL PTS
2003 38.5 35.0 3.6 0.9 0.5 7.1
2004 44.0 37.4 4.8 1.3 0.7 9.6
Career 41.4 36.2 4.2 1.1 6.0 8.3

J Detrick FG% 3% REB AST STL PTS
2002 39.9 27.2 3.5 1.2 1.2 9.2
2004 39.0 25.8 2.9 1.3 1.5 11.4
Career 39.2 26.5 3.2 1.2 1.3 10.3

E Ere FG% 3% REB AST STL PTS
2002 42.7 33.0 5.8 1.6 1.0 14.6
2003 37.8 30.7 4.8 1.9 0.9 12.9
Career 40.4 31.9 5.3 1.8 0.9 13.7

I could keep posting player stats but this post would be even longer so I will just post some other names for consideration.

K Newton
1999
2000

E Martin
1998
1999

R Allison
1997
1998

L Moore
1997

C Curry
1994
1995

After looking at the facts I think he would certainly have a chance to start over several of these players, but I will let the people decide.

 

[Sooner Quick]

You can't really look at stats either to get a feel for Cade's game. There is so much good that he does that doesn't show up in the stat sheet.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

Crocker has bruised ribs and I imagine it probably affects his shot some

Ouch. I figured something was up, you could tell. Crocker has been a man this year with his play at the "4".

 

[MsProudSooner]

I've heard coaches say that they will celebrate a win today and then go back to work the next day. As a matter of fact, I heard Coach Capel say that today. Sometimes fans need to do the same thing. Celebrate the victory today and to back to the usual sniping at players tomorrow.

 

[Sooner Quick]

Ouch. I figured something was up, you could tell. Crocker has been a man this year with his play at the "4".

I've had bruised ribs before and it really affects your breathing too, especially when your breathing hard as Crocker was so I'm sure that didn't help either. He has really manned it up this year.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

You can't really look at stats either to get a feel for Cade's game. There is so much good that he does that doesn't show up in the stat sheet.

True, but that can be said about alot of good players.

I just find it funny that above, I specially said don't use stats as the reason to start him over another player, and sure enough, StatGeek does just that.

That said, I'm not sure Cade starts over any of those. His game is pretty close to Godbold's, but David was the better defender of the smaller players, and was more consistent. Consistency is the biggest thing with Cade. He's getting "points" lately out of necessity. And when, if, Warren were to come back healthy, Cade's role would be limited, and his shot attempts would go down. Everything I've said above plays out this year when were are healthy. And projecting to next year, most folks either have Davis starting at the 3, or probably not starting. If we start TMG, DAvis, and Cam, we are going to struggle again. Cade cannot guard 2's all game. On occassion, yes. Realistically, he needs to be guarding 3's though. Sometimes that is the same type of player, but not always.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

I've heard coaches say that they will celebrate a win today and then go back to work the next day. As a matter of fact, I heard Coach Capel say that today. Sometimes fans need to do the same thing. Celebrate the victory today and to back to the usual sniping at players tomorrow.

I'm not sniping. I'm perfectly happy with the way Cade has played this year, and the way he played tonight. I think he is getting just about all out of himself as a basketball player as he can. That is all I ask of any player. When that isn't good enough, it becomes a recruiting/coaching issue.

I'm simply saying, I hope next year we have enough talent around Cade, that he can come off the bench. I think that would be an EVEN BETTER role for him. A chance to help the team even more.

 

[red recluse]

i thought crocker hurt his hip as well after james body checked him. his fifth foul seemed like it was his way of saying i can't go anymore.

 

[SoonerTraveler]

Good observations TU.

In many ways, Cade is the heart and soul of this team. He plays hard all the time. He is more athletic than many give him credit for. He plays hard. He battles. He rebounds He fights. Cade is a winner. He plays hard.

I love to watch him play. It will take a special player to move Cade out of the starting lineup next season.

 

[red recluse]

don't worry tu. i didn't read anything into it. i don't agree with limiting cade's minutes because he's more than just a shooting %. but i think what you said is being taken way out of proportion because you were complimentary in other areas. if we can't be a little critical then there are no good discussions.

with that said, tmg, get the ball across half court quicker. you are scaring me when you step over the line and the shot clock is at 25 or 26.

 

[StatGeek]

True, but that can be said about alot of good players.

I just find it funny that above, I specially said don't use stats as the reason to start him over another player, and sure enough, StatGeek does just that.

That said, I'm not sure Cade starts over any of those. His game is pretty close to Godbold's, but David was the better defender of the smaller players, and was more consistent. Consistency is the biggest thing with Cade. He's getting "points" lately out of necessity. And when, if, Warren were to come back healthy, Cade's role would be limited, and his shot attempts would go down. Everything I've said above plays out this year when were are healthy. And projecting to next year, most folks either have Davis starting at the 3, or probably not starting. If we start TMG, DAvis, and Cam, we are going to struggle again. Cade cannot guard 2's all game. On occassion, yes. Realistically, he needs to be guarding 3's though. Sometimes that is the same type of player, but not always.

Sorry, I forgot I had to submit your demands. Instead we will simply rely on our memories, much more thorough that way.

Cade and Goldbold are very similar, essentially identical IMO. Cade is better all around player than Neal, Newton, Martin, Allison, Williams and probably Detrick. You could even make an argument for him being better than Ere although I personally wouldn't buy it.

I don't have an issue with your idea that Cade wouldn't start if we only played 3 perimeter players, I think your right about that, but the idea that Cade could only start on a "bad" OU team is completely false, and based on nothing more than your hazy memory.

Can you tell me why these other players would start over Cade??

 

[SoonerfanTU]

Cade and Goldbold are very similar, essentially identical IMO. Cade is better all around player than Neal, Newton, Martin, Allison, Williams and probably Detrick. You could even make an argument for him being better than Ere although I personally wouldn't buy it.


Can you tell me why these other players would start over Cade??

All of those players started on the type of team that I specified above? I don't believe so. Some of those teams scraped and clawed their way into the Dance, and certainly weren't top 25 teams. Or top 35 teams probably.

Doing about 5 minutes of looking, that probably eliminates Allison.

Here are the teams under Kelvin and Capel that I would say fit the description of "good" that I gave:

'95
'00
'01
'02
'03
'05
'06
'09

Keep in mind, I still don't think Davis can guard, effectively, a true 2 all game. In '01 Raymond got booted, and Newton started a few games after he was gone. Newton shot 43% from 3 that year. Detrick didn't start on any of those teams above either. And comparing him to Ere is a slap in the face to Ebi. We all know Ebi had a down senior year, and most of us blame his hand injury for that. Neal isn't in the discussion either. His jr year, he only started 10 games, despite shooting 42% from three, and being 4th in the team in scoring.

 

[StatGeek]

All of those players started on the type of team that I specified above? I don't believe so. Some of those teams scraped and clawed their way into the Dance, and certainly weren't top 25 teams. Or top 35 teams probably.

Doing about 5 minutes of looking, that probably eliminates Allison.

Here are the teams under Kelvin and Capel that I would say fit the description of "good" that I gave:

'95
'00
'01
'02
'03
'05
'06
'09

Keep in mind, I still don't think Davis can guard, effectively, a true 2 all game. In '01 Raymond got booted, and Newton started a few games after he was gone. Newton shot 43% from 3 that year. Detrick didn't start on any of those teams above either. And comparing him to Ere is a slap in the face to Ebi. We all know Ebi had a down senior year, and most of us blame his hand injury for that. Neal isn't in the discussion either. His jr year, he only started 10 games, despite shooting 42% from three, and being 4th in the team in scoring.

I suggest you do a little more homework my friend, five minutes obviously wasn't enough.

You are quite selective, we have a program that has been to the postseason how many times, and only 8 of them were "good"? Further you said that "good" OU teams finish in the top 3 or 4 of the Big XII, based on the season's you list, I will conclude that you have changed the rules?

Why do I need to keep in mind what you think about Cade's ability to defend the 2? Why don't you keep in my he doesn't have to defend the 2. Besides defense isn't all about ability, defense is about willingness.

As for Ere, I love the guy, grew up with him and I believe without question he is a better player, however at some point you have to look at production, and based on production an argument can be made. Keep in mind Ere was a JUCO transfer so you didn't see his growing pains in his 1st & 2nd seasons. Davis' first two seasons have obviously irrevocably tainted your perception of him.

 

[NickZepp]

Godbold isn't a bad comparason to Davis but I think Davis is more athletic.

 

[StatGeek]

All of those players started on the type of team that I specified above? I don't believe so. Some of those teams scraped and clawed their way into the Dance, and certainly weren't top 25 teams. Or top 35 teams probably.

Doing about 5 minutes of looking, that probably eliminates Allison.

Here are the teams under Kelvin and Capel that I would say fit the description of "good" that I gave:

'95
'00
'01
'02
'03
'05
'06
'09

Keep in mind, I still don't think Davis can guard, effectively, a true 2 all game. In '01 Raymond got booted, and Newton started a few games after he was gone. Newton shot 43% from 3 that year. Detrick didn't start on any of those teams above either. And comparing him to Ere is a slap in the face to Ebi. We all know Ebi had a down senior year, and most of us blame his hand injury for that. Neal isn't in the discussion either. His jr year, he only started 10 games, despite shooting 42% from three, and being 4th in the team in scoring.

Even based on your very selective list I could easily argue that Davis would have started on the '05 team ahead of Jaison Williams, he certainly could have started ahead of Goldbold in '06. So, IMO it is unquestionable that Davis could have started for two of the best OU teams of the last 15 years.

I have to say that with all of your selectiveness regarding seasons that can be used and statistics cited you really seem to be intellectually dishonest.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

You are quite selective, we have a program that has been to the postseason how many times, and only 8 of them were "good"? Further you said that "good" OU teams finish in the top 3 or 4 of the Big XII, based on the season's you list, I will conclude that you have changed the rules?

Are you conventiently ignoring that I said a top 25 team? I'd settle for top 35 or so (essentially favored in your first round tourney game), but it's hard to distinguish the ratings at YE. I simply looked at Soonerstats.com to see whether we were ranked in the top 25 at YE. The years I listed, we were. Like I said though, any year we met the other criteria, and were given a 1-8 seed probably works as well. Don't think that changes anything. I wouldn't really call a team that gets a 12 seed a "good" team, by OU's standards. That is pretty average.

Why do I need to keep in mind what you think about Cade's ability to defend the 2? Why don't you keep in my he doesn't have to defend the 2. Besides defense isn't all about ability, defense is about willingness.

If he is replacing a player that guarded the 2, then yes, on that team he'd have to guard the 2. Why don't you grasp that? And while I agree that defense has alot to do with technique and "want to", if you don't have the foot speed, ie, the lateral quickness, to guard a guy, you don't. Cade is fine.....actually, Cade is REALLY good at defending players that can't use their quickness to get by him.

As for Ere, I love the guy, grew up with him and I believe without question he is a better player, however at some point you have to look at production, and based on production an argument can be made. Keep in mind Ere was a JUCO transfer so you didn't see his growing pains in his 1st & 2nd seasons. Davis' first two seasons have obviously irrevocably tainted your perception of him.

Compare Ere's jr year to Cade's. Ere was just getting used to D1, and coming to a new team. Cade has been D1 for 3 years, and been in the same program. Ere shoots it better from 2. They are nearly the same from 3 and the FT line. Ere rebounded better on a good rebounding team. Ere scored it better on a team with more scorers. Ere averaged nearly twice as many assists. Now, I'd agree that Cade probably defends better. This is one of those situations where stats don't tell the entire story. Ere was the 3rd best player, offensively at least, on a Final Four team. Cade is currently the 5th best offensive player on a team that has played rather poorly.

I like what Cade does as far as hustle and toughness, but don't you think Kelvin would have had him taking minutes from Detrick, rather than Ere? I certainly do. In the last 11 games, Cade has had nearly as many <5 point games (4) as double digit games (5). And those numbers are sure to decrease even more once Willie is at full strength.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

Even based on your very selective list I could easily argue that Davis would have started on the '05 team ahead of Jaison Williams, he certainly could have started ahead of Goldbold in '06. So, IMO it is unquestionable that Davis could have started for two of the best OU teams of the last 15 years.

It's up for debate. I don't think he starts over Williams b/c he'd have to guard the two. Williams shot the ball as well, %-wise, as Cade has this year. Williams could lock a quick 1/2 guard down though. Williams also didn't start all year, and averaged less minutes then LMac, whom Davis wouldn't have started over. He might have started over Godbold in '06. MIGHT have. I won't argue that.

I think my point still remains. Unless we're going to have VERY good, and in most cases, experienced players at the other 4 spots, a guy like Davis is better coming off the bench. If you could surround him with guys like White, Hollis, Ace, and JB, then yeah, you are probably okay with him starting. I don't see us having that roster this year or next year though.

Oh, and you'll be happy to know that he probably does start next year. With the problems Capel had this year with not having enough experience on the court to start games early in the year, I don't see any way he doesn't have Cade starting, as he'll be the only upper classman that was in the program this year that has a chance to start. Otherwise, you start all under classman and/or kids that are new to the program (JUCO). Cade will start to have the calming, Crocker-like influence, would be my guess.

I have to say that with all of your selectiveness regarding seasons that can be used and statistics cited you really seem to be intellectually dishonest.

Every stat I listed comes from a source. And my selectiveness was all laid out up front. It never changed.

I've said my peace. You disagree, and that is fine.