Who was it who said Baylor can't win just playing zone?

coolm

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win or lose I think Drew has shown you can do just fine defensively using the zone as a base - it's an issue of how active you are otherwise.

Arms up
harassing the passes
strangling the lanes
slapping the ball underneath

all part of defense.

you don't even hafta go to matchup. you can just expand a bit.
 
It is the length of Baylor's zone defense that makes it so much better than the normal 2-3. When you can put long 6'10's on the wing with Jones and Udoh, and then an athletic 6'7 with Acy when Lomers goes out and Udoh moves to middle, you can cover alot more ground than teams normally can.

Syracuse's zones were better when they had guys like Warrick and Melo (remember the block in the KU championship game). They played two center-types last year and couldn't get to shooters the way they could this year with Wesley Johnson.

Even if Udoh leaves BU's zone should still be very good next year with Anthony Jones, Acy, Perry Jones, and Cory Jefferson (if he lives up to his any of his potential) all able to cover the back line.
 
I agree about the length and extending the zone. But like I said that's all a part of playing good D anyway. You can be incredibly active in the zone to the verge of playing a matchup...or you can sit back and compress it to do little more than stop penetration.

Watch the Baylor players (next year I guess or in the replays) in their zone. When the opposition is getting those open looks in blocks it's normally when the guys are slacking and laying off a bit. When they're active there's usually some kind of disruption by at least the third pass - - and one ton o'slapping when it gets dumped to the high post.

Of course there are holes. But it's not as if all defenses don't have holes. IMO playing a base zone makes it easier to focus on some of the other things - if you can make up for the problems with rebounding.
 
Of course there are holes. But it's not as if all defenses don't have holes. IMO playing a base zone makes it easier to focus on some of the other things - if you can make up for the problems with rebounding.
^ That is a big if.
 
^ That is a big if.
Indeed. Something like 25 offensive rebounds for Duke?

Very few zone teams ever cut down the nets, and the last one had an NBA Hall of Famer toying with college players.
 
...and how many teams did Baylor decimate on the boards this year?

Using one game is a poor key. It was a very successful season for Baylor playing out of the zone and their improved defense this year was the key EVERYONE talked about.

You guys can choose to not believe it if you wish, but good D can be played from the zone.
 
This is a Jay Bilas column in ESPN The Magazine a few weeks ago, in which he argues that teams should play more zone:

Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim is a smart man, and his big brain is always focused on ways to win. So he plays percentages, studies every last detail and doesn't waste time with conventional coaching wisdom. Some by-products of his brain are subtle, like his eschewing morning shootarounds because, frankly, he finds them useless. But others are as synonymous with his program as Otto the Orange, notably his commitment to a 2-3 matchup zone.



Boeheim's strategy shouldn't seem revolutionary, but these days it is. Few top teams deviate from strict man-to-man, let alone utilize a zone as their primary defense. No coach at a big-time program relies on zone as heavily as Boeheim, and only Louisville's Rick Pitino (a Boeheim disciple) and Arizona State's Herb Sendek come close to using a 2-3 as often.



So why don't more coaches follow a strategy that has helped Boeheim win 800-plus games and a national title? It mostly comes down to myths and machismo. For instance, a common perception is that a 2-3 yields open three-pointers, and yet somehow Syracuse has held opponents to 30.6 percent shooting from deep this season, 36th in the nation. "When teams hit a few threes on Bob Knight's man-to-man, nobody told him to get out of his defense," Boeheim says. "They just needed to play it better. And if a team is beating our zone, we need to play it better." Coaches also cite the fact that it's tougher to rebound out of a zone than with man, but that's a minor trade-off, especially since those offensive boards tend to be long ones that don't lead to easy putbacks.



And the machismo? Many coaches believe that if they're not running man-to-man they're not coaching at all. They also worry about the blame game. Says UConn associate head coach George Blaney: "Jim Calhoun believes in man-to-man. The reasons are position, strength and that he can hold our defenders accountable." But Boeheim understands his zone so well that he knows exactly who's accountable, even if it's hard for outsiders to see.



Either way, the shunning of zone represents a caveman mentality in a sport where Darwin generally carries the day. It's time for change, folks, and here are four main reasons:



1. Zone D is a big preparation advantage. Most college teams run upwards of 50 different plays against man, meaning a great amount of film study and practice is devoted to what the other team wants to do. But a zone flips the script, shifting the prep work onto opposing shoulders. Because defenders guard an area instead of a man, offenses can utilize only about two or three different wrinkles against a 2-3. And, Pitino says, "in all my years, I haven't seen one zone offense that's as good as a man offense." So while an opposing coach scrambles both to prepare his man-to-man D for multiple offensive sets and get his offense ready for an unfamiliar defensive look, a zone coach can turn his attention inward toward execution and player development.



Nowhere is that advantage more critical than in postseason play, with short turnaround time between games. Syracuse's six-overtime win against UConn in last year's Big East tourney was unforgettable. But do you recall that the next day the Orange knocked off West Virginia in OT, too? You'd think that after playing into the wee hours of the morning, the Orange would have been toast, from a preparation perspective. Thanks to their zone, that wasn't an issue.



2. Zone dictates opponents' shots. Against man, you can run plays to alter the position of the defense. A zone changes the equation by shading the defense toward certain areas of the court and forcing an offense to react to what you're giving them, which is often a low-percentage shot.

"I haven't seen one zone offense that's as good as a man offense," Pitino says.
All defenses have holes, but Boeheim structures his zone so that the opening is at the foul line, where college bigs struggle to make a play. "Good teams would giggle if they saw a zone 25 years ago," Blaney says. "But passing isn't as good as it used to be, and midrange play has all but disappeared." Similarly, the 2-3 gives up corner threes more often than other shots, but that's another calculated risk. Boeheim believes they are low-percentage shots that don't allow for optimal offensive rebounding.



And not all zones operate the same way. Boeheim adjusts his emphasis and alignment based on personnel. Louisville is more active in trapping and harassing ballhandlers. Neither D remotely resembles the passive, force-the-deep-shot stuff that passes for zone at the local rec center.



Zones also force system-based offenses to radically change what they do best. Georgetown runs a Princeton style based on constant movement, backdoor cuts and dribble handoffs -- all negated by a 2-3 zone. The Hoyas put up just 56 points in a 17-point loss at Syracuse in January. In their next game, against Duke's man D, the Hoyas scored 89 in a 12-point win. A week later, they lit up Villanova for 103 in another win.



Simply put, against man-to-man, the offense dictates where the ball will go; against zone, the offense is forced to react. That's a huge defensive benefit in late-game scenarios, making it easier to take away a team's first option. Want proof? Watch the end of the 2003 national championship game. Syracuse's zone prevented Kansas from running, say, a pick-and-roll with star Kirk Hinrich. Instead, the Jayhawks swung the ball to Michael Lee in the corner, a lesser option. He was momentarily open until Hakim Warrick, a rangy defender whom Boeheim had inserted precisely to challenge a corner three-pointer, flew at him and deflected his shot into the crowd.



3. Zone carves a clear path to a fast break. One of the least recognized benefits of a 2-3 is the way it positions players to turn defense into offense. Because the big men are closer to the basket, they're in prime position to rebound. And the guards are stationed perfectly to receive a quick outlet pass. This simplifies things for teams that run a numbered break, in which each player is assigned a specific lane. Against man-to-man, by contrast, a point guard can get caught under the basket, a center might contest a long jumper, or a player assigned to fill the left lane might be guarding someone on the right, throwing off the break and turning a potential layup into a possession grinding against the shot clock.



4. Zone keeps your guys on the court. Syracuse generally commits fewer fouls than its opponents, because many teams don't aggressively attack the zone, passing the ball around the perimeter instead of penetrating or cutting. Also, big men are less likely to pick up cheap fouls away from the basket, which tends to happen when they're forced to switch onto guards in man schemes. And if a player has four fouls, it's easier to protect him in a zone.



None of this means zone is a cure-all, and naysayers will note that Boeheim has won only one title, that Temple never made the Final Four with John Chaney's matchup zone and that Pitino's increased use of a 2-3 since his Kentucky days hasn't netted him a title at Louisville. The flaw in that logic? The sample size is too small. If few teams play zone, few zone teams will hoist the trophy.



In the meantime, Boeheim and his big brain will keep doing things his way. And there are more than 800 reasons to believe his approach is right.
 
"When teams hit a few threes on Bob Knight's man-to-man, nobody told him to get out of his defense," Boeheim says. "They just needed to play it better. And if a team is beating our zone, we need to play it better." Coaches also cite the fact that it's tougher to rebound out of a zone than with man, but that's a minor trade-off, especially since those offensive boards tend to be long ones that don't lead to easy putbacks.

gee...that sounds eerily familiar. almost a deja vu feeling. all you hafta do is run the fg%'s and you find the 2-3 and 2-1-2 do a more than adequate job defensively while procuring many other advantages.
 
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Coaches also cite the fact that it's tougher to rebound out of a zone than with man, but that's a minor trade-off, especially since those offensive boards tend to be long ones that don't lead to easy putbacks.
That's quite a bit of spin. Yea, nevermind all the extra possessions.

Zone is for middle school teams, class A teams from anytown USA, and teams that suck at guarding man to man. Baylor was an extreme exception given how tall they go, but alas, it cost them.
 
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That's quite a bit of spin. Yea, nevermind all the extra possessions.

Zone is for middle school teams, class A teams from anytown USA, and teams that suck at guarding man to man. Baylor was an extreme exception given how tall they go, but alas, it cost them.


I am sorry but thats a load of crap.
 
I am sorry but thats a load of crap.
Your argument is a load of crap. (I can do it too, although I never made my own secret basketball website, so what do I know)

Using one game is a poor key.
Using one good zone team is a poor key.

I agree. While he makes some interesting points to back up his argument, he glosses over the rebounding issue like a used car salesman.
Indeed. He would make a good politician.
 
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Zone is for middle school teams, class A teams from anytown USA, and teams that suck at guarding man to man. Baylor was an extreme exception given how tall they go, but alas, it cost them.
That's a broad brush, but can't disagree that the loose boards cost Baylor the game. Three chances for a board, all go to Duke, and all three end up as dagger-like threes from deep. Those nine points were the difference, not some charge/foul judgment on Zoubek.

I hate Duke as much as anybody, but I actually thought Zoubek got there.
 
The rebounding issue resolves itself with experience in the zone and is countered by "activity turnovers" from being more active in the passing lanes. The initial factors to good rebounding are still the same (desire, using your feet, anticipating the carom) and the blocking out issue becomes an experience and feel. There are many examples where zone rebounding actually helps players who are physically outmatched in man. Like the defense itself it's once again a matter of doing it right.

I am sorry guys...but you're wrong.
 
The rebounding issue resolves itself with experience in the zone and is countered by "activity turnovers" from being more active in the passing lanes. The initial factors to good rebounding are still the same (desire, using your feet, anticipating the carom) and the blocking out issue becomes an experience and feel. There are many examples where zone rebounding actually helps players who are physically outmatched in man. Like the defense itself it's once again a matter of doing it right.

I am sorry guys...but you're wrong.

:ez-roll::ez-roll:
 
The rebounding issue resolves itself with experience in the zone and is countered by "activity turnovers" from being more active in the passing lanes. The initial factors to good rebounding are still the same (desire, using your feet, anticipating the carom) and the blocking out issue becomes an experience and feel. There are many examples where zone rebounding actually helps players who are physically outmatched in man. Like the defense itself it's once again a matter of doing it right.

I am sorry guys...but you're wrong.
What evidence do you have to back that up? Sounds more like a theory to me. An unproven theory.

I am sorry guys...but you're wrong
Oh gosh, well in that case what was I thinking. I'll defer to your knowledge and resume here on out.
 
What evidence do you have to back that up? Sounds more like a theory to me. An unproven theory.


Oh gosh, well in that case what was I thinking. I'll defer to your knowledge and resume here on out.

:clap:clap
 
I hate getting into these because you guys will offer nada then expect ME to prove everything.

Fine. Let's see who baylor outrebounded this season: (I only looked at the majors, not counting gimmes)

Alabama
Az State
Arkansas
Oklahoma
Colorado
OSU
Kansas
Iowa State
Nebraska
Mizzou
TTech
ATM
Texas
Sam Houston State
St Mary's

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Does that really look like a team that's getting it's azz kicked on the boards? FYI most of those rebounding margins were double digits. The aberration was UMass but Baylor's shots were falling so well they didn't hafta rebound.
 
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Boss nobody said Baylor wasn't a good rebounding team.

I hate getting into these because you guys will offer nada then expect ME to prove everything.
You've proven nothing and provided no evidence. There is no evidence, as it's a theory. That's why "you're wrong" is baffling when you're simply posing a theorem.

Why should I offer anything, I don't accept the premise. I have 95% of successful college teams on my side, so I don't have to accept the premise. You have to provide information to show playing a zone can be an effective defense for teams that are not wildly long. Baylor has been proven the exception. What Baylor also showed is eventually those long rebounds are going to kill you.

using one good zone team is a poor key
 
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