Travis Ford

[oSuJeff97]

I was explaining why I don't think Gulley is an impact player and using OU's players as an comparison. You go on and on just because the kid is playing, by default more than anything else that is an impact player.

Well again, I would say it obviously depends what you mean by "impact."

Yes, Gulley is starting because Penn was injured. But again, Ford doesn't HAVE to start him. He could easily have Page run the point and start both Moses and Pilgrim.

And I am showing I disagree with that belief and I have different standards for players being considered impact players as freshman.

Fair enough... that's what I've been saying all along.

My only point is that freshmen like TMG and/or Blake Griffin are exceedingly rare.

Most of the time, you are having an impact as a true freshman if you are getting a lot of minutes and helping the team win... as opposed to riding the pine, like some of OSU's other freshmen.

 

[blankenship4]

I'd like to see that measured as well...oh, and since when did basketball become a high-jumping contest? Evidently there are some pretty glaring flaws in their games to only be rated as three stars by rivals if they are great outside shooters and can each out jump the entire NBA combine.

Im not sure why rivals has them ranked so low but they're both 4* on scout

 

[earlpearl]

To date Capel has out recruited Ford. To date Ford has out X and Oed Capel. Ford gets more out of his players period. I do have a little concern about Ford's recruiting but he has only been here for one true class and he brought in some solid players. If he keeps getting the most out of his players and Capel's classes continue to be undisiciplined the recruiting trend will turn in Ford's favor.

The next 2-3 years will tell us a lot about Ford as a complete coach. The same can be said for Capel. It should be fun to watch.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

To date Capel has out recruited Ford. To date Ford has out X and Oed Capel. Ford gets more out of his players period. I do have a little concern about Ford's recruiting but he has only been here for one true class and he brought in some solid players. If he keeps getting the most out of his players and Capel's classes continue to be undisiciplined the recruiting trend will turn in Ford's favor.

The next 2-3 years will tell us a lot about Ford as a complete coach. The same can be said for Capel. It should be fun to watch.

Please explain?

Not to be a jerk about it, but Ford had a team last season with three 5* players [that fit his system pefectly] and missed a Sweet Sixteen; this season he has arguably the best player in the conference and oSu is a bubble team with two 5* players [both of whom are upperclassmen]. If anything, Ford has underachieved with the talent he has had at his disposal to this point.

I agree with everything else you said in your post, but to imply that Ford has outcoached Capel is fair this season, but certainly not over the course of the last two seasons. Ford hasn't done THAT good of a job. Keep in mind, you demolished OU at home without their best two players setting foot on the court....so did NU. A week before you lost a game at home to a UT team that was in the process of falling apart.

 

[luckyc1423]

This is going to sound silly, but they should have half stars also....Both Cam Clark and Pledger are 4 stars and there is no way pledge is as good as came

And TJ is a 3 star while pledge is 4 and by the video I have seen I would say TJ is also better

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=8&toinid=369&sspid=-1&yr=2010

 

[oSuJeff97]

Not to be a jerk about it, but Ford had a team last season with three 5* players [that fit his system pefectly] and missed a Sweet Sixteen; this season he has arguably the best player in the conference and oSu is a bubble team with two 5* players [both of whom are upperclassmen]. If anything, Ford has underachieved with the talent he has had at his disposal to this point.

So it is your contention that recruiting stars are a 100% accurate and definitive measure of basketball talent?

Surely you can see the difference in talent and ability between, say Blake Griffin and Byron Eaton.

Both were 5-star players, but both had remarkably different impacts on their respective teams.

I don't care how many recruiting stars that Eaton and Harris had. They and the rest of the team were used to being part of mediocre basketball at OSU. Ford deserves credit for changing that.

OSU obviously had some players with ability last year, but it's funny that they all improved significantly when he arrived. Coincidence I guess.

Oh - and your notion that OSU has underachived this year because we have "the best player in the conference" on the team is laughable. Once upon a time, Chauncy Billiups was the best player in the conference -- I can't believe Colorado didn't win the league that year, LOL. You can't win basketball games 1 vs. 5 or even 2 vs. 5. You need a complete team.

OSU has no true point guard, is vastly undersized and unathletic at the 2 and (still) has an undersized and shallow front court.

Yet we are a handful of wins away from very likely making the NCAA tournament. Yeah... big underachiever this year, that Coach Ford.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

Oh - and your notion that OSU has underachived this year because we have "the best player in the conference" on the team is laughable. Once upon a time, Chauncy Billiups was the best player in the conference -- I can't believe Colorado didn't win the league that year, LOL. You can't win basketball games 1 vs. 5 or even 2 vs. 5. You need a complete team.

All you had to do was point to OU last year. Best player in the country, by far, really, and we didn't win the conference or make the Final Four.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

So it is your contention that recruiting stars are a 100% accurate and definitive measure of basketball talent?

Surely you can see the difference in talent and ability between, say Blake Griffin and Byron Eaton.

Both were 5-star players, but both had remarkably different impacts on their respective teams.

I don't care how many recruiting stars that Eaton and Harris had. They and the rest of the team were used to being part of mediocre basketball at OSU. Ford deserves credit for changing that.

OSU obviously had some players with ability last year, but it's funny that they all improved significantly when he arrived. Coincidence I guess.

Oh - and your notion that OSU has underachived this year because we have "the best player in the conference" on the team is laughable. Once upon a time, Chauncy Billiups was the best player in the conference -- I can't believe Colorado didn't win the league that year, LOL. You can't win basketball games 1 vs. 5 or even 2 vs. 5. You need a complete team.

OSU has no true point guard, is vastly undersized and unathletic at the 2 and (still) has an undersized and shallow front court.

Yet we are a handful of wins away from very likely making the NCAA tournament. Yeah... big underachiever this year, that Coach Ford.

So I guess that takes a little shine off the Capel can't win without Blake argument, right? After all, he was just one player and one player can't do it all. You want to say that Bllups is less of an impact player than Blake Griffin, because I can point to several reasons why that is wrong. Based on what you say here, Capel deserves credit for putting a complete team around Blake and coaching them up. Right? Hope that puts an end to the "Capel hasn't won without Blake" argument that you have thrown out on this board on numerous occassions.

The second statement that you make is that Ford has glaring weaknesses surrounding his two five star players; however, that goes against what the OP stated regarding Ford's recruiting. Now, if you want to say that Ford having three 5* players in his first year and making the round of 32 and possibly squeaking in to the tournament this season with two 5* players is an excellent job coaching, then I expect that you'd say that Capel did a good job with making it to the same point in his second season with one 5 star player and the Elite Eight with two 5 star players, right? If so, that goes against the theory that Ford has "outcoached" Capel.

Finally, I'll conced that Capel has underachieved with the talent he had this season, but the prior two seasons he did about what he should have with the talent he had at his disposal. I'll also concede that the book on this season is not over yet, if Ford makes it to the Sweet Sixteen I'll give it up to him and call it even, otherwise, I'd have to give the advantage to Capel, particularly if I take your arguments into account.

 

[152219]

All you had to do was point to OU last year. Best player in the country, by far, really, and we didn't win the conference or make the Final Four.

Of course, said player missed the majority of one game and one complete game against two of the top teams in the conference. If he plays against KU and OU wins, OU wins the conference.

 

[152219]

And Chauncey Billups led that CU team to the tournament and they won a game (that was the last time CU made it to the 2nd round of the NCAA tourney)

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Of course, said player missed the majority of one game and one complete game against two of the top teams in the conference. If he plays against KU and OU wins, OU wins the conference.

I'd say not to even go down that road...Jeff took a position that completely deflates the whole "Capel can't win without Blake" argument that oSu fans and a few OU fans have thrown out here on a consistent basis. It sort of makes me laugh a little bit.

 

[152219]

I'd say not to even go down that road...Jeff took a position that completely deflates the whole "Capel can't win without Blake" argument that oSu fans and a few OU fans have thrown out here on a consistent basis. It sort of makes me laugh a little bit.

Well, OU's offense revolved around Blake (and rightfully so, which coach wouldn't have it that way) and him being out definitely hurt. I just like the revisionist history that Capel couldn't win the conference WITH BG without anyone mentioning OU lost two games without him. And it wasn't like they lost to Nebraska and Colorado those 2 games.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Well, OU's offense revolved around Blake (and rightfully so, which coach wouldn't have it that way) and him being out definitely hurt. I just like the revisionist history that Capel couldn't win the conference WITH BG without anyone mentioning OU lost two games without him. And it wasn't like they lost to Nebraska and Colorado those 2 games.

I think it is just more evidence that there are some who don't want to give Capel any credit and they'll do or say anything to keep that argument on point. Any OU fan knows that Blake missed two games against two solid teams and that is probably why we didn't win the conference. Any fan of college basketball knows that UNC was the best team in college basketball last season [by a longshot] and it is likely that the only reason we didn't make it to the final four was because we had to play them in the Elite Eight.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

I think it is just more evidence that there are some who don't want to give Capel any credit and they'll do or say anything to keep that argument on point. Any OU fan knows that Blake missed two games against two solid teams and that is probably why we didn't win the conference. Any fan of college basketball knows that UNC was the best team in college basketball last season [by a longshot] and it is likely that the only reason we didn't make it to the final four was because we had to play them in the Elite Eight.

I just want consistency.

You can't claim OU would have won the Big 12 IF Blake were healthy, and that OU would have went on to the Final Four IF we hadn't been paired up against North Carolina on one hand.....

Then on the other, quote Kelvin's NCAA woe's, not taking into account things like JR Raymond getting booted shortly after midseason, all the player losses during their NIT year, the injury of Q White and Hollis against Indiana, Hollis being injured against Indiana State, and Najera being injured against MSU.

Consistency. Either talk about what happened and forget the what if's, or talk about what was likely. Just do it consistently.

 

[HoHum]

So I guess that takes a little shine off the Capel can't win without Blake argument, right? After all, he was just one player and one player can't do it all. You want to say that Bllups is less of an impact player than Blake Griffin, because I can point to several reasons why that is wrong. Based on what you say here, Capel deserves credit for putting a complete team around Blake and coaching them up. Right? Hope that puts an end to the "Capel hasn't won without Blake" argument that you have thrown out on this board on numerous occassions.

The second statement that you make is that Ford has glaring weaknesses surrounding his two five star players; however, that goes against what the OP stated regarding Ford's recruiting. Now, if you want to say that Ford having three 5* players in his first year and making the round of 32 and possibly squeaking in to the tournament this season with two 5* players is an excellent job coaching, then I expect that you'd say that Capel did a good job with making it to the same point in his second season with one 5 star player and the Elite Eight with two 5 star players, right? If so, that goes against the theory that Ford has "outcoached" Capel.

Finally, I'll conced that Capel has underachieved with the talent he had this season, but the prior two seasons he did about what he should have with the talent he had at his disposal. I'll also concede that the book on this season is not over yet, if Ford makes it to the Sweet Sixteen I'll give it up to him and call it even, otherwise, I'd have to give the advantage to Capel, particularly if I take your arguments into account.

First off, there is a HUGE difference when one of the 5 stars OSU has is a former 6'4" shooting guard that broke his leg as a freshman and has turned into an undersized power forward. Muonelo is nowhere a 5 star talent at this point.

Also, the difference between Anderson, arguably the best wing in the country and Griffin, who was undoubtedly the best player in America is huge.

For one, the difference between Anderson and the next best at his position (assuming you think Anderson is the best at his position in the country) is minuscule. College basketball is a guard oriented game. A lot of teams have talented guards that can come close to balancing any advantage that OSU has with Anderson.

While Griffin was far and away the best player in the country, regardless of position. To add to that he played a position that a lot of teams start solid but unspectacular players.

You can put Griffin on the worst team in the nation, and they're in the tournament. You put Anderson on the worst team in the nation and they're likely still a pretty bad team.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

I just want consistency.

You can't claim OU would have won the Big 12 IF Blake were healthy, and that OU would have went on to the Final Four IF we hadn't been paired up against North Carolina on one hand.....

Then on the other, quote Kelvin's NCAA woe's, not taking into account things like JR Raymond getting booted shortly after midseason, all the player losses during their NIT year, the injury of Q White and Hollis against Indiana, Hollis being injured against Indiana State, and Najera being injured against MSU.

Consistency. Either talk about what happened and forget the what if's, or talk about what was likely. Just do it consistently.

See here is the thing, Kelvin was/is my absolute all-time favorite coach at OU because he was the "Human Middle Finger" to the attempts by oSu fans and a willing media to paint OU basketball as some type of purgatory while oSu was being pushed to an inflated status both at the then present time and historically. Dude carried our program through a pretty pivitol period and I'll be forever grateful for that.

Rest assured, you won't see any posts from me "ripping" Kelvin just to rip him...that said, I'll consistently point out that Capel's record hasn't been that bad in comparison to Kelvin. Truth be told, I think the ONLY things that you and I disagree about are how Capel compares to Kelvin at this point in their respective tenures and how much leash Capel should have going forward.

I'll ask you point blank, if you were the AD of The University of Oklahoma, would you give Jeff another year? And I'll also tell you point blank right now that if next year plays out anything like this season (barring massive injuries, player defections or something else unforseen), I'll be right on board with you. But at this point, I don't see the systemic failure that you see, and I can't attribute his success soley to Blake Griffin.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

First off, there is a HUGE difference when one of the 5 stars OSU has is a former 6'4" shooting guard that broke his leg as a freshman and has turned into an undersized power forward. Muonelo is nowhere a 5 star talent at this point.

Also, the difference between Anderson, arguably the best wing in the country and Griffin, who was undoubtedly the best player in America is huge.

For one, the difference between Anderson and the next best at his position (assuming you think Anderson is the best at his position in the country) is minuscule. College basketball is a guard oriented game. A lot of teams have talented guards that can come close to balancing any advantage that OSU has with Anderson.

While Griffin was far and away the best player in the country, regardless of position. To add to that he played a position that a lot of teams start solid but unspectacular players.

You can put Griffin on the worst team in the nation, and they're in the tournament. You put Anderson on the worst team in the nation and they're likely still a pretty bad team.

Whatever makes you feel better about Ford I guess; but it is amazing about how quickly people have backed off on the skill level of the oSu players and the recruiting ability of Ford in this thread. Plus, as an added benefit, oSuJeff has completely reversed on his one player makes Jeff Capel look good argument. This has been an interesting thread, we could use more of them around here. Good job OP.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

Truth be told, I think the ONLY things that you and I disagree about are how Capel compares to Kelvin at this point in their respective tenures and how much leash Capel should have going forward.

My biggest issue is that comparing "the first 4 years each spent at OU" doesn't tell me anything. They were left different players. Came to OU when they were in different leagues. The landscape of basketball in general has changed. OU basketball is more important now then it was then. We have the practice facility now. I think there is a bit more money being pumped into the program now. I personally had different expectations when OU hired Kelvin vs when we hired Jeff. I think there was a different perception of the program when both coaches started. Both had different perceived strengths/weaknesses.

Honestly, I hate that comparison, and it doesn't tell me a single thing.

I'll ask you point blank, if you were the AD of The University of Oklahoma, would you give Jeff another year? And I'll also tell you point blank right now that if next year plays out anything like this season (barring massive injuries, player defections or something else unforseen), I'll be right on board with you. But at this point, I don't see the systemic failure that you see, and I can't attribute his success soley to Blake Griffin.

You say that as if you expect my answer to be that I want him fired?

I don't. Not b/c I'm positive that he'll turn it around (I'm 50/50 on that one), but b/c I just don't think the timing is right. He probably "deserves" another year, and I just think the timing works out that he just about has to get another year. My biggest fear is that we'll be sitting here next year saying that he deserves even one MORE year. Regardless of what happens next year, I don't think that decision, to let Capel go if he decides to, will be an easy one. I just don't want to wait so long that we really are in a rebuilding phase of the program. The landscape of the Big 12 is so that rebuilding won't be easy.

I just want some consistency. Consistency in making the tournament. Consistency in putting a competitive team on the floor that plays smart, and gives us a chance to win most games.

And for the record, regardless of whether it happens at OU or another school, I think Capel is going to be a pretty decent coach in time. I just don't know whether "in time" means starting next year, or starting 3-5 years from now. I guess that is the million dollar question.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

You say that as if you expect my answer to be that I want him fired?

Nope, in fact I was betting that you wouldn't want him fired becuase no sane person would advocate that he should be this year. Since we both can agree that he deserves another year, then I see no reason to argue/debate any of the other points becuase they are opinions that people could easily disagree upon. I like Capel's tournament success more than Kelvin's and you liked Kelvin's consitency...that said, it used to be that having a winning record in the B8 was pretty much a guarantee that you went dancing, now a winning record in the B12 gurantees you nothing. Just something that bugs me.