Who was it who said Baylor can't win just playing zone?

[coolm]

Boss nobody said Baylor wasn't a good rebounding team.


You've proven nothing and provided no evidence. There is no evidence, as it's a theory. That's why "you're wrong" is baffling when you're simply posing a theorem.

Why should I offer anything, I don't accept the premise. I have 95% of successful college teams on my side, so I don't have to accept the premise. You have to provide information to show playing a zone can be an effective defense for teams that are not wildly long. Baylor has been proven the exception.

Why? I said the same things Boeheim and Pitino said ... and I said it when Drew made the change a couple of tourneys ago. My guys played zone and man and my experience was zone had advantages that countered the conventional criticism.

Having the status quo on your side is only applicable when the inherent problem or issue actually favors your argument. You can continue believing what you want obviously, but you'll just continue being wrong - just like the old "black men can't play QB" and similar arguments.

 

[luckyc1423]

Why? I said the same things Boeheim and Pitino said ... and I said it when Drew made the change a couple of tourneys ago. My guys played zone and man and my experience was zone had advantages that countered the conventional criticism.

Having the status quo on your side is only applicable when the inherent problem or issue actually favors your argument. You can continue believing what you want obviously, but you'll just continue being wrong - just like the old "black men can't play QB" and similar arguments.

lol

 

[Seymore Cox]

win or lose I think Drew has shown you can do just fine defensively using the zone as a base - it's an issue of how active you are otherwise.

Arms up
harassing the passes
strangling the lanes
slapping the ball underneath

all part of defense.

you don't even hafta go to matchup. you can just expand a bit.

I did. Udoh is made for it though. Kinda like Etan Thomas at the Cuse except Udoh can play the wing and let Lomers play the center or play the Center and let Acy be a wing. Without Udoh, that Zone gets toasted.

 

[playmakr]

Why? I said the same things Boeheim and Pitino said ... and I said it when Drew made the change a couple of tourneys ago. My guys played zone and man and my experience was zone had advantages that countered the conventional criticism.

My experience was our teams loved when teams would zone us. We would shoot wide open 3's and crash the glass. Man teams that practiced at it and came at us were much harder to deal with than zone teams. Nothing in my experience shows zone to be effective enough to play it over man in any instance, as a base defense. Every team should have some zone to mix it up or for foul trouble, but as a base defense if you are using it, it means you are lazy or can't guard anyone. Baylor goes 6'11, 6'10, 6'10, 6'5, 6'0. Of course they were effective at zone, but I am scared of what they could do with man with that size, if they could do it or coach it properly. Zone is a cop out. An admittance of defeat. I don't care what JV teams in small town Oklahoma play against each other.

Having the status quo on your side is only applicable when the inherent problem or issue actually favors your argument. You can continue believing what you want obviously, but you'll just continue being wrong - just like the old "black men can't play QB" and similar arguments.

You can also continue to believe what you want, but you will continue to be wrong. Posting some inane crap about black QB's doesn't get you off the hook for being wrong.

 

[coolm]

Without Udoh, that Zone gets toasted.

without an active player at X position the zone gets toasted?

duh


without an active player at X man gets toasted. getting "toasted" means it's not being done correctly. period.

 

[gracefor24]

Not to mention is one of the major reasons that makes Syracuse or Baylor's zone so effective is that hardly anyone plays it. Start having more teams play it and more teams begin preparing for it more often and the effectiveness level goes down.

 

[coolm]

You can also continue to believe what you want, but you will continue to be wrong. Posting some inane crap about black QB's doesn't get you off the hook for being wrong.

reading comprehension is your friend.


met·a·phor
   /ˈmɛtəˌfɔr, -fər/ Show Spelled[met-uh-fawr, -fer] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our God.”Compare mixed metaphor, simile (def. 1).
2.
something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.


Maybe you shoulda paid more attention in class. Perhaps that was part of your defensive liability?

 

[luckyc1423]

Not to mention is one of the major reasons that makes Syracuse or Baylor's zone so effective is that hardly anyone plays it. Start having more teams play it and more teams begin preparing for it more often and the effectiveness level goes down.

+1
man-to-man is the way to go...

 

[DFWHoopster]

the decision to play zone at Baylor was primarily dictated by Josh Lomers' lack of athleticism and smallish, quick guards last year (Dugat, Jerrells, Carter, Dunn) who were getting beat up by bigger players in man to man. The decision turned Baylor's season around last year so they stuck with it.

I think you will see a lot more man to man from Baylor next year with a mix of the matchup zone. In talking with a Baylor coach this weekend, they believe Perry Jones is such a good ballhandler that he can play some 2. What they envision is a 1-3-1 pressing zone package with Walton or Dunn at the 1 and Anthony Jones, Perry Jones, Cory Jefferson and Quincy Acy trapping and causing problems.

At first I thought it sounded crazy but the more I think about it, the length and athleticism of that line is freakish. I assume Udoh is going pro. It would be difficult for an offense to get open looks against an active zone that included:

Anthony Jones 6'10" and extremely long
Perry Jones 6'11" and extremely long
Cory Jefferson 6'9" and extremely long
Quincy Acy 6'8" and long

All of those guys can move well.

I think with Lomers gone, you will see Baylor mix up their defensive packages a lot more than they did in the past.

 

[DSMok1]

A defense can have 1 of 2 things:

Great defensive rebounding
Great shooting defense

Either route is viable.

This year, Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, West Virginia, and Baylor chose #2. Kansas, Kentucky and Duke do it man-to-man; the other 2 chose zone.

Other teams chose to rebound at the expense of great FG% defense: Wisconsin, Utah St., New Mexico, Butler.... oddly enough, more of the top teams chose to skip the defensive rebounding than chose to skip the EFG% defense.

Obviously, I'm simplifying a little...but Baylor's defensive rebounding being middle of the pack is NOT unusual for top teams. In fact, 6 of the top 10 defensive teams this year are not in the top 100 of defensive rebounding! Correlation of EFG% to quality of defense: 76%. Correlation of defensive rebounding to quality of defense: 44%.

Zone and man-to-man are both viable routes. Baylor's defensive profile looks similar statistically to Duke's. What's the big deal? (Look at the data here: http://www.kenpom.com/factors.php?y=2010&t=d)

 

[playmakr]

reading comprehension is your friend.

No I understood fine. I understood what you were trying to do. You were trying to deflect, which you are now further doing by getting to the insults, which is what people like you do when you're wrong or simply have run out of responses.

Maybe you shoulda paid more attention in class. Perhaps that was part of your defensive liability?

Yea man, you got me. If only I would have finished high school. I would put my degrees up against yours any day of the week. People stopped being impressed by you a long, long time ago. But maybe I shouldn't speak for others. I stopped being impressed with you a long, long time ago. You didn't have a response, so you resorted to side tactics. But I'm glad you did, I got some comic relief during this boring 4 hour afternoon seminar I'm currently not listening to (or as you would assume it is, a staff meeting on how to properly clean the toilets). Thanks.

DSmok1, can you account for 2nd chance points and total shots attempted, 3 pt percentage, turnovers, etc?

 

[DSMok1]

DSmok1, can you account for 2nd chance points and total shots attempted, 3 pt percentage, turnovers, etc?

Yes. I'm comparing each factor to points allowed per possession, where possession can include multiple shot attempts after offensive rebounds. What do you want to know?

 

[playmakr]

Yes. I'm comparing each factor to points allowed per possession, where possession can include multiple shot attempts after offensive rebounds. What do you want to know?

An historic look into points allowed per possession and rebounding margin of zone teams as well as turnover margins.

The only problem is, the point is what if those teams played man? That's where it is difficult to compare.

 

[DSMok1]

An historic look into points allowed per possession and rebounding margin of zone teams as well as turnover margins.

The only problem is, the point is what if those teams played man? That's where it is difficult to compare.

I don't know who played zone vs. who played man, unfortunately. That's not exactly listed anywhere I know of. KenPom estimates what a team plays based on their statistical fingerprint, but that's by no means foolproof.

 

[Edmond_Sooner]

Wow, i'd like to jump in but im not sure where to start...

I think Syracuse has had success using it, but i agree with someone that posted about how the Zone would be far less effective if it was something that teams game planned against on a consistent basis (more teams playing zone)...right now it is a tempo changer and something that demands only about 1 day a week for maybe 10-15 min in prep for a team that implements it on occasion...

Very solid HS defense for some teams and we even played the Match-up full time in Juco, but no way that would have been consistently sucessful at the High Major level...and that had man-to-man principles...

 

[campbest]

We played zone in college, mainly due to the fact that we were an atrocious defensive team and couldn't slow down some of the athletes in our league.

I will take a great man-to-man over a zone any day of the week...as someone else said, the preparation factor is what gives zones some advantage from time to time. Baylor had the measureables to make it work this year, as DFW said, they will probably mix in more conventional man-to-man next year.

Personally, I hate watching teams in the 6th-10th grades playing zone all the time...teach your kids to play man first, then work into a zone if you so desire.

 

[playmakr]

Wow, i'd like to jump in but im not sure where to start...

I think Syracuse has had success using it, but i agree with someone that posted about how the Zone would be far less effective if it was something that teams game planned against on a consistent basis (more teams playing zone)...right now it is a tempo changer and something that demands only about 1 day a week for maybe 10-15 min in prep for a team that implements it on occasion...

Very solid HS defense for some teams and we even played the Match-up full time in Juco, but no way that would have been consistently sucessful at the High Major level...and that had man-to-man principles...

Yea, a match-up zone is basically just a sagging, switch everything man-to-man. It can be effective, but less so than man. Match-up zone can F up people at the high school level, when half the team consists of guys who suck.

 

[playmakr]

We played zone in college, mainly due to the fact that we were an atrocious defensive team and couldn't slow down some of the athletes in our league.

I will take a great man-to-man over a zone any day of the week...as someone else said, the preparation factor is what gives zones some advantage from time to time. Baylor had the measureables to make it work this year, as DFW said, they will probably mix in more conventional man-to-man next year.

Personally, I hate watching teams in the 6th-10th grades playing zone all the time...teach your kids to play man first, then work into a zone if you so desire.

I agree. It is usually laziness, and the fact that most coach's are simply history teachers who want a little extra pay.

 

[campbest]

I'd like to believe there is a reason all the adult scrub league teams I officiate play zone.

 

[Edmond_Sooner]

I'd like to believe there is a reason all the adult scrub league teams I officiate play zone.

cause we are lazy as all get out and dont want to run through picks or actually have to move our feet (gotta save it so we can get our glory on offense)...haha

and what is funny is in those leagues, the team that decides to man up usually wins...haha...