When Does It Stop?????

[SoonerSpock]

giraffespot: It's hard for me to imagine that two people of Native American origins can have such totally opposite life experiences in regard to the way we view our nation and our fellow citizens.

You say your family has been the victim of racial discrimination, and I cannot and will not dispute your claim. But I also refuse to abandon my strongly held belief that in today's America, the vast majority of our citizens – whether they be white, black, red or yellow – do not judge their fellow Americans based on the color of their skin.

I too am a Native American and have seen racial discrimination all my life. But I too know life is not always fair but we should make every effort to afford equality to all. That being said we cannot create utopia for any/every segment of society.

We are all going to be continually subjected to predjudices of others and in a free country they are entitled to have their predjudices and to expound on them. While attempting to change their predjudices we have to learn to understand they are going to continue to exist in a free society.

We must not forget the only true utopia is death.

 

[giraffespots]

Tango. Actually, no, I am not offended by Boomer and Sooner. The whole land run was borne out of oppression of Native Americans and their lands, but the actual terms are not stereotypical, denigrating or mocking towards Natives. (Now, if you wanna know about how I feel about the FSU Seminole chant...)

I don't really feel like we should abandon it; however, the students who are pushing for this have a point. We should not just dismiss them, we should open discussions where we can learn something and they can learn something. Its the dismissive attitude of most people that irks me.

Scrybe. Who are you comparing me to? My life experiences in regards to racial discrimination have not been as dire as you seem to think. (my previous post were my experiences, and there are many more, however, I have far MORE great life experiences. I am not an unhappy person, I don't feel like my childhood was bad. I'm not really mad at anyone)

Remember, I LOOK white. Only Natives recognize me as Indian by sight. My experiences have been from the viewpoint of looking one way and identifying another. I can see both sides, I see discrimination, but I also see some minority members who think they are "owed" something. I do not feel that anyone "owes" me anything. When I am discriminated against, or when I hear a prejudiced remark, I call it out and I refuse to let it slide. I don't get mad, I just want to educate.

You don't have to abandon your belief and you shouldn't. It is my opinion that most of Americans do NOT want to be racist. Most people do NOT judge on the color of a person's skin. That said, I am also aware that there ARE those who DO...and there are those who don't realize what they just said was offensive.

My issue is not with those who discriminate. My issue is with those who do NOT discriminate, yet pretend that their brother/sister is being treated the same way they are. It is just not always the case. And when a discriminated person calls out, those who do NOT usually discriminate, don't say anything, they don't stand up with the discriminated person, and often tries to justify the discrimination because they just cannot bear the fact that racism is still alive.

Again, I do believe in the overall goodness of people and of Americans. I am proud to be American, I am also proud to be NATIVE American.

SoonerSpock. I completely agree with all you said. I don't believe in utopia on earth. This is why its an education in progress. I have been trying to educate folks all my life (and I grew up in OK).

Yesterday, I was just mad. And all those folks with an opinion before I jumped in have somehow vanished. So, sorry, didn't really mean to clear the room.

 

[giraffespots]

oh yeah, I'm not in therapy nor do I drink.

 

[scrybe]

Tango. Actually, no, I am not offended by Boomer and Sooner. The whole land run was borne out of oppression of Native Americans and their lands, but the actual terms are not stereotypical, denigrating or mocking towards Natives. (Now, if you wanna know about how I feel about the FSU Seminole chant...)

I don't really feel like we should abandon it; however, the students who are pushing for this have a point. We should not just dismiss them, we should open discussions where we can learn something and they can learn something. Its the dismissive attitude of most people that irks me.

Scrybe. Who are you comparing me to? My life experiences in regards to racial discrimination have not been as dire as you seem to think. (my previous post were my experiences, and there are many more, however, I have far MORE great life experiences. I am not an unhappy person, I don't feel like my childhood was bad. I'm not really mad at anyone)

Remember, I LOOK white. Only Natives recognize me as Indian by sight. My experiences have been from the viewpoint of looking one way and identifying another. I can see both sides, I see discrimination, but I also see some minority members who think they are "owed" something. I do not feel that anyone "owes" me anything. When I am discriminated against, or when I hear a prejudiced remark, I call it out and I refuse to let it slide. I don't get mad, I just want to educate.

You don't have to abandon your belief and you shouldn't. It is my opinion that most of Americans do NOT want to be racist. Most people do NOT judge on the color of a person's skin. That said, I am also aware that there ARE those who DO...and there are those who don't realize what they just said was offensive.

My issue is not with those who discriminate. My issue is with those who do NOT discriminate, yet pretend that their brother/sister is being treated the same way they are. It is just not always the case. And when a discriminated person calls out, those who do NOT usually discriminate, don't say anything, they don't stand up with the discriminated person, and often tries to justify the discrimination because they just cannot bear the fact that racism is still alive.

Again, I do believe in the overall goodness of people and of Americans. I am proud to be American, I am also proud to be NATIVE American.

SoonerSpock. I completely agree with all you said. I don't believe in utopia on earth. This is why its an education in progress. I have been trying to educate folks all my life (and I grew up in OK).

Yesterday, I was just mad. And all those folks with an opinion before I jumped in have somehow vanished. So, sorry, didn't really mean to clear the room.

Very good post, spot. And that makes two of us who are proud Americans. And while I don't actually bill myself as Native American (I believe doing so could be offensive to people with a much higher degree of Indian blood), I am also proud of my Native American ancestors.

And while I do recognize that racism and discrimination are still alive in our nation today, my personal observations lead me to believe that those attitudes exist among a very small minority of Americans.

 

[SoonerinNC]

Since I am caucausian it is probably futile for me to weigh in but I will anyway.

As a graduate of OU I love the university and generally am very proud of it. I have never been enthralled with the Sooner nickname since the sooners were law breakers. But it is a non issue with me. It wouldn't break my heart for the name to be changed as long as it isn't the Cubs, Pirates, Reds, Mets or Dodgers. Not the Yankees either.

I have just a smidgeon of Native American blood in my veins. But no one would ever identify me as such. I had always been of the impression that using Native American mascots the schools and professional teams were admiring the fighting spirit of Native Americans. But I suspect some are offended with being lumped in with the birds and animals.

People have a tendency to form opinions about people they do not know. My experience is that once I get to know someone, most of them I like. The ones I dislike has nothing to do with their race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. I think that is the way with most people. The challenge is not to pre-judge someone just because they are different.

To judge someone just because they are different is wrong just as it is wrong for people to assume I am a racist just because the color of my skin is white.

Unfortunately we live in an age where a few people have learned that most people find it abhorent to be considered a racist and will do almost anything to avoid such an accusation. Therefore the use of the race card is a very effective means of intimidation and subjugating people with different points of view. I suppose there are some who are carefully reading this to discover the codes that will label me as a racist.

Also unfortunately, we are living in an age where PC has replaced CS (common sense).

 

[SoonerSpock]

Since I am caucausian it is probably futile for me to weigh in but I will anyway.

As a graduate of OU I love the university and generally am very proud of it. I have never been enthralled with the Sooner nickname since the sooners were law breakers. But it is a non issue with me.

I have just a smidgeon of Native American blood in my veins. But no one would ever identify me as such. I had always been of the impression that using Native American mascots the schools and professional teams were admiring the fighting spirit of Native Americans. But I suspect some are offended with being lumped in with the birds and animals.

People have a tendency to form opinions about people they do not know. My experience is that once I get to know someone, most of them I like. The ones I dislike has nothing to do with their race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. I think that is the way with most people. The challenge is not to pre-judge someone because they are different.

To judge someone just because they are different is wrong just as it is wrong for people to assume I am a racist just because the color of my skin is white.

Unfortunately we live in an age where a few people have learned that most people find it abhorent to be considered a racist and will do almost anything to avoid such an accusation. Therefore the use of the race card is a very effective means of intimidation and subjugating people with different points of view. I suppose there are some who are carefully reading this to discover the codes that will label me as a racist.

Also unfortunately, we are living in an age where PC has replaced CS (common sense).

Hear, hear!!!

 

[womenssports]

To be honest, I never thought of "PC" as being polite and courteous. I always thought of it as an unwritten set of double-standards. And if you're on the wrong side of it, there's hell to pay.

Just look at what happened to Brett Favre after some ESPN-aired awards show. He got reamed in many circles for not acting "thrilled" for B./C. Jenner's life change. I don't recall him saying anything about Jenner, but Favre got ripped for apparently just giving the appearance on TV to disapprove of Jenner.

If you want to think of a PC case gone amok, I give you the "Duke Lacrosse Case." Watch the 30-for-30 special on it. Those kids were almost railroaded for (A) a renegade DA"s re-election and (B) being guilty of "white privilege." So it became okay to many that the could have gone to prison despite NO speck of DNA evidence (and they also had cell phone records showing two of the three kids weren't even at the house at the time), because they somehow deserved it due the "privilege" issue. I don't see how any thinking person could be okay with that.

That's how I see "PC" at least.

I don't know anything about what Favre did or did not do in regards to Bruce Jenner being transgender.

RE: the Duke Lacross team. It is not unusual for people to not wait for the
evidence when taking a side in a media driven case like this when the D.A. for whatever reason, possibly to be re-elected (that backfired on his career, didn't it?) pressed charges before he had fully investigated the case. But people not close to the case and not having access to the discovery had a reason to believe that these guys were probably guilty. I mean historically
white, male privileged athletes do not get RAPE charges brought against them when the accuser is black. Thus it would be pretty easy to believe these guys were guilty based on the fact that they were charged. This wasn't about PC, it was about a D.A. not doing his job. I could look up plenty of stats to prove this point, so I don't see how it could possibly be about being PC. I do seem to remember that these guys were notorious for their parties and that some of them were jerks, so that might have clouded some people's judgement. For me, I may have a feeling one way or the other, but I wait for the evidence and sometimes, no matter if there is a trial, I don't necessarily feel I know what is true and not. Too many people in jail who are innocent. Sometimes, I don't agree that there is enough evidence that the Judge should allow it to go to trial. Am sure there are always people on both sides of a case who have no involvement other than interest. Working at Legal Aid when OJ was tried, I can tell you the arguments from attorneys on both sides were pretty fervent. And can tell you that no one was feeling PC. It was all about what they saw legally being presented.

 

[womenssports]

What is Womenssports' age?

I guess, like I need to wait until I am old enough to have had world history, (actually did have world history and then Native America History at OU), thinking GoSooner2 may be too old to do math in his head since I stated the year I was born, so age would be pretty easy to figure.

 

[womenssports]

If the feelings and believes of the Native American people go no deeper than Booner and Sooner than when does it stop. Anyone who is as old as I am (78) and has parents and grandparents who lived in Oklahoma probably has some native american blood in their background. Mine is Chickasaw and proud of it. My statement about world history still stands. Wealthy, powerful people have always run the world! Do we bulldoze Rome because the Romans were really not nice people! Does everyone who has the last name of Jackson change it because it does have a slave connotation. Millions and millions of people have and are being persecuted. The level of education offered on Native American reservations is minimal to say the least. Do you sing "Onward Christan Sholder" wow the crusades were something were they not!. Should all the Germans still be in prison? History is History you can learn from it but you cannot change it. There are plenty of Native American issues these kids can address the one they chose unfortunately is not a good one.Why don't they spend a few summers teaching on a reservation? Go back far enough (some only want to go back as far as fits their need) and everyone has an issue. The hope is going forward not going backward.

You haven't lived the present day Native American experience. Of course, you can go back in history until the beginning of homo sapiens to the present and there was war, stealing, cruelty, killings; but that is so not the point. The point is that the Native American population was decimated by white men, that white men were greedy and bigoted and even the governmenthas not to this day stood by its treaties with the Native Americans. AND as I have stated the land run was NOT back in historic times in the wild, west. I was born in 1950 in Ok. and I KNOW that there were Native Americans at that time who had nothing because of the way the government first forced them to come here because the whites didn't want this land, THEN the white man decided this land looked pretty good for farming and there had been depressions so they just took it back. THIS was ELEVEN years before the 20th century. I mean we were supposed to have advanced as people, as a government, as a country. Shoot don't some of you think this is a Christian nation? When the allotment process began in 1887, the total land held by American Indian tribes on reservations equaled 138,000,000 acres. By the end of the allotment period landholdings had been reduced to 48,000,000 acres. I won't go further into the reasons but suffice it to say that the Native Americans were again cheated when given their allotments. Finally, racism against Native Americans is ingrained to this day. I could give many examples of different situations which exhibit this but see no reason to. I will just give one link: http://mic.com/articles/101804/this...gainst-native-americans-looks-like#.6TLsvMp68
I will also add that just because you do not think Boomer Sooner is offensive
and just because it does not remind you of the discrimination they have and are still suffering, does not mean it is not a legitimate concern to them. AND AGAIN, just like blacks have many discrimination issues which are environmental, health, economic, justice, school, so do Native Americans. And just because Blacks have been fighting for years to rid the country of the Rebel Flag, does not mean they have not been fighting for other injustices. Many whites will tell you the rebel flag is about their history not about racism and I am sure some of you would agree, but they are finally making progress in ridding this disgusting symbol from our state capitols. Now, Native Americans do not want Boomers and Sooners to represent and celebrate our state university. Just like Columbus Day is offensive to Native Americans and they are trying to get rid of it. The fact is just because you have not experienced something and you have not explored the issue with people who have nor read articles from their viewpoint nor talked to a scholars on the issue does not mean the matter is if no importance.

 

[SoonerSpock]

You haven't lived the present day Native American experience. Of course, you can go back in history until the beginning of homo sapiens to the present and there was war, stealing, cruelty, killings; but that is so not the point. The point is that the Native American population was decimated by white men, that white men were greedy and bigoted and even the governmenthas not to this day stood by its treaties with the Native Americans. AND as I have stated the land run was NOT back in historic times in the wild, west. I was born in 1950 in Ok. and I KNOW that there were Native Americans at that time who had nothing because of the way the government first forced them to come here because the whites didn't want this land, THEN the white man decided this land looked pretty good for farming and there had been depressions so they just took it back. THIS was ELEVEN years before the 20th century. I mean we were supposed to have advanced as people, as a government, as a country. Shoot don't some of you think this is a Christian nation? When the allotment process began in 1887, the total land held by American Indian tribes on reservations equaled 138,000,000 acres. By the end of the allotment period landholdings had been reduced to 48,000,000 acres. I won't go further into the reasons but suffice it to say that the Native Americans were again cheated when given their allotments. Finally, racism against Native Americans is ingrained to this day. I could give many examples of different situations which exhibit this but see no reason to. I will just give one link: http://mic.com/articles/101804/this...gainst-native-americans-looks-like#.6TLsvMp68
I will also add that just because you do not think Boomer Sooner is offensive
and just because it does not remind you of the discrimination they have and are still suffering, does not mean it is not a legitimate concern to them. AND AGAIN, just like blacks have many discrimination issues which are environmental, health, economic, justice, school, so do Native Americans. And just because Blacks have been fighting for years to rid the country of the Rebel Flag, does not mean they have not been fighting for other injustices. Many whites will tell you the rebel flag is about their history not about racism and I am sure some of you would agree, but they are finally making progress in ridding this disgusting symbol from our state capitols. Now, Native Americans do not want Boomers and Sooners to represent and celebrate our state university. Just like Columbus Day is offensive to Native Americans and they are trying to get rid of it. The fact is just because you have not experienced something and you have not explored the issue with people who have nor read articles from their viewpoint nor talked to a scholars on the issue does not mean the matter is if no importance.

As a Native American that has been exposed to discrimination for 60 plus year because of my lineage. I personally think the Native American group Indigenous OU is misguided in their efforts to right Native American injustices. Not only are they offended by the Boomer Sooner slogan but they have also got the student government to approve a non-binding resolution to recognize October 12 (Columbus Day) as Indigenous People's Day because Columbus Day offends them as well.

Were they really concerned about the injustices Native Americans face everyday their efforts would be focused on improving Native American education, heathcare, jobs, poverty, etc. If they are offended by the Boomer Sooner expression why choose to attend a university that offends you? Go somewhere where you can have a positive attitude.

If they truly want to help the Native American students focus on undoing a recent change in the OU administration wherein the American Indian Scholars Scholarship is no longer offered because of lost state revenue due to the oil industry bust . This scholarship offered out-of-state tuition waivers to students with ties to Oklahoma's 38 federally recognized tribes. This change will more than double the cost for those students to attend OU. Let them work diligently to publicise this wrong and get it rectified.

I submit that it probably not the disgust of Boomer Sooner that motivates them but instead the opportunity to get headlines with their actions. Perhaps their efforts should be focused on better higher educational opportunities for our people and make every effort to increase the OU student NA population to state demographic levels (4% to 8%).

If changing Boomer Sooner or Columbus Day to a new fight song and Indigenous People's Day is of importance to them then they are void of common sense. They do not know how to help our people they want only to feed their egos. They need to pick battles that will improve the quality of life of our people not incite disgust toward our people by a preponderance of the state population. Boomer Sooner offends them because they want Boomer Sooner to offend them. They have a bad case of poor pitiful me syndrome. Grow up be a man/women.

FYI as of October 2015 the group Indigenous OU consisted of only 4 Native American students while there is an estimated 1,150+ Native Americans on campus in Norman. Theirs is not the voice of our people on campus. Also OU teaches 5 Native American languages more than any university in the world and OU ranks in the top 5 in the nation in the number of undergraduate degrees conferred to Native Americans.


http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/24437/

http://www.ou.edu/publicaffairs/oufacts.html

https://www.insidehighered.com/news...oing-enough-states-american-indian-population

 

[SoonerinNC]

I think Spock nailed it.

I rue the day that slavery was introduced in our country. But the treatment of the Native Americans has been far worse. And to think that our government was complicit through the constant lies and violation of treaties.

However, who has benefited from the change of the Stanford Indians to the Stanford Cardinal. Who will really benefit from dropping Sooners.

We have stopped being a nation of problem solvers. Let's get on with solving the problems that our Native Americans face today rather than dwell on past injustices with symbolic changes. Let's fix the education and other major issues. And while someone will not like it, I believe that Native Americans will have to help do that rather than wait for someone else to fix everything.

An example of what I mean is the horrible conditions in the African American poor areas. It will be impossible to make much progress there until the young ladies stop having babies out of wedlock at a 70+ percent rate and fathers stay around to help make a family. And until the citizens of those neighborhoods stop shielding the gang members and drug dealers from the police. I know that many hate and distrust the police and feel that it is just to give a wink and a nod to criminal behavior because of past and even present injustices but they are only hurting themselves.

I'm not saying that Native Americans have the same problems where there a large concentration of them. I have three nephews who married Native American women. One of them two times. They are no different than anyone else in our family. I think they did because their wives families had integrated into mainstream America. While that may be abhorent to some it may be the only solution. Everyone who can should contribute to the solution to problems.

I do not have a problem with anyone who protests something that offends them. But removing symbols doesn't do anything for fixing the education and other problems.

Drop the name Sooner if you want. Just don't use the names of baseball teams I don't like and heaven forbid "horsepigs".

 

[SoonerSpock]

I think Spock nailed it.

I rue the day that slavery was introduced in our country. But the treatment of the Native Americans has been far worse. And to think that our government was complicit through the constant lies and violation of treaties.

However, who has benefited from the change of the Stanford Indians to the Stanford Cardinal. Who will really benefit from dropping Sooners.

We have stopped being a nation of problem solvers. Let's get on with solving the problems that our Native Americans face today rather than dwell on past injustices with symbolic changes. Let's fix the education and other major issues. And while someone will not like it, I believe that Native Americans will have to help do that rather than wait for someone else to fix everything.

An example of what I mean is the horrible conditions in the African American poor areas. It will be impossible to make much progress there until the young ladies stop having babies out of wedlock at a 70+ percent rate and fathers stay around to help make a family. And until the citizens of those neighborhoods stop shielding the gang members and drug dealers from the police. I know that many hate and distrust the police and feel that it is just to give a wink and a nod to criminal behavior because of past and even present injustices but they are only hurting themselves.

I'm not saying that Native Americans have the same problems where there a large concentration of them. I have three nephews who married Native American women. One of them two times. They are no different than anyone else in our family. I think they did because their wives families had integrated into mainstream America. While that may be abhorent to some it may be the only solution. Everyone who can should contribute to the solution to problems.

I do not have a problem with anyone who protests something that offends them. But removing symbols doesn't do anything for fixing the education and other problems.

Drop the name Sooner if you want. Just don't use the names of baseball teams I don't like and heaven forbid "horsepigs".

I guess the members of Indigenous OU could transfer to OSU and focus on getting rid of the Cowboy mascot as cowboys relished murdering indians if just for spite instead of the Sooners for sneaking in early :ez-roll:

 

[womenssports]

As a Native American that has been exposed to discrimination for 60 plus year because of my lineage. I personally think the Native American group Indigenous OU is misguided in their efforts to right Native American injustices. Not only are they offended by the Boomer Sooner slogan but they have also got the student government to approve a non-binding resolution to recognize October 12 (Columbus Day) as Indigenous People's Day because Columbus Day offends them as well.

Were they really concerned about the injustices Native Americans face everyday their efforts would be focused on improving Native American education, heathcare, jobs, poverty, etc. If they are offended by the Boomer Sooner expression why choose to attend a university that offends you? Go somewhere where you can have a positive attitude.

If they truly want to help the Native American students focus on undoing a recent change in the OU administration wherein the American Indian Scholars Scholarship is no longer offered because of lost state revenue due to the oil industry bust . This scholarship offered out-of-state tuition waivers to students with ties to Oklahoma's 38 federally recognized tribes. This change will more than double the cost for those students to attend OU. Let them work diligently to publicise this wrong and get it rectified.

I submit that it probably not the disgust of Boomer Sooner that motivates them but instead the opportunity to get headlines with their actions. Perhaps their efforts should be focused on better higher educational opportunities for our people and make every effort to increase the OU student NA population to state demographic levels (4% to 8%).

If changing Boomer Sooner or Columbus Day to a new fight song and Indigenous People's Day is of importance to them then they are void of common sense. They do not know how to help our people they want only to feed their egos. They need to pick battles that will improve the quality of life of our people not incite disgust toward our people by a preponderance of the state population. Boomer Sooner offends them because they want Boomer Sooner to offend them. They have a bad case of poor pitiful me syndrome. Grow up be a man/women.

FYI as of October 2015 the group Indigenous OU consisted of only 4 Native American students while there is an estimated 1,150+ Native Americans on campus in Norman. Theirs is not the voice of our people on campus. Also OU teaches 5 Native American languages more than any university in the world and OU ranks in the top 5 in the nation in the number of undergraduate degrees conferred to Native Americans.


http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/24437/

http://www.ou.edu/publicaffairs/oufacts.html

https://www.insidehighered.com/news...oing-enough-states-american-indian-population

You act like this is all they are doing. You have no idea what these students experience has been nor what they are doing besides recognizing that OU uses words to describe their mascots, words for their fight song, a slogan and finally a schooner which comes onto the field at football games to celebrate a team. Sound much like it represents ANYTHING other than the land run? JUST because you aren't offended does not mean it is not offensive to other Native Americans, as well as whites. Symbols like words perpetuate bigotry. MAYBE if white people would acknowledge what they did, the government acknowledge what they did it would help. Still like the Confederate flag, Columbus Day and Boomer Sooner, these are symbols of oppression and that should be acknowledged and they should be done away with. As bad as the way blacks are still treated in this country, they have the economic and other advantages over Native Americans. Again symbols matter and by this group working for this, it also makes people have to THINK about what was and is STILL being done to Native Americans.

I doubt that you and I, nor any people at this site will agree but I mentioned it to a couple of white women I had just met (about my age) not knowing how they would react and one immediately said it is about time. I know many people who agree about Boomer Sooner. Not people I run around with or know well, just people I have heard from personally or through mutual friends and acquaintances.

FINALLY, it is absurd for one who sees somebody working on one issue of a greater problem and assumes that is all they work on and all they care about. You don't know these people you don't know what they do in their community nor for their community. People on here are just making assumptions about them which is not a smart thing to do.

OH, one thing I have think should be addressed. Native Americans in this country and in Canada should be thanked for the things that they are doing which are helping to save the environment for all of us.

 

[SoonerSpock]

You act like this is all they are doing. You have no idea what these students experience has been nor what they are doing besides recognizing that OU uses words to describe their mascots, words for their fight song, a slogan and finally a schooner which comes onto the field at football games to celebrate a team. Sound much like it represents ANYTHING other than the land run? JUST because you aren't offended does not mean it is not offensive to other Native Americans, as well as whites. Symbols like words perpetuate bigotry. MAYBE if white people would acknowledge what they did, the government acknowledge what they did it would help. Still like the Confederate flag, Columbus Day and Boomer Sooner, these are symbols of oppression and that should be acknowledged and they should be done away with. As bad as the way blacks are still treated in this country, they have the economic and other advantages over Native Americans. Again symbols matter and by this group working for this, it also makes people have to THINK about what was and is STILL being done to Native Americans.

I doubt that you and I, nor any people at this site will agree but I mentioned it to a couple of white women I had just met (about my age) not knowing how they would react and one immediately said it is about time. I know many people who agree about Boomer Sooner. Not people I run around with or know well, just people I have heard from personally or through mutual friends and acquaintances.

FINALLY, it is absurd for one who sees somebody working on one issue of a greater problem and assumes that is all they work on and all they care about. You don't know these people you don't know what they do in their community nor for their community. People on here are just making assumptions about them which is not a smart thing to do.

OH, one thing I have think should be addressed. Native Americans in this country and in Canada should be thanked for the things that they are doing which are helping to save the environment for all of us.

Let us just agree to disagree. For certain I perceive that the actions of Indigenous OU works against what needs to be done to minimize discrimination and bigotry again me and my fellow Native Americans. And I know from discussing racial issues with my peers over the last 60 years that a significant majority of them concur with my feelings. I also think their actions slow the process of bettering all Native Americans when with the right focus they could be improving the situation. I also could care less if their feels are hurt I think they just need to grow up and live in the real world. But I do not appreciate their putting my people in a bad light.

With that statement I will be excluding my sell from this conversation going forward as it is obvious that nothing else can be accomplished. You have your thought I have mine. Having differences is normal and healthy and I am out.

 

[womenssports]

Let us just agree to disagree. For certain I perceive that the actions of Indigenous OU works against what needs to be done to minimize discrimination and bigotry again me and my fellow Native Americans. And I know from discussing racial issues with my peers over the last 60 years that a significant majority of them concur with my feelings. I also think their actions slow the process of bettering all Native Americans when with the right focus they could be improving the situation. I also could care less if their feels are hurt I think they just need to grow up and live in the real world. But I do not appreciate their putting my people in a bad light.

With that statement I will be excluding my sell from this conversation going forward as it is obvious that nothing else can be accomplished. You have your thought I have mine. Having differences is normal and healthy and I am out.

Agree. I had dropped out of the thread much earlier but every time I came to this site (not this thread), I saw that it seemed to keep getting longer. Curiosity got the best of me and then I felt a need to address some issues. As I said in my previous thread, I doubt that anyone on here is in agreement with anything I say. I don't take disagreements personal. AND to take them personally when they occur on the internet is really inane most of the time, because communication is so much more difficult.

 

[SoonerinNC]

If you feel that no one agrees with anything you say you are not listening to what other posters are saying.

No one can deny history. It happened. That was very unfortunate and unfair but attacking symbols that were established with no intent to do harm will do little to solve the problems holding Native Americans back.

If education is a serious problem and I suspect it is, take that on with the same determination. Also look in the mirror and be sure that the problems within the Native American community dealing with education are also addressed.

It would be good if we were all the same color, general size and general appearance. But you know what. People would still find reasons to believe they were better than others.

 

[sybarite]

Identical twins who join competing garden clubs can end up as mortal enemies. The tendency to blame this or that group does exist, but the fact is that the members of a garden club, having no prior differences, can generate a situation that makes them into enemies. They may only shop at stores owned by members of their garden club, or may vote only for members of their garden club in elections. Members of my garden club may be preferred when it comes to giving scholarships or loans. Garden clubs may become proud of their membership in their club as opposed to the other, and may begin to discriminate against the members of the other garden club. Within the confines of their club, they make jokes about the members of the other club. They become the target of disparaging remarks, and specific terms of derision are used to denote the members of the other garden club. What hat begun as a simple love of flowers and a desire to learn more about how to raise them has now erupted into groups that despise and condemn each other.

If you examine the world around you, you will find numerous examples of artificial barriers that lead to discrimination, not just those related to race or sex. Religions based on love end up competing in hostility. If no barriers exist, we will make some to assure that we are different from others. The art of politics is primarily the erection and control of barriers that include as many as possible into our group, often due to completely irrational principles. There is no room for discussion because nobody is listening.

One way to diffuse this is to listen and try to reach across boundaries. We have also erected a rather unique term within the past hundred years called political correctness which is always a negative term. It is never used as a positive. It discourages listening. Rather than reaching out to understand, the opposing group must now accede to your concept of reason and adapt to your meaning of terms.

This stops when you reach across and ask what you mean by a term. Why does it offend you? It wasn't meant to offend. But, the fact is that if it does offend someone, why use it? You may not mean to offend, but it is heard as an offense. Why not change what you say? Is it necessary to use that word? Can you accomplish your goal by using another that is not offensive?

Communication is not inborn. We learn languages. We learn the meaning of words within the framework of our own culture. It changes. Two hundred years ago, some words had very different meanings than they do now. A word has whatever meaning is ascribed to it. If there is disagreement over the meaning, why use it? Can we examine the word to see what it means to various people?

When I lived in Germany, an older German came up to me in a spirit of friendship hoping to kindle good spirit. He said, "I see you like fags." I looked at him rather strangely, wondering why he thought that. Then, he pointed to my cigarette, and I remembered that twenty years earlier, some referred to them as fags in the US. I laughed and explained what the term now means in the US. He had learned his English listening to the BBC. As Oscar Wilde had said, American and England are two great countries separated by a common language.

Are we separated by a common language? Are we willing to learn what the terms mean to everyone? Is it necessary to offend someone?

 

[womenssports]

If you feel that no one agrees with anything you say you are not listening to what other posters are saying.

No one can deny history. It happened. That was very unfortunate and unfair but attacking symbols that were established with no intent to do harm will do little to solve the problems holding Native Americans back.

If education is a serious problem and I suspect it is, take that on with the same determination. Also look in the mirror and be sure that the problems within the Native American community dealing with education are also addressed.

It would be good if we were all the same color, general size and general appearance. But you know what. People would still find reasons to believe they were better than others.

Actually, I did misspeak and probably would not have realized because I would not have reread my post had you not pointed it out. What I was thinking though did not write was that no one was going to agree with the main issue regarding Boomer Sooner and that I believed that it in fact should be changed to something else, that it has always represented the land run and that that perpetuates bigotry. I did not mean people were denying the land run. My bad.

 

[giraffespots]

My last comment.

I am not really interested in changing Boomer/Sooner for the reasons cited by the student group. Mainly, because the terms are not racially based. Many races participated in the land run. The terms Boomer/Sooner do not marginalize or stereotype Natives. The reason I do not like the Florida State Seminoles, is because that mascot and their chants, chops, etc. DO. We are a people, we are not mascots. These mascots were not established as a way to admire our fighting spirit, they were established because back in the day, Natives were considered to be animals, not even human.

But, I digress. I agree with Spock. Selecting Boomer/Sooner and Columbus Day to be "offended" by could possibly be just a way to get noticed. Columbus Day, Thanksgiving, 89er land run, etc. is not really offensive, they are reminders of our past, but we cannot change history, either the good parts or the bad parts.

By using the mascot as their issue, they have drawn the spotlight; however, they have made it easy for the masses to treat them and their concerns with disdain, and to dismiss them as young, misguided, etc. Much like this board did; although it has evolved into a great discussion.

Now, that they have a spotlight and they should try to change something that will truly make a difference. There are so many real issues they could focus on. I do think that they should be give a voice and not summarily dismissed, but they definitely could benefit from the guidance of older Natives, which I am not sure they have.

As for my opinion, while the run could only take place after land was taken from Natives, we must as a people move on. It happened, no on denies it. What should happen, IMO, is for this issue to be treated merely as an awareness-raising project. Many people do not realize the significance of Sooner, especially those outside this state. Personally, I would like to not have a mascot that celebrates thieves stealing from other thieves, but I have to objections to it for cultural reasons. Also, by this time, there is plenty of positive university history attached to the names.

 

[betterstill]

As a result of protests, the people who sponser the 89er Day Parade in Norman have announced that they are going to change the name next year.