Well, the team obviously has talent issues

[StatGeek]

It isn't the things that a player CAN do that defines them as a mid-major talent. It is the things that they can not do.

When you say that some current player is just as good as some player that contributed to a winning effort, well, you are just making that up.

I know. You went out on a limb. You commited. You declared victory 6wks. into a soft non-conference schedule. And since you have no evidence or results to support your position, you feel the need to discredit the people and opinions that don't fit with your story line.

So far you have blamed losing Newell, bench strength, Grooms, Osby, Cam, and Neal for the recent team failures. Just for the fun of it, quit bouncing around and just assume for the fun of it that Pledger is the weak link.

From that perspective, the picture will clear up for you. It will all make sense. When well defended, he has little impact on the offensive end. He is a weak defender and he can not handle the ball. OU basically has to try to beat decent teams playing 4 on 5. That is a tough chore. And I don't hold it against the other 4 because they can not do it. As obvious as that may be, I know you will never make that assumption.

And I'm not picking on the teams best players. And even though Fitz is much better at his job than Pledger is at his, Grooms and Osby are the best players. And I like them. I like Carl,Barry, and Casey alot too. But, they are not so good.

Almost 100% pure ignorance.

 

[garyeb2]

Steven Pledger through 14 games

_Leads the team in scoring with a 17.8 ppg average
_3rd in rebounds with a 4.0 rpg average
_Leads the team in steals with 16
_Leads the team in field goal percentage with a .517% average
_Leads in three point shooting with a .468% average
_Leads the team in free throw precentage with a .87% average.

The weak link? Nope. Not by a long shot.

You know what else he leads the team in. I started doing this last season just for fun. So many of the games were so non-competitive, I had to do something to stay interested to the end.

I started counting fouls that team mates got trying to pick up the opponent that just got by Pledger and Blair. They were both in double digits. Blair has improved his defense enough that I have quit counting his.

The games have been so much more competitive that I only count Pledger's till he gets to 3. It is hard to keep up with the flow of the game when staying on top of that stat. Anyway, Pledger gets to 3 virtually every game by 10/11 minutes in.

My arguement isn't what Pledger has done against Eastern Popcorn State. And you know that. What are Pledger's stats against top 40 or tourney caliber teams? That is when he becomes a liability. And you know that too.

Pledger is a pretty good catch and shoot guard. If no one is guarding him, he is just as apt to make it as not. His glossy early stats won't hold up thru the conference season. And you know that too. If you want to build a case using stats. At least use relavent ones.

 

[AdaSooner]

You know what else he leads the team in. I started doing this last season just for fun. So many of the games were so non-competitive, I had to do something to stay interested to the end.

I started counting fouls that team mates got trying to pick up the opponent that just got by Pledger and Blair. They were both in double digits. Blair has improved his defense enough that I have quit counting his.

The games have been so much more competitive that I only count Pledger's till he gets to 3. It is hard to keep up with the flow of the game when staying on top of that stat. Anyway, Pledger gets to 3 virtually every game by 10/11 minutes in.

My arguement isn't what Pledger has done against Eastern Popcorn State. And you know that. What are Pledger's stats against top 40 or tourney caliber teams? That is when he becomes a liability. And you know that too.

Pledger is a pretty good catch and shoot guard. If no one is guarding him, he is just as apt to make it as not. His glossy early stats won't hold up thru the conference season. And you know that too. If you want to build a case using stats. At least use relavent ones.

It's not worth the effort. Nothing I say is going to change how you feel about the kid. But as long as Steven is a member of the team, I will continue to defend him and praise him when he plays well. Why? Because it's the right thing to do.

 

[seniorsooner]

I knew there was a reason I put Gary on ignore a long time ago. Thanks for the reminder, guys.

 

[JBaker]

Is there anybody on this board that knows less about basketball than Gary?

 

[Soonerman]

Absolutely hilarious how a couple of losses brings out the negative nancies. Talk about overreacting.

 

[garyeb2]

It's not worth the effort. Nothing I say is going to change how you feel about the kid. But as long as Steven is a member of the team, I will continue to defend him and praise him when he plays well. Why? Because it's the right thing to do.

No, you won't be able to convince me. Pledger, on the other hand could. All he has to do is start showing up against the decent teams on the schedule. I know, it is much harder to be a contributer when well defended. And my response to that is,so what. Every player on every winning team gets the job done even when it is hard. What is wrong with that standard?

You have started several praise Pledger threads. And I have made an effort to stay out of those and not try to derail the glory train. My issue is with the poster's that want to bestow sainthood on Pledger and continue to dismiss and marginalise the others. Grooms and Osby are a consensus talent upgrade. Without those two, all you have is last years team. And that was a mess.

Trying to build the case that we have one great player and the supporting cast is dragging the team down, is just plain and simple, a faulty premise. I will continue to challenge that premise and defend the supporting cast. Because, I believe that is the right thing to do.

 

[WTSooner]

You have started several praise Pledger threads. And I have made an effort to stay out of those and not try to derail the glory train. My issue is with the poster's that want to bestow sainthood on Pledger and continue to dismiss and marginalise the others. Grooms and Osby are a consensus talent upgrade. Without those two, all you have is last years team. And that was a mess.

Trying to build the case that we have one great player and the supporting cast is dragging the team down, is just plain and simple, a faulty premise. I will continue to challenge that premise and defend the supporting cast. Because, I believe that is the right thing to do.

Honest question.....

Why is it easier for you to believe that Pledger is dragging the team down, and not pulling his weight, then it is to look at who he is starting next to, and realizing that other teams are defending Pledger with their best players, doubling him at times, and not helping off of him?

If you were coaching against OU, how would you defend our guards? I tell you what I would do.....I'd stick my best man on Pledger, and tell him not to leave him at any time. No help off of Pledger. I'd tell whoever is guarding Grooms to give him space, and force jump shots, b/c a) he won't take them, and b) when he does take them, he is going to make such a low percentage, that we want him taking them. And with the way Cam has played much of the year, I'd play him the same way. Don't let him catch and shoot, but force him to shoot jumpers, or put the ball on the floor in traffic. Grooms and Cam have both been below average on offense for nearly the entire season, despite drawing defenses that are giving them open looks. Yet you fault Pledger. That defies logic, IMO.

The above is not my opinion either. That IS how OU is being defended, and it's one of the biggest reasons we're struggling on offense. Tough to run screens and get open looks when teams don't defend your pg. Tough for our best scorer to get open looks when he is starting next to two guys that are shooting the ball so terribly. That is fact. Without better play at the 1 and 3 spots, it doesn't much matter how good Pledger is, he is going to struggle. The only players that wouldn't struggle in that situation are true superstars. Nobody is calling Pledger that.

 

[campbest]

I would argue, and I think you might agree, that if you are EXPECTING an OU basketball team to lose by 20 or more points, you are basically admitting that OU has talent issues, are you not? If you had talent, you wouldnt lose to anyone by 20+ points, and you certainly wouldnt expect that to happen.

Did KU's last Sweet Sixteen team have talent issues?

Because they lost to Texas Tech by 20.

 

[campbest]

Trying to build the case that we have one great player and the supporting cast is dragging the team down, is just plain and simple, a faulty premise. I will continue to challenge that premise and defend the supporting cast. Because, I believe that is the right thing to do.

:ez-laugh:

Take the blinders off.

 

[thebigabd]

Did KU's last Sweet Sixteen team have talent issues?

Because they lost to Texas Tech by 20.

I bet OU loses by double digits a lot this year.

 

[garyeb2]

Honest question.....

Why is it easier for you to believe that Pledger is dragging the team down, and not pulling his weight, then it is to look at who he is starting next to, and realizing that other teams are defending Pledger with their best players, doubling him at times, and not helping off of him?

If you were coaching against OU, how would you defend our guards? I tell you what I would do.....I'd stick my best man on Pledger, and tell him not to leave him at any time. No help off of Pledger. I'd tell whoever is guarding Grooms to give him space, and force jump shots, b/c a) he won't take them, and b) when he does take them, he is going to make such a low percentage, that we want him taking them. And with the way Cam has played much of the year, I'd play him the same way. Don't let him catch and shoot, but force him to shoot jumpers, or put the ball on the floor in traffic. Grooms and Cam have both been below average on offense for nearly the entire season, despite drawing defenses that are giving them open looks. Yet you fault Pledger. That defies logic, IMO.

The above is not my opinion either. That IS how OU is being defended, and it's one of the biggest reasons we're struggling on offense. Tough to run screens and get open looks when teams don't defend your pg. Tough for our best scorer to get open looks when he is starting next to two guys that are shooting the ball so terribly. That is fact. Without better play at the 1 and 3 spots, it doesn't much matter how good Pledger is, he is going to struggle. The only players that wouldn't struggle in that situation are true superstars. Nobody is calling Pledger that.

Honest answer. Firstly, and above everything else. We mostly disagree because I think that you believe that average ppg is a definative measure of a players worth or value to a team. I think that is just one metric. No more or less important than defense or transition or the ability to beat defenders off the dribble, or create shots or rebound.

I think Pledger is a fine scoring option. I also think that his shortcomings in other areas devalues him. When we have a point guard that averages 4.5 ppg insted of 10, that devalues him. But, he does virtually every other thing that one needs a point guard to do pretty well. I think his NET contribution is quite positive. Higher than Pledger's. You disagree. It is hard to prove either way. Same with Osby. He is and undersized #4 stuck down in the paint coming off a year layoff. And he is still averaging nearly a double double. That is pretty good. Pledger could average 30 a game and we still couldn't beat a good team without Osby doing his job well.

Pledger is easily our best scoring option. And opposing coaches will attempt to take that away from us. When they get that done, it is bad news. But, WT, Pledger isn't being picked on. That is what every coach tries to do with every opponents best scoring option. It seems that top 40 types teams generally have the kind of players that can get him. The vast majority of teams on our schedule don't have that kind of player and Pledger lights them up. He lights them up with the same low scoring Grooms standing right there beside him.

When I say OU needs better players. That would translate into having a best scoring option that could get his against all but say a top 20 team type of talent. As indicated by recent performance and last years record, all of the players on the roster have flaws that can be exploited by opposing coaches. None of the players are as bad as the things they do poorly. And none of them are as good as the things they do well. They all have a NET worth. From that perspective, it is hard for me to assign a value to Pledger that is as high or any higher than Grooms,Osby, or Fitz for that matter. Cam, well that is another story.

And you are right. OU isn't that far off. They need another ball handler pretty bad. But, most importantly, they need another scoring option. And it doesn't really need to be the point guard. Pledger as the lone threat just exposes us to the liability of getting beat by more teams.

Amath is probably the solution next season. That along with the freshman. I'm not buying into the one and done to the NBA hype. But, the kid can score. Pledger will have an easier time of it when he is a scoring option insted of the scoring option. And the team will be better for it.

 

[Tony]

 

[campbest]

I bet OU loses by double digits a lot this year.

Don't disagree, just refuting your statement that teams with talent issues won't lose by 20+ points. That was an example off the top of my head, could probably find 50 more over the last five years.

 

[Max Power]

I bet OU loses by double digits a lot this year.

that didnt answer the question

 

[thebigabd]

Don't disagree, just refuting your statement that teams with talent issues won't lose by 20+ points. That was an example off the top of my head, could probably find 50 more over the last five years.

Sure, good teams with talent can get blown out. But good teams with legit talent dont get down by 42 points.

 

[AdaSooner]

No, you won't be able to convince me. Pledger, on the other hand could. All he has to do is start showing up against the decent teams on the schedule. I know, it is much harder to be a contributer when well defended. And my response to that is,so what. Every player on every winning team gets the job done even when it is hard. What is wrong with that standard?

You have started several praise Pledger threads. And I have made an effort to stay out of those and not try to derail the glory train. My issue is with the poster's that want to bestow sainthood on Pledger and continue to dismiss and marginalise the others. Grooms and Osby are a consensus talent upgrade. Without those two, all you have is last years team. And that was a mess.

Trying to build the case that we have one great player and the supporting cast is dragging the team down, is just plain and simple, a faulty premise. I will continue to challenge that premise and defend the supporting cast. Because, I believe that is the right thing to do.

I, for one, have never said or even implied that Pledger is a great player. IMHO, no one on this team fits that description. This is a team made up of role players, which is exactly why a serious upgrade in talent is necessary to get us back to competing for conference championships, instead of struggling to win enough games to be considered for a NIT birth. While some here will not agree with what I said, that is the cold, hard truth of where we are in the rebuilding stage.

Keep in mind that every team has role players, so I'm not suggesting that we are completely void of talent. What I am saying is that there are NO STARS or DIFFERENCE MAKERS on this team. Put another way, no one on this team is a sure bet to play in the NBA. Everyone keeps saying that Cam has that potential, but I'm still waiting for him to prove it.

Despite Pledger's failings on defense (yes, I'm well aware that he does not have great foot speed), he still brings a lot to the floor that no one else on the current roster can even come close to providing on the offensive end. Newell is gone. It won't do any good to fret over that now.

IMO, that leaves Pledger as our best option at the two. Would you rather see Neal or Blair play that position? I think Tyler will be a good player in time. But he's not ready for the big stage right now, and his defense is one of the main reasons he's not seeing more playing time. I know how you feel about Blair, so we won't even go there.

Bottom line, what other choice do we have but to support the hand Kruger was dealt in his first season? I can think of other players on this team who deserve to be singled out more than Steven Pledger. He has come a long way in his development since last season. Why not give him credit for that and try not to be so critical?

 

[garyeb2]

I, for one, have never said or even implied that Pledger is a great player. IMHO, no one on this team fits that description. This is a team made up of role players, which is exactly why a serious upgrade in talent is necessary to get us back to competing for conference championships, instead of struggling to win enough games to be considered for a NIT birth. While some here will not agree with what I said, that is the cold, hard truth of where we are in the rebuilding stage.

Keep in mind that every team has role players, so I'm not suggesting that we are completely void of talent. What I am saying is that there are NO STARS or DIFFERENCE MAKERS on this team. Put another way, no one on this team is a sure bet to play in the NBA. Everyone keeps saying that Cam has that potential, but I'm still waiting for him to prove it.

Despite Pledger's failings on defense (yes, I'm well aware that he does not have great foot speed), he still brings a lot to the floor that no one else on the current roster can even come close to providing on the offensive end. Newell is gone. It won't do any good to fret over that now.

IMO, that leaves Pledger as our best option at the two. Would you rather see Neal or Blair play that position? I think Tyler will be a good player in time. But he's not ready for the big stage right now, and his defense is one of the main reasons he's not seeing more playing time. I know how you feel about Blair, so we won't even go there.

Bottom line, what other choice do we have but to support the hand Kruger was dealt in his first season? I can think of other players on this team who deserve to be singled out more than Steven Pledger. He has come a long way in his development since last season. Why not give him credit for that and try not to be so critical?

If that is what you think, what argueing about? We are in about 90% agreement.

 

[garyeb2]

Oh, and an after thought. About that 10%. Me, I'm an OU Basketball fan. It was my youngest daughter that was the cheerleader at OU. Her job was to support the team and players come hell or high water. I tend to be alittle critical from time to time in spots.

 

[campbest]

Oh, and an after thought. About that 10%. Me, I'm an OU Basketball fan. It was my youngest daughter that was the cheerleader at OU. Her job was to support the team and players come hell or high water. I tend to be alittle critical from time to time in spots.

Need pics.