A (Hopefully) Constructive “Negative” Post (returning players)

[TINY]

The university controls 3 and 4 (and possibly 1). If they take care of that then 2 will probably follow.

I believe the fans control their own destiny in college sports (over a large sample size) but that is mostly irrelevant to the point I am trying to make. The program, as it sits right now, is bottom tier (or rock bottom) in almost every competitive aspect when compared to the rest of the conference. The results on the court have mirrored this over the past 6-7 years.

 

[BCSooners]

Hard to believe you were in favor of the hire when you already jumping ship after 1 disappointing season in year 2 of a complete rebuild. Last year was a success for year 1 of a complete rebuild. He did way better year 1 than BV did in a much more difficult situation. This year is disappointing. We will see how he does over next couple years.

Most important factors of an elite program:

1. Bagmen/nil
2. Fan support
3. Arena
4. Facilities

Where does ou rank right now in the big12 in all of these?

1. 7-8
2. 10
3. 10
4. 4-5

This impacted Lon towards the end and the gap has only widened since he left.

You think PM had a tougher year 1 situation than BV?

 

[TINY]

You think PM had a tougher year 1 situation than BV?

Yeah and it isn’t even close. Both teams faced tremendous attrition but ou is as elite a football program as there is in the country. BV joined the program prior to late signing day, moser didn’t. Ou hoops is roughly 7-8 in the big12. It’s far easier to rebuild ou football. Stoops won the natty in year 2.

 

[skyvue]

Last year was a success for year 1 of a complete rebuild.

How was it a complete rebuild? Moser had three of five returning starters on the team; that often happens in college hoops--it hardly amounts to an empty cupboard. And there were a slew of guys who were had not yet transferred when he was hired. I get that it's hard to hold an incoming coach responsible for players who leave, but if he'd even managed to retain just Manek or Williams--both of whom left after, not before, he was hired--we'd have been in the tourney last year. If he'd retained both, we'd have been pretty darned good.

Then entering this year, he loses two of those three starters to the portal, all the while continuing struggling to bring in solid guys via the portal. Sherfield is his only true portal win in two years, and even he is flawed.

 

[steverocks35]

Yeah and it isn’t even close. Both teams faced tremendous attrition but ou is as elite a football program as there is in the country. BV joined the program prior to late signing day, moser didn’t. Ou hoops is roughly 7-8 in the big12. It’s far easier to rebuild ou football. Stoops won the natty in year 2.

This isn't close to true. You can rebuild a basketball team by signing one or two elite players.

 

[BCSooners]

Yeah and it isn’t even close. Both teams faced tremendous attrition but ou is as elite a football program as there is in the country. BV joined the program prior to late signing day, moser didn’t. Ou hoops is roughly 7-8 in the big12. It’s far easier to rebuild ou football. Stoops won the natty in year 2.

We aren't talking about year 2, we're talking about year 1. And if you want to talk about year 2 then I'll say OU is worse than last year. It's way easier to pick up a system as a 1st year transfer and play as a freshmen in basketball than football. Also PM was able to have 3 returning starters & the future POY didn't leave. Also basketball didn't need and go through a culture change, it honestly looks like it has gotten worse.

But hey apparently it isn't even close.

 

[sooner333]

How was it a complete rebuild? Moser had three of five returning starters on the team; that often happens in college hoops--it hardly amounts to an empty cupboard. And there were a slew of guys who were had not yet transferred when he was hired. I get that it's hard to hold an incoming coach responsible for players who leave, but if he'd even managed to retain just Manek or Williams--both of whom left after, not before, he was hired--we'd have been in the tourney last year. If he'd retained both, we'd have been pretty darned good.

Then entering this year, he loses two of those three starters to the portal, all the while continuing struggling to bring in solid guys via the portal. Sherfield is his only true portal win in two years, and even he is flawed.

I think Austin Reaves probably was the difference in making the tournament and not making it (possibly by a large margin) in his last year and would have been in the year before (but for the cancellation of the tournament). BUT, that's also kind of to your point. One guy can make a huge difference. Two pretty good guys also can. We got one pretty good guy this year but struck out so far on Bamisile.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Hard to believe you were in favor of the hire when you already jumping ship after 1 disappointing season in year 2 of a complete rebuild. Last year was a success for year 1 of a complete rebuild. He did way better year 1 than BV did in a much more difficult situation. This year is disappointing. We will see how he does over next couple years.

Most important factors of an elite program:

1. Bagmen/nil
2. Fan support
3. Arena
4. Facilities

Where does ou rank right now in the big12 in all of these?

1. 7-8
2. 10
3. 10
4. 4-5

This impacted Lon towards the end and the gap has only widened since he left.

Go back and read my posts if you are skeptical. He was my preferred choice of all the realistic names floated at the time.

It's a joke to call it a complete rebuild. KSU, ISU, and others faced complete rebuilds. We needed to find some good pieces to compliment the returning players and the incoming freshmen. But more to the point, the issues we had last year made me very concerned, more than even the win-loss record. Turnovers and execution are things that can be coached even on teams lacking elite talent. He failed miserably on both fronts. The fact that this year's team is going to have a worse record, despite having much better point guard play and a wealth of experience, is alarming.

And while it impacted Lon, there is a bi difference between being an 8-seed, comfortably in the tourney, and being a team that is unlikely to even match last year's NIT appearance.

 

[hoopsaustin]

This. I was worried about recruiting, but was hopeful as was everybody. Yes, OU got two top 100 guys last year and have signed two this year. The issue is, they are all guards. But see here's where it really goes awry for me. Seeing what he did at Loyola, I thought he'd take a better athlete/talent starting point(our recruits) and be able to develop them as obviously he didn't recruit the same type guys at Loyola. He seemingly coached/squeezed blood out of a turnip there. The development is my biggest disappointment. Even though after this latest signing period he's signed 4 highly rated guys, nobody is really developing and the fact that his portal recruiting has been a "miss" overall is killing us. I also wonder if Moser has the ability to recruit a big at this level, or better yet does he even know what kind of big to go after at this level. The Groves brothers Kansas NCAA tournament hysteria looks very silly almost two years in hindsight. I would hope Moser and co did more DD on them besides just that one game, but after seeing both their bodies of work it actually does appear that those guys were able to ride that wave to a scholly at OU. I think again Moser underestimated the conference and thought he could make it work. Boy is he learning the hard way. That and the misfortune of all the NIL ridiculousness exploding in everyone's face. He's probably not used to having to pay high profile recruits(been at Loyola) whereas some of our conference mates already had it perfected as well as much of the rest of the college basketball world.

To borrow an overused statement i've seen on here a bunch, I just think he's a G5 coach. I've come around to thinking that also. Nothing wrong with that, I like him. I was VERY excited about his hiring. I just think he'd be better off back in the MV or somewhere like that. OU needs a coach and staff that can get players across the spectrum of positions, develop, then have a good system obviously. This uber slow, painful to watch offense was something I feared from the beginning, but was willing to accept if we won. Well... That combined with our extreme lack of athleticism makes for a horrible product to watch, and we aren't winning either. Anyway if it keeps going the way it is hopefully we can get a good up and comer. KSU, ISU, did it. Nobody can fault Joe C for making this hire originally, seeing where Moser's stock was. But he really needs to do his homework on this next one, especially seeing what's transpired the last two years...

What kills PM for me, is that the team is not very disciplined. We get killed on the O glass every night seemingly. Reblunding is like 90% effort. We don't do it. I thought PM was going to KILL the fundamentals area..i guess he is, but in a BAD way.

 

[sooner333]

What kills PM for me, is that the team is not very disciplined. We get killed on the O glass every night seemingly. Reblunding is like 90% effort. We don't do it. I thought PM was going to KILL the fundamentals area..i guess he is, but in a BAD way.

Porter's teams give up offensive rebounds in order to get back on defense. This has been a consistent feature of his teams throughout his coaching. According to KenPom's stats, his teams have never been better than about average in offensive rebounds, and his Final Four team was among the worst in the nation. I don't consider this to be a problem on its own, but it seems more problematic when the transition defense hasn't been clicking.

 

[hoopsaustin]

Porter's teams give up offensive rebounds in order to get back on defense. This has been a consistent feature of his teams throughout his coaching. According to KenPom's stats, his teams have never been better than about average in offensive rebounds, and his Final Four team was among the worst in the nation. I don't consider this to be a problem on its own, but it seems more problematic when the transition defense hasn't been clicking.

Sorry i phrased that backwards/weirdly, i meant we GIVE up Off boards like crazy. I understand we also don't crash the boards. I think PM is too extreme in not doing that also

 

[SoonerDutch]

I believe the fans control their own destiny in college sports (over a large sample size) but that is mostly irrelevant to the point I am trying to make. The program, as it sits right now, is bottom tier (or rock bottom) in almost every competitive aspect when compared to the rest of the conference. The results on the court have mirrored this over the past 6-7 years.

I am also frustrated, especially with this season, and have questions about long-term viability of Moser but do think the emergence of the Big 12 as the premier basketball conference over the past decade makes the discussion even more complicated. My long-term goal for the program is no truly awful (consistently top 50 in KenPom) teams with an “elite” squad (top 16 or better) every recruiting cycle. OU hasn’t had that elite squad since the 2014 - 2016 run (although Trey’s team kind of met that standard despite the collapse) and mostly avoided that truly awful team (maybe 2017 & this team is quickly falling apart but still fairly high on KenPom metrics).

 

[sooner333]

Sorry i phrased that backwards/weirdly, i meant we GIVE up Off boards like crazy. I understand we also don't crash the boards. I think PM is too extreme in not doing that also

That's more fair. Oddly we are ahead of TCU and Kansas State in conference games in defensive rebounding % (and also Texas Tech). But more anecdotally, it does seem like when we get killed on the glass, we really get killed...and at inopportune times.

PM's Sweet 16 team was third in the nation in defensive rebounding % and the season after the Final Four run was first. So this doesn't seem like a systematic thing at all, but more of a roster construction issue (or desire).

 

[WichitaSooner]

That's more fair. Oddly we are ahead of TCU and Kansas State in conference games in defensive rebounding % (and also Texas Tech). But more anecdotally, it does seem like when we get killed on the glass, we really get killed...and at inopportune times.

PM's Sweet 16 team was third in the nation in defensive rebounding % and the season after the Final Four run was first. So this doesn't seem like a systematic thing at all, but more of a roster construction issue (or desire).

The Valley has no bigs. Even when the league was pretty good 10 years ago, the thing separating it from the P5 was the lack of good post players. This seems like another thing Moser hasn't adjusted to at this level. And if it is effort, that, too, falls on him. We all can think of coaches who simply don't tolerate a lack of effort.

 

[sooner333]

The Valley has no bigs. Even when the league was pretty good 10 years ago, the thing separating it from the P5 was the lack of good post players. This seems like another thing Moser hasn't adjusted to at this level. And if it is effort, that, too, falls on him. We all can think of coaches who simply don't tolerate a lack of effort.

Overall—from a national ranking perspective—our defensive rebounding numbers have been better than Kruger, about the same as Capel’s last three years (including Elite 8 run) and worse than his first two years, and worse than most of Sampson’s years (2004 and 1997 as outliers). Also notable that offensive rebounding % has gone down over the years (meaning defensive rebounding % has gone up%).

Also worth noting that Houston this year ranks 206 in defensive rebounding and OU is 127.

 

[TINY]

This isn't close to true. You can rebuild a basketball team by signing one or two elite players.

What elite players? They signed already by the time moser took over. The elite transfers were getting 6 figures from Kansas, texas, et al. You can’t just drive up to the elite player grocery store and pick 1 out. They are very scarce resources and we do not put ourselves in position to sign them from a program perspective.

 

[WichitaSooner]

What elite players? They signed already by the time moser took over. The elite transfers were getting 6 figures from Kansas, texas, et al. You can’t just drive up to the elite player grocery store and pick 1 out. They are very scarce resources and we do not put ourselves in position to sign them from a program perspective.

This seems to be your built-in excuse -- every transfer who could legitimately help won't come play for us because they are getting paid big bucks. Again, show me where KSU and ISU are paying insane amounts. This early in the NIL game, I'd be shocked if most schools had collectives in place to generate that kind of money. Look at some of the schools that Boeheim called out (ridiculously, IMHO) the other day. Do Pitt and Wake really have tons of donors willing to fund mega-deals for their basketball players? There are players out there each year who aren't huge names, but they can be difference makers if you identify them and are the right fit.

 

[TINY]

How was it a complete rebuild? Moser had three of five returning starters on the team; that often happens in college hoops--it hardly amounts to an empty cupboard. And there were a slew of guys who were had not yet transferred when he was hired. I get that it's hard to hold an incoming coach responsible for players who leave, but if he'd even managed to retain just Manek or Williams--both of whom left after, not before, he was hired--we'd have been in the tourney last year. If he'd retained both, we'd have been pretty darned good.

Then entering this year, he loses two of those three starters to the portal, all the while continuing struggling to bring in solid guys via the portal. Sherfield is his only true portal win in two years, and even he is flawed.

Well because he quite literally had to rebuild 75% of the roster. We didn’t have 3 returning starters. The players with the most starts were Manek, reeves, EJ, harmon. Mo and hill didn’t start as many games as the other 4. So we only returned 2 starters, at best. Either way, he had to cobble together the rest of the roster with very little time.

 

[steverocks35]

What elite players? They signed already by the time moser took over. The elite transfers were getting 6 figures from Kansas, texas, et al. You can’t just drive up to the elite player grocery store and pick 1 out. They are very scarce resources and we do not put ourselves in position to sign them from a program perspective.

My point is that a football rebuild requires many players and any one area that is lacking can kill the team. Oh you have good skill position players but your offensive line sucks? Welcome to mediocrity.

A basketball rebuild can literally be 1 guy. (See: Griffin, Blake)

 

[steverocks35]

Well because he quite literally had to rebuild 75% of the roster. We didn’t have 3 returning starters. The players with the most starts were Manek, reeves, hill, harmon. Mo and EJ didn’t start as many games as the other 4. So we only returned 2 starters, maybe 2.5. Either way, he had to cobble together the rest of the roster with very little time.

What about this year? Did he not have any time to build the roster for this year's team?