Would we really be better off?

[WichitaSooner]

Since it always seems to be a major topic, I went back and found this post from late March of last year, when the annual JUCO debate was kicking into high gear. In bold is what thebigabd said:

"We've posted in other threads all the best juco talent out there that fill needs at OU.... Devonte Bandoo, Ricky Torres, Austin Trice, Antun Maricevic... I know Trice is visiting, but getting ALL the best guys this late in the game is a tall order. Plus, all the above mentioned guys have good offer lists already.

This is why OU needs to have guys like Bandoo, Trice, etc already locked up in the early period. But they don't prioritize these types of players so now we are coming in at the end trying to land them."

Now, in the past few weeks, we have seen tons of references to Bandoo, plus Mason Jones (who wasn't even listed in that post). We've not, however, heard so much as a whisper of the names of the other three. For the record, Maricevic is averaging 3.7 pts and 2.7 boards at South Florida. Trice is at 1.9 pts and 2.5 boards and rarely sees the floor for KSU. Torres is at 2.3 pts and 2.75 assists and is shooting .077 from three for Wichita State. (The last number is not a typo.)

I am not posting this to make fun of abd for being wrong about something. I've been wrong plenty. But I am posting it to point out why some of us get so frustrated with the 20/20 hindsight. If people are going to claim that OU would be several games better this season if only the staff had recruited/signed the players that certain posters wanted, then it's only fair to look at ALL the players, not just the one (or two) who panned out. If we had signed Torres instead of Calixte or Reynolds, plus one or both of the bigs, we would be far worse off than we are now, plus we wouldn't have as many scholarships opening up for next season.

 

[SoonerTraveler]

Thank you for the reality check.

 

[thebigabd]

I am going to make a case for hindsight being FAIR GAME in this context.

We are just fans... We aren't professional coaches, scouts, etc. For pretty much all high school or juco recruits, we haven't even seen them play and don't have the ability to properly assess them in proper context even if we do. It's not up to me, or you, as a fan to decide that. Plenty of people on here thought Miles Reynolds was going to be good, and he can't even play. No different than pointing out the people you are.

Personal Note: Maricevic surprises me the most out of the bunch that I THOUGHT would be good. He is 6'10'' 250, had good numbers on a team with 3 or 4 D1 players on it, 83% free throw shooter which demonstrates skill... but he is either not athletic enough, too slow, etc. I haven't seen him play but I figured he would be a pretty good player. Not great, but a solid 9/6 kinda guy. Maybe he will be next year? Who knows.

I also thought Matt Freeman would be good, like most of the forum, but again, we aren't professionals.... we are just fans.

At the end of the day, the point I am making is that professionals, coaches, scouts, etc should be able to determine who can help the team win at this level. They clearly thought Lazenby, Polla, Freeman, Reynolds, and many others over the years could when in fact they couldn't. Thats all fine and dandy when your 12th man can't play, but when you have a losing record in your league every year it tells me they don't have ENOUGH good players.

So while it is hindsight for us as fans, I am making an argument that a professional should have known within a reasonable margin of error that Mason Jones would have helped OU this year. Or that Bandoo was better than Reynolds... Or that Shakur Juiston (who I also clamored for) was better than Hannes Polla in the same class. He went on to have a great year at UNLV.

The "better off" question needs to go back further. There are lots of guys from the area that have been excellent college players that OU didn't even offer. And instead are taking players who can't play...

OU absolutely would be better off with Shakur Juiston... Devonte Bandoo.... Mason Jones... Vladimir Broadziansky... Joseph Acuil.... and lots of other area jucos over the years they don't even recruit.

OU and OSU have traditionally done well recruiting local jucos... neither do it at all anymore... and both programs are struggling. I think in the post Sutton/Sampson eras both coaching staffs don't understand the unique recruiting situation they are in, and that you should absolutely be trying to make yourself the TOP destination for juco transfers from Texas, Iowa, and Kansas.

We've beat this horse dead, but I am happy to keep talking about it though if you want. I won't defend the poor performance of some players... but I wonder if the coaches (or you guys) can defend OU not offering a scholarship to a 6'5'' guard who ended up being the best recruit in your own state... or choosing Reynolds over Bandoo, who is the 2nd best recruit from Kansas. Did the OU coaches look at Mason Jones and say, "nah, he's no good"... Did they even know he existed? They are professionals. They aren't internet posters.

Coaches absolutely shouldn't be reading forums and people saying "hey this guy seems good, per Wichitasooner and bigabd".... But I am pretty stunned when they absolutely whiff on players nearby who they don't even offer scholarships to. Thats why hindsight is FAIR GAME.

 

[skyvue]

Plenty of people on here thought Miles Reynolds was going to be good, and he can't even play.

This is an overstatement, plain and simple, and it's one you've made repeatedly -- relentlessly.

On the season, Reynolds is averaging 1.5 points per game less than Bandoo, and his assists and rebounds are basically identical to Bandoo's. You rushed to trash Reynolds when he scored two points this past weekend, but said not a word when Bandoo scored four points in more than twice as many minutes of action.

Reynolds had a very strong first half of the season; Bandoo has had a stronger second half -- actually, what he had was a strong six-game stretch. Through 10 games of conference play, his season stats were equivalent to Reynolds' and they're barely any better now, even after that six-game run he had.

Like so many, you seem only to care about the conference season, but I'm damn glad Reynolds was here for non-conference play because there are several games we would have lost without his contributions.

So please stop with the anti-Reynolds hyperbole. Before the season, few, if any, expected much from him. Many were taking a wait-and-see attitude but plenty of posters were denigrating both him and Calixte. So I would say both have exceeded the expectations of many experts on this board. Have they been all-conference caliber? Not by a long shot, but "can't play" is an overstatement and an insult to two young men who don't deserve it.

 

[BoulderSooner]

This is an overstatement, plain and simple, and it's one you've made repeatedly -- relentlessly.

On the season, Reynolds is averaging 1.5 points per game less than Bandoo, and his assists and rebounds are basically identical to Bandoo's. You rushed to trash Reynolds when he scored two points this past weekend, but said not a word when Bandoo scored four points in more than twice as many minutes of action.

Reynolds had a very strong first half of the season; Bandoo has had a stronger second half -- actually, what he had was a strong six-game stretch. Through 10 games of conference play, his season stats were equivalent to Reynolds' and they're barely any better now, even after that six-game run he had.

Like so many, you seem only to care about the conference season, but I'm damn glad Reynolds was here for non-conference play because there are several games we would have lost without his contributions.

So please stop with the anti-Reynolds hyperbole. Before the season, few, if any, expected much from him. Many were taking a wait-and-see attitude but plenty of posters were denigrating both him and Calixte. So I would say both have exceeded the expectations of many experts on this board. Have they been all-conference caliber? Not by a long shot, but "can't play" is an overstatement and an insult to two young men who don't deserve it.

thank you there are several games in the non-con that we lose with out reynonlds period

 

[sheepdogs1]

This is an overstatement, plain and simple, and it's one you've made repeatedly -- relentlessly.

On the season, Reynolds is averaging 1.5 points per game less than Bandoo, and his assists and rebounds are basically identical to Bandoo's. You rushed to trash Reynolds when he scored two points this past weekend, but said not a word when Bandoo scored four points in more than twice as many minutes of action.

Reynolds had a very strong first half of the season; Bandoo has had a stronger second half -- actually, what he had was a strong six-game stretch. Through 10 games of conference play, his season stats were equivalent to Reynolds' and they're barely any better now, even after that six-game run he had.

Like so many, you seem only to care about the conference season, but I'm damn glad Reynolds was here for non-conference play because there are several games we would have lost without his contributions.

So please stop with the anti-Reynolds hyperbole. Before the season, few, if any, expected much from him. Many were taking a wait-and-see attitude but plenty of posters were denigrating both him and Calixte. So I would say both have exceeded the expectations of many experts on this board. Have they been all-conference caliber? Not by a long shot, but "can't play" is an overstatement and an insult to two young men who don't deserve it.

It's more than about points. There is a difference between scoring points in a blow out win, blowout loss and points scored in a closely held game. None of us, for obvious reasons, have that innate ability to know, as it is pure conjecture. What we can tell is if a shooting percentage, given the shots taken, is a relatively good one or not.

 

[WichitaSooner]

It's more than about points. There is a difference between scoring points in a blow out win, blowout loss and points scored in a closely held game. None of us, for obvious reasons, have that innate ability to know, as it is pure conjecture. What we can tell is if a shooting percentage, given the shots taken, is a relatively good one or not.

Fair point, but it's also fair to point out that Reynolds has continued to play good defense even as his offense has gone away. I don't watch enough of Bandoo to know how he compares on that end of the floor, but I know that OU's coaches consistently talk about how much Reynolds helps on the defensive end. Look, I will be honest -- I cringe whenever Reynolds tries to drive or shoot these days, and would feel much better if this were football and we could only play him on defense. But everyone on this board is smart enough to know that defense is critical, especially after what we saw last season. And the players and coaches also talk a lot about the overall energy that Reynolds brings to practice and games. There is value to that, even if it can't be quantified. I don't know how likely it is that Bandoo would have provided those intangibles coming in as a guy with no D-1 experience. I don't think people who would prefer Bandoo are crazy, by any means, but I also don't think it is as clear cut as some are suggesting. There is an undeniable tendency for all of us (myself included) to fall in love with players on other teams, while finding every flaw and nitpicking our guys. It's human nature.

 

[sheepdogs1]

Fair point, but it's also fair to point out that Reynolds has continued to play good defense even as his offense has gone away. I don't watch enough of Bandoo to know how he compares on that end of the floor, but I know that OU's coaches consistently talk about how much Reynolds helps on the defensive end. Look, I will be honest -- I cringe whenever Reynolds tries to drive or shoot these days, and would feel much better if this were football and we could only play him on defense. But everyone on this board is smart enough to know that defense is critical, especially after what we saw last season. And the players and coaches also talk a lot about the overall energy that Reynolds brings to practice and games. There is value to that, even if it can't be quantified. I don't know how likely it is that Bandoo would have provided those intangibles coming in as a guy with no D-1 experience. I don't think people who would prefer Bandoo are crazy, by any means, but I also don't think it is as clear cut as some are suggesting. There is an undeniable tendency for all of us (myself included) to fall in love with players on other teams, while finding every flaw and nitpicking our guys. It's human nature.

I understand that defense has its place and more, but the reason why I focused purely on scoring is because it seemed to be what the conversation was centered about.

 

[thebigabd]

This is an overstatement, plain and simple, and it's one you've made repeatedly -- relentlessly.

On the season, Reynolds is averaging 1.5 points per game less than Bandoo, and his assists and rebounds are basically identical to Bandoo's. You rushed to trash Reynolds when he scored two points this past weekend, but said not a word when Bandoo scored four points in more than twice as many minutes of action.

Reynolds had a very strong first half of the season; Bandoo has had a stronger second half -- actually, what he had was a strong six-game stretch. Through 10 games of conference play, his season stats were equivalent to Reynolds' and they're barely any better now, even after that six-game run he had.

Like so many, you seem only to care about the conference season, but I'm damn glad Reynolds was here for non-conference play because there are several games we would have lost without his contributions.

So please stop with the anti-Reynolds hyperbole. Before the season, few, if any, expected much from him. Many were taking a wait-and-see attitude but plenty of posters were denigrating both him and Calixte. So I would say both have exceeded the expectations of many experts on this board. Have they been all-conference caliber? Not by a long shot, but "can't play" is an overstatement and an insult to two young men who don't deserve it.

The context is extremely important. Reynolds has been playing D1 basketball for 5 years. If Bandoo were a true freshman scoring 18 against Texas, 22 against WVU, 19 against Oklahoma, 25 in his second game ever, 15 against KSU, etc... The hype would be through the roof. He's not a true freshman, but this is his first season of D1 basketball.

Look at the hype on Bienemy... he averages less than Miles Reynolds, and nobody would say Reynolds is better because they would understand the context. Bienemy is going to have a fantastic career, book it. He will leave as one of those "favorite Sooner" guys after 4 years if I am correct about it.

Bandoo is primed to be a very good player for them next year, and a big part of their success in big 12 play this year.

That being said, I can make that case without being insulting to Reynolds. You are right about that.

I don't think people who would prefer Bandoo are crazy, by any means, but I also don't think it is as clear cut as some are suggesting.

Above post addresses that.

 

[Price is Right]

I am going to make a case for hindsight being FAIR GAME in this context.

We are just fans... We aren't professional coaches, scouts, etc. For pretty much all high school or juco recruits, we haven't even seen them play and don't have the ability to properly assess them in proper context even if we do. It's not up to me, or you, as a fan to decide that. Plenty of people on here thought Miles Reynolds was going to be good, and he can't even play. No different than pointing out the people you are.

Personal Note: Maricevic surprises me the most out of the bunch that I THOUGHT would be good. He is 6'10'' 250, had good numbers on a team with 3 or 4 D1 players on it, 83% free throw shooter which demonstrates skill... but he is either not athletic enough, too slow, etc. I haven't seen him play but I figured he would be a pretty good player. Not great, but a solid 9/6 kinda guy. Maybe he will be next year? Who knows.

I also thought Matt Freeman would be good, like most of the forum, but again, we aren't professionals.... we are just fans.

At the end of the day, the point I am making is that professionals, coaches, scouts, etc should be able to determine who can help the team win at this level. They clearly thought Lazenby, Polla, Freeman, Reynolds, and many others over the years could when in fact they couldn't. Thats all fine and dandy when your 12th man can't play, but when you have a losing record in your league every year it tells me they don't have ENOUGH good players.

So while it is hindsight for us as fans, I am making an argument that a professional should have known within a reasonable margin of error that Mason Jones would have helped OU this year. Or that Bandoo was better than Reynolds... Or that Shakur Juiston (who I also clamored for) was better than Hannes Polla in the same class. He went on to have a great year at UNLV.

The "better off" question needs to go back further. There are lots of guys from the area that have been excellent college players that OU didn't even offer. And instead are taking players who can't play...

OU absolutely would be better off with Shakur Juiston... Devonte Bandoo.... Mason Jones... Vladimir Broadziansky... Joseph Acuil.... and lots of other area jucos over the years they don't even recruit.

OU and OSU have traditionally done well recruiting local jucos... neither do it at all anymore... and both programs are struggling. I think in the post Sutton/Sampson eras both coaching staffs don't understand the unique recruiting situation they are in, and that you should absolutely be trying to make yourself the TOP destination for juco transfers from Texas, Iowa, and Kansas.

We've beat this horse dead, but I am happy to keep talking about it though if you want. I won't defend the poor performance of some players... but I wonder if the coaches (or you guys) can defend OU not offering a scholarship to a 6'5'' guard who ended up being the best recruit in your own state... or choosing Reynolds over Bandoo, who is the 2nd best recruit from Kansas. Did the OU coaches look at Mason Jones and say, "nah, he's no good"... Did they even know he existed? They are professionals. They aren't internet posters.

Coaches absolutely shouldn't be reading forums and people saying "hey this guy seems good, per Wichitasooner and bigabd".... But I am pretty stunned when they absolutely whiff on players nearby who they don't even offer scholarships to. Thats why hindsight is FAIR GAME.

When I first started paying attention to your posts I thought you were a major troll. What I've come to find over the years however is that people who see things in a diff way and aren't afraid to throw their thoughts out (like you) are often the ones who seem to create the most chatter here, some good, some bad. Right or wrong I appreciate your posts, as I do everyone else here. Dont ever let the negativity change you!

 

[vbdad]

Reynolds isn't a great player but he has been a huge addition to the program. He is a fabulous kid who works his rear end off. I'm glad we were able to only have him the one year.

 

[skyvue]

Reynolds isn't a great player but he has been a huge addition to the program. He is a fabulous kid who works his rear end off. I'm glad we were able to only have him the one year.

Exactly. Thank you.

 

[AdaSooner]

Re: Would we really be better off

When I first started paying attention to your posts I thought you were a major troll. What I've come to find over the years however is that people who see things in a diff way and aren't afraid to throw their thoughts out (like you) are often the ones who seem to create the most chatter here, some good, some bad. Right or wrong I appreciate your posts, as I do everyone else here. Dont ever let the negativity change you!

You described Thebigabd perfectly, Price is Right!

Posters who call him a troll or question if he is an OU fan couldn’t be more wrong. I know the “Big A” personally. Got to know him on the Insider board thirteen or fourteen years ago. I brought him over as a mod when OUHoops was launched in October, 2008. He was an OU student back then.

I have said numerous times over the years that the poster we know as “Thebigabd” is the best thread starter I know or have ever known. His only equal, “BigTime,” is too busy being a medical doctor these days to post much anymore.

The thing that makes “Thebigabd” so good at starting threads and keeping them going is precisely why he is not as popular as he should be with a few posters who find him to be an irritant, not an asset as I see him. He’s good at starting controversial thread topics, and he’s also good at keeping them going page after page after page. Newspapers, television networks and magazines pay a lot of money for guys like him.

If some of you would wake up to the fact that he is a valuable asset to this board, you would embrace him and even thank him, not try to chase him away. I know for a fact that he is an OU fan and a former student. He and his wife (I know her too) left Oklahoma several years ago and moved to Colorado. They moved back a couple of years ago and live in Tulsa now.

This “beating people up” because you don’t agree with them needs to stop. Thebigabd is not the enemy, nor is he a fan of another school. Trust me on that if you have ever even considered trusting me for anything I have done or said the past ten years plus. I wish OUHoops.com had more posters like him. Good posters, and this board definitely has more than its share, are the lifeblood of an online fan board! I hope you will all give some thought to what I have said.

 

[thebigabd]

When I first started paying attention to your posts I thought you were a major troll. What I've come to find over the years however is that people who see things in a diff way and aren't afraid to throw their thoughts out (like you) are often the ones who seem to create the most chatter here, some good, some bad. Right or wrong I appreciate your posts, as I do everyone else here. Dont ever let the negativity change you!

Thanks! I am definitely not a troll, at least not on purpose. I remember awhile back someone, I think it was playmakr, legitimately thought I was a "plant" hired by OUHoops to generate interest in the board, haha.

Hate to tell you, what I post are the actual thoughts in my head. Either that makes me a genius or completely insane. I am ok with either one.

The thing that makes “Thebigabd” so good at starting threads and keeping them going is precisely why he is not as popular as he should be with a few posters who find him to be an irritant, not an asset as I see him. He’s good at starting controversial thread topics, and he’s also good at keeping them going page after page after page. Newspapers, television networks and magazines pay a lot of money for guys like him.

It is advantageous for me in my current profession to think outside the box, state my beliefs, and deliver results.... Funny how that works.

 

[CoachTalk]

Thanks! I am definitely not a troll, at least not on purpose. I remember awhile back someone, I think it was playmakr, legitimately thought I was a "plant" hired by OUHoops to generate interest in the board, haha.

Hate to tell you, what I post are the actual thoughts in my head. Either that makes me a genius or completely insane. I am ok with either one.



It is advantageous for me in my current profession to think outside the box, state my beliefs, and deliver results.... Funny how that works.

Enjoy reading. Thanks