A (Hopefully) Constructive “Negative” Post (returning players)

[SoonerDutch]

Cortes has improved. He needs to shoot more 3's IMO.

I think tanner's regression has hurt the team the most. Second, idk how you have Noland not being significantly worse. I think his regression is/was the #2 thing that hurt OU the most. I think he shot 42% from 3 last year and hes 24% this year last i looked. That's awful. And he obviously has his physical limitations bc hes not in shape which kills a lot of other areas for positive contributions. Noland needed to push for a starter role and/or, at worst, be our 6th man off the bench. Sadly, i think he should be passee by multiple guys on the team at this point and should be like a 7-9th guy off the bench .

The Nolan point is fair, especially the criticism about athletic development as a soph. Would lead to more concern about program IMO, if PM is getting “elite” talent at hs (4* or above) but can’t get them ready for the conference slog we might as well move on.

To me it’s easier to mask Nolan with a line-up of Uzan at PG and Sherfield at 2. It’s more clear cut to get Sherfield on the floor at the expense of Nolan as opposed to what we have on roster that’s capable of replacing J Groves.

 

[Dr Sleep]

Great OP. I think Cortes has improved in passing a little. I think he sees the court well. Last year I thought he was playing "sped up" and this year looks more comfortable and thus limiting his bad turnovers. I thought by mid season he would be reminiscent of John Ontjes but he has some more work to do.

 

[steverocks35]

I just don’t see Cortes as a Big 12 caliber player, sorry. I don’t think he has the lateral quickness to defend at a high enough level. You can’t really play a guy much that gets abused on defense. I think he would do well at a mid-major.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Cortes has improved. He needs to shoot more 3's IMO.

I think tanner's regression has hurt the team the most. Second, idk how you have Noland not being significantly worse. I think his regression is/was the #2 thing that hurt OU the most. I think he shot 42% from 3 last year and hes 24% this year last i looked. That's awful. And he obviously has his physical limitations bc hes not in shape which kills a lot of other areas for positive contributions. Noland needed to push for a starter role and/or, at worst, be our 6th man off the bench. Sadly, i think he should be passee by multiple guys on the team at this point and should be like a 7-9th guy off the bench .

It's incredibly disappointing that CJ isn't in better shape. I can't think of many (any?) good guards in the Big 12 who are carrying that much extra weight. And it's not like it is "good" weight that is helping him get to the rim and finish through contact. He is nearing the end of his second season and you can count the number of dunks he has on one hand. If you aren't athletic and explosive, you better be an elite shooter or defender, and he is neither.

 

[StoopsBros]

You can't use a ranking tool that looks at production to make a claim about talent. My argument is that coaching is impacting our talent in a negative manner.

This is just like the OU football fans trying to blame lack of talent for why Tulane nearly beat us two years ago, or why we lost to WVU last year. That isn't a talent issue. That is a coaching, a development, and probably a culture issue.

I said "or the inability to coach/develop the kids you do have issue".

My very basic point was: OU's team is the least productive team in the Big 12 (using the linked site but other sites will show the same). Dead last. Is some of that the talent on the roster? Yes. Is some of that coaching/development? Yes. It can be both. It is both. You need a lot of things to go wrong to get to where OU's program currently is.

I'm certainly not trying to make excuses for Moser. As much as I like him and want him to succeed, this is his mess. Coaching, talent, culture, everything falls on him. I do, very much, think OU's at a talent deficit every time they play a Big 12 team. I don't need to see high school rankings. I have eyes. Moser has now failed two offseasons in a row in his attempts to assemble a successful Big 12 roster. If he does it again, OU will be looking for another head coach. But yeah, of freaking course, he's also failed to coach/develop the kids on the roster. That's clearly evident.

 

[BCSooners]

Would we have been better off keeping Mo Gibson and letting him play PG? Defense wouldn't be any better, for sure, but you have to think the offense would, right?

Gibson
Sherfield
Uzan
Hill
T. Groves

If you granted Gibson to play point you have to take Sherfield out imo.

 

[BoulderSooner]

If you granted Gibson to play point you have to take Sherfield out imo.

correct

 

[OUSKINS]

Wanted to make one thing clear for the record, I do not WANT or HOPE for Moser to be fired after this season. I also don’t want him to mutually part/Notre Dame. I absolutely want him to get another year and see what things look like this time next year. I am not feeling very confident currently and I’m surprised and disappointed in how this season has begun to go off the rails. But I’m still rooting for Moser and I like him personally.

And…. He’s a good basketball coach. His success at Loyola wasn’t a one-year wonder miracle March run. Those were GOOD teams that could compete at a national level. An impressive feat and you can’t do that if you can’t coach. Guy knows ball. Now, whether or not he’s the right fit in Norman, etc etc all still very much up in air, but the man can coach.

It’s also just a year and a half in. There is time here for sure. I’m not giving up and I’m rooting very hard for him to succeed.

There is EVERY reason to be negative about this team, this season, and the current direction. The team is literally getting worse and worse. All just facts. But I’m not yet ready to throw dirt on this regime.

 

[steverocks35]

If the team is “literally getting worse and worse” then that’s a pretty clear indictment of the head coach.

 

[Soonerinkc]

Skins….

No offense but moser is under .600 (.546) overall career.



At Loyola he had 6 out of 10 seasons under .600, 2 really good, 2 21/14 type seasons.

Little Rock 54-34
Ill st 51-67
OU 31-27

I’m not sold he’s a very good coach.

 

[MFDChief]

I don't think Coach K could get this team to win. They look like they have lost the will to fight. Early on they were fighting hard for wins, they just weren't good enough to pull them out. The only way this team can stay close in this league is maximum effort, when you give it and still lose it gets harder and harder to dig deep for that effort.
At the end of the day they just aren't very talented and the blame for that has to fall somewhere. Porter has to upgrade the talent on his roster or his time in Norman is going to be very short. I like him and am pulling for him but if they don't show a marked improvement in year three Joe C. has to start considering a change.

 

[WichitaSooner]

For those pointing to his Loyola tenure … he had a few good teams and two great March runs. There are lots of coaches who have had teams get hot for a couple weeks in March, and it definitely doesn’t mean they are great coaches. Is Turgeon a great coach? He took WSU to the Sweet 16 once, after all. Is Hubert Davis a great coach? His team has dramatically underperformed for the entirety of his two seasons, except one two-week run that was aided by Baylor being injured and getting to play a 15-seed in the Elite Eight. It’s really dangerous to form sweeping conclusions from a small sample size, especially when a coach has been at it for 20 years. I’ll admit I was guilty of assuming that if he could make a deep tourney run without much talent at a mid major, he could do great things at OU. But now having actually watched every second of his 58 games at OU, his weaknesses are obvious.

 

[OUSKINS]

If the team is “literally getting worse and worse” then that’s a pretty clear indictment of the head coach.

Two things can be true at once. Moser is having a bad year; I don’t like much of anything I see and I don’t like the direction. I also don’t think he should be fired.

 

[mict085]

For those pointing to his Loyola tenure … he had a few good teams and two great March runs. There are lots of coaches who have had teams get hot for a couple weeks in March, and it definitely doesn’t mean they are great coaches. Is Turgeon a great coach? He took WSU to the Sweet 16 once, after all. Is Hubert Davis a great coach? His team has dramatically underperformed for the entirety of his two seasons, except one two-week run that was aided by Baylor being injured and getting to play a 15-seed in the Elite Eight. It’s really dangerous to form sweeping conclusions from a small sample size, especially when a coach has been at it for 20 years. I’ll admit I was guilty of assuming that if he could make a deep tourney run without much talent at a mid major, he could do great things at OU. But now having actually watched every second of his 58 games at OU, his weaknesses are obvious.

I completely agree. I wanted moser to succeed and I tried to talk myself into it when he was hired. Unfortunately, I don’t think he will ever be successful at OU. I think it’s over and we’re just waiting until we can afford to make the change.

 

[TINY]

For those pointing to his Loyola tenure … he had a few good teams and two great March runs. There are lots of coaches who have had teams get hot for a couple weeks in March, and it definitely doesn’t mean they are great coaches. Is Turgeon a great coach? He took WSU to the Sweet 16 once, after all. Is Hubert Davis a great coach? His team has dramatically underperformed for the entirety of his two seasons, except one two-week run that was aided by Baylor being injured and getting to play a 15-seed in the Elite Eight. It’s really dangerous to form sweeping conclusions from a small sample size, especially when a coach has been at it for 20 years. I’ll admit I was guilty of assuming that if he could make a deep tourney run without much talent at a mid major, he could do great things at OU. But now having actually watched every second of his 58 games at OU, his weaknesses are obvious.

When you try to downplay his success at loyola, it just makes you sound like a hater. He took loyola as far as Lon could take ou (moser had a final 4 and sweet 16 w beating a 1 seed), and further than ou under Capel. That is a remarkable accomplishment and shows the man can coach. It may not work out here, yet I could make the argument that it is more of an indictment on ou hoops as a program than moser as a coach. I said the same thing about ou under Lon in the final 4-5 years when we weren’t very competitive in the league. Ou hoops program is way behind most of its conference mates.

 

[WichitaSooner]

When you try to downplay his success at loyola, it just makes you sound like a hater. He took loyola as far as Lon could take ou (moser had a final 4 and sweet 16 w beating a 1 seed), and further than ou under Capel. That is a remarkable accomplishment and shows the man can coach. It may not work out here, yet I could make the argument that it is more of an indictment on ou hoops as a program than moser as a coach. I said the same thing about ou under Lon in the final 4-5 years when we weren’t very competitive in the league. Ou hoops program is way behind most of its conference mates.

So even though I was in favor of the hire, I am a hater? Interesting. I’d say that when you focus on two seasons in a very long coaching career, you’re the one who isn’t being objective. Lon had many good years at many different schools, which makes him much different than Moser. Further distinguishing them is the fact that Lon had success at OU and Moser hasn’t. No question Lon’s last five years weren’t as good as his first five, or as good as we would have preferred, but even in that span, he missed the tourney once. Moser will accomplish that lowlight twice in his first two season.

And for all the talk about how we were behind our peers … our league record wasn’t good, and by that metric you can say we lagged behind a lot of programs in the conference. But we sure as heck made the tournament more than most teams not named Kansas.

 

[NY Soonerfan]

To me, to bring it down to the bottom level, we have a mid-major coach who has recruited mid-major talent. It's as simple as that. There's really no one on this team that would be a starter on a power-5 tournament kind of team. There are a few who would be contributors, but I don't really see a starter. We have countless role players asked/trying to be starters. It's really no surprise we are what we are.

And, to further exacerbate the problem, we live in a day and age where instant turnarounds are practically the norm, not the exception. So, point being, there's really no excuse for two down years in a row, especially when the second year is nothing short of an abomination and several giant steps backwards.

This ND talk to me is comical; they had a pillar of consistency in Mike Brey for the better part of two decades. Why in the wide wide world would they want PM? Program ties or not.

To me, the end of the season is the perfect time to make a change so the new regime is in place for the conference switch in the next few years. If we endure another lost season (and let's be honest, there's no real reason to expect otherwise) next year and then make a change, that timing is a lot worse, IMO.

 

[TINY]

So even though I was in favor of the hire, I am a hater? Interesting. I’d say that when you focus on two seasons in a very long coaching career, you’re the one who isn’t being objective. Lon had many good years at many different schools, which makes him much different than Moser. Further distinguishing them is the fact that Lon had success at OU and Moser hasn’t. No question Lon’s last five years weren’t as good as his first five, or as good as we would have preferred, but even in that span, he missed the tourney once. Moser will accomplish that lowlight twice in his first two season.

And for all the talk about how we were behind our peers … our league record wasn’t good, and by that metric you can say we lagged behind a lot of programs in the conference. But we sure as heck made the tournament more than most teams not named Kansas.

Hard to believe you were in favor of the hire when you already jumping ship after 1 disappointing season in year 2 of a complete rebuild. Last year was a success for year 1 of a complete rebuild. He did way better year 1 than BV did in a much more difficult situation. This year is disappointing. We will see how he does over next couple years.

Most important factors of an elite program:

1. Bagmen/nil
2. Fan support
3. Arena
4. Facilities

Where does ou rank right now in the big12 in all of these?

1. 7-8
2. 10
3. 10
4. 4-5

This impacted Lon towards the end and the gap has only widened since he left.

 

[steverocks35]

Hard to believe you were in favor of the hire when you already jumping ship after 1 disappointing season. Last year was a success for year 1 in a complete rebuild in year 2 of a complete rebuild. He did way better year 1 than BV did in a much more difficult situation. This year is disappointing. We will see how he does over next couple years.

Most important factors of an elite program:

1. Bagmen/nil
2. Fan support
3. Arena
4. Facilities

Where does ou rank right now in the big12 in all of these?

1. 7-8
2. 10
3. 10
4. 4-5

This impacted Lon towards the end and the gap has only widened since he left.

The university controls 3 and 4 (and possibly 1). If they take care of that then 2 will probably follow.

 

[Stikboy]

To me, to bring it down to the bottom level, we have a mid-major coach who has recruited mid-major talent. It's as simple as that. There's really no one on this team that would be a starter on a power-5 tournament kind of team. There are a few who would be contributors, but I don't really see a starter. We have countless role players asked/trying to be starters. It's really no surprise we are what we are.

And, to further exacerbate the problem, we live in a day and age where instant turnarounds are practically the norm, not the exception. So, point being, there's really no excuse for two down years in a row, especially when the second year is nothing short of an abomination and several giant steps backwards.

This ND talk to me is comical; they had a pillar of consistency in Mike Brey for the better part of two decades. Why in the wide wide world would they want PM? Program ties or not.

To me, the end of the season is the perfect time to make a change so the new regime is in place for the conference switch in the next few years. If we endure another lost season (and let's be honest, there's no real reason to expect otherwise) next year and then make a change, that timing is a lot worse, IMO.

This. I was worried about recruiting, but was hopeful as was everybody. Yes, OU got two top 100 guys last year and have signed two this year. The issue is, they are all guards. But see here's where it really goes awry for me. Seeing what he did at Loyola, I thought he'd take a better athlete/talent starting point(our recruits) and be able to develop them as obviously he didn't recruit the same type guys at Loyola. He seemingly coached/squeezed blood out of a turnip there. The development is my biggest disappointment. Even though after this latest signing period he's signed 4 highly rated guys, nobody is really developing and the fact that his portal recruiting has been a "miss" overall is killing us. I also wonder if Moser has the ability to recruit a big at this level, or better yet does he even know what kind of big to go after at this level. The Groves brothers Kansas NCAA tournament hysteria looks very silly almost two years in hindsight. I would hope Moser and co did more DD on them besides just that one game, but after seeing both their bodies of work it actually does appear that those guys were able to ride that wave to a scholly at OU. I think again Moser underestimated the conference and thought he could make it work. Boy is he learning the hard way. That and the misfortune of all the NIL ridiculousness exploding in everyone's face. He's probably not used to having to pay high profile recruits(been at Loyola) whereas some of our conference mates already had it perfected as well as much of the rest of the college basketball world.

To borrow an overused statement i've seen on here a bunch, I just think he's a G5 coach. I've come around to thinking that also. Nothing wrong with that, I like him. I was VERY excited about his hiring. I just think he'd be better off back in the MV or somewhere like that. OU needs a coach and staff that can get players across the spectrum of positions, develop, then have a good system obviously. This uber slow, painful to watch offense was something I feared from the beginning, but was willing to accept if we won. Well... That combined with our extreme lack of athleticism makes for a horrible product to watch, and we aren't winning either. Anyway if it keeps going the way it is hopefully we can get a good up and comer. KSU, ISU, did it. Nobody can fault Joe C for making this hire originally, seeing where Moser's stock was. But he really needs to do his homework on this next one, especially seeing what's transpired the last two years...