the whole KU thing depresses me

[WTSooner]

During that same time. How many final 4's did KU go to and how many did Sampson go to?

OU went to one, KU went to two. OU just missed joining KU in the FF again in 2002 b/c they got matched up against Cuse/Melo.

Not sure what that has to do with anything. This is about beating KU, and I laid out what I thought OU needed to do in order to do that.

 

[bgrch1350]

OU went to one, KU went to two. OU just missed joining KU in the FF again in 2002 b/c they got matched up against Cuse/Melo.

Not sure what that has to do with anything. This is about beating KU, and I laid out what I thought OU needed to do in order to do that.

What they need to do is recruit better. Stop bringing in juco players that don't play very much once we get into conference play. You can't have a really good starting 5 like last year and not bring in anyone to contribute right away.
They are finally starting to do that. They have Grandstaff and McGusty and they are working on 2017 really hard.

 

[WTSooner]

What they need to do is recruit better. Stop bringing in juco players that don't play very much once we get into conference play. You can't have a really good starting 5 like last year and not bring in anyone to contribute right away.
They are finally starting to do that. They have Grandstaff and McGusty and they are working on 2017 really hard.

Recruit better by getting rid of the dead weight and guys that need 3-4 years to mature? I agree. That would help the "depth" issue I mentioned.

Recruit better in terms of we "must" land a 5*? I don't think so.

 

[Soonerinkc]

no doubt. they are VERY good. but we were better. we were. yet while THEY improved we didnt. In fact, we backslid while they just made huge leaps.

I don't get "we were better"...they beat us both games, period. They definitely have improved and we have backslid.

 

[bgrch1350]

Recruit better by getting rid of the dead weight and guys that need 3-4 years to mature? I agree. That would help the "depth" issue I mentioned.

Recruit better in terms of we "must" land a 5*? I don't think so.

You need to look at championship teams and see what they have on their rosters. You want to be the champ but you don't want to recruit like champions do. You think you are going to get it done different then how all the championship teams get it done. Duke, L'Ville, Kansas, Kentucky, UConn, Mich St. You want to recruit different then them but you want the same results. Not going to happen.

 

[Big Old Booger]

I disagree that he has to go that route. Buddy is playing as well as any 5* recruit this year, and we still lost.

We need improved post talent, and depth, more than anything else. We match up pretty well with them on the perimeter this year, but inside, they are vastly more talented, athletic, and long. And they are bringing better talent off the bench.

Once Kelvin got decent talent on his roster, he was winning about 50% of his games against KU. He didn't have 5*'s. Just a good, complete roster that was tough and somewhat deep. They "out-toughed" KU.

I like Kelvin as much as any OU fan ever but your emphasis on a random 2-3 year period doesn't tell the whole story. For one, I would say KU wasn't as much of a power under Roy as under Self, they certainly weren't as invincible in the conference season as they are now.

Even if we were able to say "well, Kelvin had as good a program as KU over that period" then why didn't he sustain it? So, it's not really fair to Kelvin or anyone else to keep using that random stat.

 

[WTSooner]

I like Kelvin as much as any OU fan ever but your emphasis on a random 2-3 year period doesn't tell the whole story. For one, I would say KU wasn't as much of a power under Roy as under Self, they certainly weren't as invincible in the conference season as they are now.

Even if we were able to say "well, Kelvin had as good a program as KU over that period" then why didn't he sustain it? So, it's not really fair to Kelvin or anyone else to keep using that random stat.

It was 6 years, not 2-3. Six years was half of Kelvin's tenure at OU. Want to make it 7 years? Fine, Kelvin was 4-5 against KU over those last 7 years. That is relevant. And stop being a tool. This isn't about Kelvin, it's about what OU needs to do to have continued success in the Big 12 and against KU. Period. It's not my fault Kelvin was the coach at OU the last time OU consistently gave KU a run for their money over an extended period of time.

As for Williams vs Self, I don't agree with you there either.

If you want to make the case that they've been pretty even, I'd buy that. Roy was a coach two more years than Bill has been. Roy went to 4 FF's, Bill 2. Bill does have the NC, while Roy has the runner up. Winning percentage is nearly identical (less than 1 win difference on average per year). Both won a crap load of conference titles, though Bill does have a couple more.

Both great coaches who had some really good teams at KU.

 

[WTSooner]

You need to look at championship teams and see what they have on their rosters. You want to be the champ but you don't want to recruit like champions do. You think you are going to get it done different then how all the championship teams get it done. Duke, L'Ville, Kansas, Kentucky, UConn, Mich St. You want to recruit different then them but you want the same results. Not going to happen.

Quit changing the criteria. We're talking about competing with KU, and beating them frequently enough to compete for Big 12 titles.

We aren't Duke, 'Ville, KU, UK, UCONN, or MSU. And we won't be any time soon. We have some steps to take before I'm concerning myself with what OU needs to do to win a NC.

 

[sperry]

Hopefully we can make it to the title game and get revenge. Winning the conference tourney would be a huge deal.

 

[Big Old Booger]

It was 6 years, not 2-3. Six years was half of Kelvin's tenure at OU. Want to make it 7 years? Fine, Kelvin was 4-5 against KU over those last 7 years. That is relevant. And stop being a tool. This isn't about Kelvin, it's about what OU needs to do to have continued success in the Big 12 and against KU. Period. It's not my fault Kelvin was the coach at OU the last time OU consistently gave KU a run for their money over an extended period of time.

As for Williams vs Self, I don't agree with you there either.

If you want to make the case that they've been pretty even, I'd buy that. Roy was a coach two more years than Bill has been. Roy went to 4 FF's, Bill 2. Bill does have the NC, while Roy has the runner up. Winning percentage is nearly identical (less than 1 win difference on average per year). Both won a crap load of conference titles, though Bill does have a couple more.

Both great coaches who had some really good teams at KU.

So, you are only considering his last 7 years but you want to compare Lon's first 5 to that? Really? That's far beyond being a tool, that makes you the tool belt.

As I've said before when you bring up that random stat, Kelvin had the luxury of playing KU once every year from 96 to 2006. Lon, OTOH, has had to play KU twice every year. Had Kelvin's teams had to play KU twice his win record wouldn't be close to 50% for a 7 year period.

Self has 12 conference titles at KU. Roy, in 14 seasons, didn't come near to 12 because OU won in 89, Mizzou won in 90 and 94, ISU won in 2000 and 2001 and Texas won in 99. So, Bill has 4 more, that's 50% more than Roy which is significant.

 

[WTSooner]

Hopefully we can make it to the title game and get revenge. Winning the conference tourney would be a huge deal.

Agreed. It'd be pretty cool for the Big 12 to make a nice showing in the Dance too, especially if that included OU and KU in the Final Four again. Big 12 needs some good pub.

 

[152219]

It was 6 years, not 2-3. Six years was half of Kelvin's tenure at OU. Want to make it 7 years? Fine, Kelvin was 4-5 against KU over those last 7 years. That is relevant. And stop being a tool. This isn't about Kelvin, it's about what OU needs to do to have continued success in the Big 12 and against KU. Period. It's not my fault Kelvin was the coach at OU the last time OU consistently gave KU a run for their money over an extended period of time.

As for Williams vs Self, I don't agree with you there either.

If you want to make the case that they've been pretty even, I'd buy that. Roy was a coach two more years than Bill has been. Roy went to 4 FF's, Bill 2. Bill does have the NC, while Roy has the runner up. Winning percentage is nearly identical (less than 1 win difference on average per year). Both won a crap load of conference titles, though Bill does have a couple more.

Both great coaches who had some really good teams at KU.

Why bring up Sampson when Tubbs had even more success. In a 10 year span ('82-91) his team's went 13-13 versus KU. And from '87-91 the Sooners went 8-5. Tubbs is the gold standard when it comes to OU coaches and success.

 

[Big Old Booger]

Why bring up Sampson when Tubbs had even more success. In a 10 year span ('82-91) his team's went 13-13 versus KU. And from '87-91 the Sooners went 8-5. Tubbs is the gold standard when it comes to OU coaches and success.

I was about to post the same thing earlier because Tubbs made OU an equal to KU if not better over that time period. I will add, OU was about to pass KU as the dominant program in the Big 8 after the 90 season and then Dr. Tom Hill came and a lot of the team had to transfer because they weren't doing enough in the classroom. I totally get that academics is far more important but it seems his rules could have been implemented to help the current players instead of getting them to leave.

 

[sperry]

Agreed. It'd be pretty cool for the Big 12 to make a nice showing in the Dance too, especially if that included OU and KU in the Final Four again. Big 12 needs some good pub.

Big XII definitely needs a good showing. We really crapped the bed last year, with only two sweet 16 teams.

 

[WTSooner]

So, you are only considering his last 7 years but you want to compare Lon's first 5 to that? Really? That's far beyond being a tool, that makes you the tool belt.

As I've said before when you bring up that random stat, Kelvin had the luxury of playing KU once every year from 96 to 2006. Lon, OTOH, has had to play KU twice every year. Had Kelvin's teams had to play KU twice his win record wouldn't be close to 50% for a 7 year period.

Self has 12 conference titles at KU. Roy, in 14 seasons, didn't come near to 12 because OU won in 89, Mizzou won in 90 and 94, ISU won in 2000 and 2001 and Texas won in 99. So, Bill has 4 more, that's 50% more than Roy which is significant.

Don't want to talk about FF appearances, huh? lol

I can only talk about what Lon has done. Maybe it's a different "discussion" down the road. Again, this isn't a Kelvin vs Lon thing. This is an OU vs KU thing. Sorry that you don't see that.

And why wouldn't he have been .500 if they played twice? He lost in Lawrence, won in Norman and in the Big 12 tourneys (KCx2) during those 7 years. So maybe we lose in Lawrence the years we didn't play there, and win in Norman the years we didn't play there. Again, pretty close to .500. Over those 7 years OU was 4-1 against KU outside of Lawrence.

 

[bgrch1350]

Don't want to talk about FF appearances, huh? lol

I can only talk about what Lon has done. Maybe it's a different "discussion" down the road. Again, this isn't a Kelvin vs Lon thing. This is an OU vs KU thing. Sorry that you don't see that.

And why wouldn't he have been .500 if they played twice? He lost in Lawrence, won in Norman and in the Big 12 tourneys (KCx2) during those 7 years. So maybe we lose in Lawrence the years we didn't play there, and win in Norman the years we didn't play there. Again, pretty close to .500. Over those 7 years OU was 4-1 against KU outside of Lawrence.

You're not going to win the big 12 when Kansas has guys on their bench that would be starting for our team. This year they have several.

 

[soonerdanny]

the conference tournament is equally as important as the regular season

No. It's not even close. The latter is far more significant than the former.