A (Hopefully) Constructive “Negative” Post (returning players)

[MFDChief]

What about this year? Did he not have any time to build the roster for this year's team?

I think he put all his eggs in the Groves basket and it has bitten him. Wonder how good this team would be with Taj Grey and Kevin Bookout in the middle. Who knows though, the league is tough this year.

 

[steverocks35]

I think he put all his eggs in the Groves basket and it has bitten him. Wonder how good this team would be with Taj Grey and Kevin Bookout in the middle. Who knows though, the league is tough this year.

Then I question his judgment. Most of us could see that they lack the athleticism to be starters in the Big 12.

 

[WichitaSooner]

What about this year? Did he not have any time to build the roster for this year's team?

Bingo. Texas has one guy left on the roster from two years ago. I just don’t get why some people seem so unwilling to recognize that major roster turnover is the norm these days, and not just for new coaches.

 

[skyvue]

Well because he quite literally had to rebuild 75% of the roster. We didn’t have 3 returning starters. The players with the most starts were Manek, reeves, EJ, harmon. Mo and hill didn’t start as many games as the other 4. So we only returned 2 starters, at best. Either way, he had to cobble together the rest of the roster with very little time.

Below are those players' stats for starts and minutes played in 2021.

Reaves--25 starts, 34 minutes per game
Harmon--23 starts, 30 minutes per game
Harkless--17 starts, 29 minutes per game
Gibson--15 starts, 27 minutes per game
Manek--20 starts, 25 minutes per game
Hill--5 starts, 17 minutes per game

You are correct, strictly speaking (except about Hill, which we both got wrong), but given their starts and minutes played, I think it's fair to consider Harkless and Gibson starters. Less so for Hill, but he was a junior in Mosers' first season and had seen good minutes the season before, so he was a player of value at the time, too.

And it's worth remembering that only Reaves had announced he was leaving prior to Moser's hiring. So when (as often happens) people say Kruger left the cupboard bare, it's not accurate. The cupboard had plenty of players in it (including some not cited above); it's just that many of them left after Moser was hired. Does that mean that they didn't view Moser as a strong hire? One would have to ask each player that, but I think player retention is a key factor in a new coach's early success and I would be pleased and impressed by any coach who was able to retain the majority of the talent that was already on campus. I hope our new coach, if in fact we're going to have one soon, can achieve that.

 

[MFDChief]

Then I question his judgment. Most of us could see that they lack the athleticism to be starters in the Big 12.

Exactly, I think they are complimentary pieces on a good team but not starters in a league like this. Porter scouted them and signed them so that is on him.

 

[TINY]

I hope our new coach, if in fact we're going to have one soon, can achieve that.

I hope so too but it is highly unlikely. We will probably get to keep the guys no one else wants though. We can say goodbye to all the high school talent he brought in.

 

[WichitaSooner]

I hope so too but it is highly unlikely. We will probably get to keep the guys no one else wants though. We can say goodbye to all the high school talent he brought in.

It would suck to lose Cooper and Cole, but in the big picture, finding the right coach is more important than two kids who have yet to play a college game and may or may not prove to be studs. There is no guarantee they would go elsewhere if this move happens, and if they do, a new coach would have a chance to bring in replacements through the portal or the high school ranks.

 

[skyvue]

I'll say this: All these rumors are doing Moser--and our program--no favors if he's not seeking the ND job or if he is and they hire someone else.

 

[Abe]

Agree concerning NIL. From meetings I have been in we could not compete for the elite players the last 2 years due to lack of $$.This year is yet to play out.

 

[WTSooner]

Agree concerning NIL. From meetings I have been in we could not compete for the elite players the last 2 years due to lack of $$.This year is yet to play out.

Meetings?

What elite players did KSU sign? ISU? TCU?

 

[TEvans4Three]

And it's worth remembering that only Reaves had announced he was leaving prior to Moser's hiring. So when (as often happens) people say Kruger left the cupboard bare, it's not accurate. The cupboard had plenty of players in it (including some not cited above); it's just that many of them left after Moser was hired. Does that mean that they didn't view Moser as a strong hire? One would have to ask each player that, but I think player retention is a key factor in a new coach's early success and I would be pleased and impressed by any coach who was able to retain the majority of the talent that was already on campus. I hope our new coach, if in fact we're going to have one soon, can achieve that.

According to Moser, in a podcast interview in 2021 (on Manek):

"He had 9 toes out. He was just in his mind." Said the other players he didn't get a real chance to try and keep here. (Porter is fully aware of what OU lost to the portal last year)

So take that for what it is worth.

 

[TEvans4Three]

Also, timeline:

Lon Kruger announces retirement: Mar 26
De'Vion Harmon NBA Draft entry: Mar 26
Austin Reaves NBA Draft entry: Mar 31
Victor Iwuakor portal entry: Apr 1
Brady Manek portal entry: Apr 2
Porter Moser hired as HC: Apr 3
De'Vion Harmon portal entry: Apr 15
Alondes Williams portal entry: Apr 15
Kur Kuath portal and NBA Draft entry: Apr 19

It is hard to say that he actually had a cupboard in hand when taking the job. Not to mention any time at all to prevent the poach when everything was set in motion.

So yes, Lon did leave the cupboard pretty bare with his actions. Maybe he could have kept Kur based on that timeline? But with all those feet int he water, you are weeks behind everyone else in a recruiting pitch.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Also, timeline:

Lon Kruger announces retirement: Mar 26
De'Vion Harmon NBA Draft entry: Mar 26
Austin Reaves NBA Draft entry: Mar 31
Alondes Williams portal entry: May 21
Victor Iwuakor portal entry: Apr 1
Brady Manek portal entry: Apr 2
Porter Moser hired as HC: Apr 3
De'Vion Harmon portal entry: Apr 15
Kur Kuath portal and NBA Draft entry: Apr 19

It is hard to say that he actually had a cupboard in hand when taking the job. Not to mention any time at all to prevent the poach when everything was set in motion.

So yes, Lon did leave the cupboard pretty bare with his actions. Maybe he could have kept Kur based on that timeline? But with all those feet int he water, you are weeks behind everyone else in a recruiting pitch.

So this makes him different than other coaches how, exactly?? It’s not like most programs fire their coaches or have someone retire/leave for another job during the season. Lon retired three days after the season ended, so I’m not sure what you mean when you comment on his “actions.” And to the extent some programs can hire their new coach a couple weeks earlier, it’s because they failed to make the tournament … which proves the point that we were in better shape than most because we were playing in late March.

Think of it this way: would you rather be hired at KSU or ISU and have two extra weeks but have to inherit teams that were beyond terrible (and had even more of a roster turnover), or be hired at OU two weeks later and know that even with the transfers of a few guys, you still had three very important rotation players/starters coming back. No one is suggesting he should have been able to lead us to the FF last year. But expecting an NCAA bid was reasonable, and should have been the bare minimum expected this season.

 

[TEvans4Three]

So this makes him different than other coaches how, exactly?? It’s not like most programs fire their coaches or have someone retire/leave for another job during the season. Lon retired three days after the season ended, so I’m not sure what you mean when you comment on his “actions.” And to the extent some programs can hire their new coach a couple weeks earlier, it’s because they failed to make the tournament … which proves the point that we were in better shape than most because we were playing in late March.

Think of it this way: would you rather be hired at KSU or ISU and have two extra weeks but have to inherit teams that were beyond terrible (and had even more of a roster turnover), or be hired at OU two weeks later and know that even with the transfers of a few guys, you still had three very important rotation players/starters coming back. No one is suggesting he should have been able to lead us to the FF last year. But expecting an NCAA bid was reasonable, and should have been the bare minimum expected this season.

Where did I say he was different than other coaches? Actions = Lon's retirement. If the timeline isn't a good visual, I don't know what else to show you. In the portal, all those players were being pitched and generally had a foot out the door. (not to include tampering, which, one can assume, happened). The only differing outcome would be if all the players who were getting minutes decided to not portal, which was not the case.

Lon retiring set in motion the portaling out of Manek, Harmon, Williams, and Iwuakor. I won't add Reaves bc he was gone regardless IMO. My point was to show the cupboard was not full and Lon's retirement had a very big impact on that. Would you disagree with those statements?

We can discuss season outcomes or which teams we would choose after, but as a baseline...did Lon retiring affect our roster very heavily, yes or no?

 

[skyvue]

So yes, Lon did leave the cupboard pretty bare with his actions. Maybe he could have kept Kur based on that timeline? But with all those feet int he water, you are weeks behind everyone else in a recruiting pitch.

There are portal entries and transfer announcements--two very different things. A player can enter the portal just to test the waters--one could argue that's the wise thing to do with a new coach incoming.

Reaves was leaving. No incoming coach is going to convince an NBA-bound player to stay.

Victor Iwuakor likely knew Moser was hired when he decided to transfer. He announced he was going to UNLV after Moser's hiring, but only a couple of days.

Alondes entered the portal nearly two weeks after Moser was hired and did not announce his transfer till five weeks after that. Moser definitely had time to try to convince him to stay.

Manek entered the portal the same day Moser was hired, but his transfer announcement came nearly two weeks later, so Moser had time to convince him to stay. Moser says Brady was set on leaving and maybe he was, but at the time we were all holding out hope that Brady would leave the portal and return to OU. Were we all in denial? Perhaps.

Moser also had time to reach out to Harmon. Was Harmon even considering returning to OU? I don't know but Moser did have time to convince both Harmon and Kuath.

I've acknowledged that it's difficult to hold an incoming coach responsible for departures, though it's always job one for him to try to do so if he's taking over a team that's even decent. It's something a fan can hope for, but shouldn't expect. Time-wise, Iwuakor and Reaves (whom I've never mentioned as a player Moser could have retained) are the only guys who were lost causes. Manek, Harmon, Williams and Kuath all left 12 days or more after Moser's hire.

So I'll say again, when Kruger left, the cupboard was far from bare. It's in no way on him that players left after he retired. He reportedly reached out to encourage them to stay, to assure them that Moser was a quality coach. That's all he could possibly be expected to have done.

 

[TEvans4Three]

There are portal entries and transfer announcements--two very different things. A player can enter the portal just to test the waters--one could argue that's the wise thing to do with a new coach incoming.

Reaves was leaving. No incoming coach is going to convince an NBA-bound player to stay.

Victor Iwuakor likely knew Moser was hired when he decided to transfer. He announced he was going to UNLV after Moser's hiring, but only a couple of days.

Alondes entered the portal nearly two weeks after Moser was hired and did not announce his transfer till five weeks after that. Moser definitely had time to try to convince him to stay.

Manek entered the portal the same day Moser was hired, but his transfer announcement came nearly two weeks later, so Moser had time to convince him to stay. Moser says Brady was set on leaving and maybe he was, but at the time we were all holding out hope that Brady would leave the portal and return to OU. Were we all in denial? Perhaps.

Moser also had time to reach out to Harmon. Was Harmon even considering returning to OU? I don't know but Moser did have time to convince both Harmon and Kuath.

I've acknowledged that it's difficult to hold an incoming coach responsible for departures, though it's always job one for him to try to do so if he's taking over a team that's even decent. It's something a fan can hope for, but shouldn't expect. Time-wise, Iwuakor and Reaves (whom I've never mentioned as a player Moser could have retained) are the only guys who were lost causes. Manek, Harmon, Williams and Kuath all left 12 days or more after Moser's hire.

So I'll say again, when Kruger left, the cupboard was far from bare. It's in no way on him that players left after he retired. He reportedly reached out to encourage them to stay, to assure them that Moser was a quality coach. That's all he could possibly be expected to have done.

I am editing my post to correct the timeline error on Alondes, from meetings to the dates, I goofed. Thank you for the correction.

I still think the feet were in the water and we can have differing opinions on the subjective points of who he could have kept. I suppose it is based on our own opinions of what we consider bare, bc they were not out just yet. But, to me, in the portal means shopping around and elsewhere usually. Turnover is expected, but we did lose quite a bit. (no one had Alondes pegged as ACC POTY as well, so hindsight) Would have loved Alondes and Manek to stay. But here we are now, with 2 Groves and no Gibson.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Where did I say he was different than other coaches? Actions = Lon's retirement. If the timeline isn't a good visual, I don't know what else to show you. In the portal, all those players were being pitched and generally had a foot out the door. (not to include tampering, which, one can assume, happened). The only differing outcome would be if all the players who were getting minutes decided to not portal, which was not the case.

Lon retiring set in motion the portaling out of Manek, Harmon, Williams, and Iwuakor. I won't add Reaves bc he was gone regardless IMO. My point was to show the cupboard was not full and Lon's retirement had a very big impact on that. Would you disagree with those statements?

We can discuss season outcomes or which teams we would choose after, but as a baseline...did Lon retiring affect our roster very heavily, yes or no?

I don’t think anyone has suggested that Lon retiring had no impact on the roster. The discussion has focused on whether the situation Moser inherited was one that made it unrealistic to expect more from him through two seasons. We have had posters say our roster was a disaster and suggest it was all but impossible for him to come in and do much in year one. If the transfers had all stayed, we obviously would have been in great shape, but even without them, we have underachieved significantly. My point is that in my estimation, probably 90 percent of our current mess falls on Moser and maybe 10 percent can be attributed to those guys leaving. I mean, let’s be honest, there are dozens of guards as good or better than Harmon, and he is the only one of those players still in college.

 

[skyvue]

I am editing my post to correct the timeline error on Alondes, from meetings to the dates, I goofed. Thank you for the correction.

I still think the feet were in the water and we can have differing opinions on the subjective points of who he could have kept. I suppose it is based on our own opinions of what we consider bare, bc they were not out just yet. But, to me, in the portal means shopping around and elsewhere usually. Turnover is expected, but we did lose quite a bit. (no one had Alondes pegged as ACC POTY as well, so hindsight) Would have loved Alondes and Manek to stay. But here we are now, with 2 Groves and no Gibson.

We don't disagree, sounds like. I've at no point stated categorically that Moser should have been able to keep any or all of those players. As I said above, fans can hope but should not expect that a new coach will be able to retain any given player; all he can do is give it the ol' college try. You'd like to think when that many players enter the portal and don't transfer immediately, he could convince at least one or two to stick around, but we're not in on those conversations; perhaps all their minds were fully made up (though the timing involved in Alondes' decisions certainly suggests that he was reachable--he was clearly in no great rush to depart).

The point regarding Kruger is that all those players were still on the roster when he retired. It's not reasonable to blame player departures that occurred after he left on him. Again, he reportedly worked behind the scenes to reassure at least some of those players that Moser was a good hire, that they should consider sticking around. I don't know what more could he possibly have done aside from not retiring in the first place, which is not a reasonable expectation.

 

[TEvans4Three]

I concur with what you both are saying and perhaps I took a comment from one post out of context to hitch my wagon to.

That being said, Moser did a decent job recovering in year 1 and we got screwed by the committee. (both points obv IMHO)

The step back that we have seen in Year 2 is a bit disappointing for all fans. Bamisile not showing up, etc. We were so close in those first 4 close losses, it seems like the bridge of hope has collapsed under its own weight. It is hard to keep up that week in week out being so close and, based on how a lot of people view our roster, we were over-achieving only to see those L column results.

 

[steverocks35]

I played for a manic, twitchy, hyper control-freak coach my first 2 years of high school. I hated it. I dreaded practice. It was emotionally exhausting. He once grabbed me by the throat and choked me after making a bad pass in practice. He loved Bobby Knight if that tells you anything.

We had stellar talent and underachieved. We were ranked 4th at the end of the season in 3A in 1988 and didn't even make it to State. The coach retired after my junior year and the school brought in a new young coach. He was a breath of fresh air. I suddenly loved practice. Basketball was fun again, and although most of the talent had graduated the year before (2 guys went on to play college basketball, 1 guy played college football and went on to the NFL, and 1 other starter graduated) we missed the state playoffs by only one game.

I just wonder if Moser is hard to play for like that. Reports that he doesn't allow assistant coaches to speak in practice are alarming. Our recent play is alarming. Maybe going from a guy like Lon to a guy like Moser was a shock. I don't know.