Baltimore Riots

tooney said:
IMO, this guy nails it.......



Orioles COO John Angelos offers eye-opening perspective on Baltimore protests

Brett, speaking only for myself, I agree with your point that the principle of peaceful, non-violent protest and the observance of the rule of law is of utmost importance in any society. MLK, Gandhi, Mandela and all great opposition leaders throughout history have always preached this precept. Further, it is critical that in any democracy, investigation must be completed and due process must be honored before any government or police members are judged responsible.

That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night’s property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American’s civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.

The innocent working families of all backgrounds whose lives and dreams have been cut short by excessive violence, surveillance, and other abuses of the Bill of Rights by government pay the true price, and ultimate price, and one that far exceeds the importances of any kids’ game played tonight, or ever, at Camden Yards. We need to keep in mind people are suffering and dying around the U.S., and while we are thankful no one was injured at Camden Yards, there is a far bigger picture for poor Americans in Baltimore and everywhere who don’t have jobs and are losing economic civil and legal rights, and this makes inconvenience at a ballgame irrelevant in light of the needless suffering government is inflicting upon ordinary Americans.
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Exactly. It's OK to ship certain jobs overseas only if we reinvest some of the resources to replace what's lost here. The U.S. Is richer and more prosperous than ever before due to globalization. We have the best economic system and its firing on all cylinders now after fully recovering from the unmitigated disaster of George W Bush. $7.2 trillion of the national debt is the direct result of Iraq and his reckless tax cut schemes. That money should have been invested to transition into a globalized 21st century and that brainless imbecile frittered it away on nothing.
 
bocabull said:
$7.2 trillion of the national debt is the direct result of Iraq and his reckless tax cut schemes. That money should have been invested to transition into a globalized 21st century and that brainless imbecile frittered it away on nothing.
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That is interesting math given that the debt only increase by about five trillion dollars during the 8 years of the Bush Administration.
 
bocabull said:
Exactly. It's OK to ship certain jobs overseas only if we reinvest some of the resources to replace what's lost here. The U.S. Is richer and more prosperous than ever before due to globalization. We have the best economic system and its firing on all cylinders now after fully recovering from the unmitigated disaster of George W Bush. $7.2 trillion of the national debt is the direct result of Iraq and his reckless tax cut schemes. That money should have been invested to transition into a globalized 21st century and that brainless imbecile frittered it away on nothing.
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Were there no jobs created as it relates to Iraq? Did the equipment and munitions build themselves? Where do you get this crap? On second and third thought don't answer.
 
SoonerBounce13 said:
67757d1412800566t-why-climate-change-debate-political-one-united-states-tumblr_lmxlul7wvw1qgfo5ao1_500.png
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South Park humor. Love it! :ez-laugh:
 
bocabull said:
The headline of this thread is propaganda. The headline should read BALTIMORE POLICE BRUTALITY. That is the real issue. Everything is simply a distraction from the underlying crime.

White trash cops killing unarmed people. If it was being taken seriously and addressed the byproducts of the criminal police would go away.
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Wrong. I think you left out an adjective between police and brutality didn't you? I'll wait for you to edit to respond
 
The Washington Post is reporting Freddie Gray was intentionally banging himself into the police cage in the patty wagon and likely self inflicted his wounds.

How stupid does Obama look if this turns out to be correct. The professor was drunk and the cop did nothing wrong. His son Trayvon Martin was seen by the on,y eyewitness beating George Zimmerman. Michael Brown was a criminal that attacked Officer Wilson and now it may be that Freddie Gray died from self inflicted wounds.
 
Washington Post reported they saw a copy of a witness interview who said those that. Problem is this witness was the last passenger picked up after Gray was already incapacitated. Plenty of journalists have seen the report. It's been dismissed as fiction.
 
DenverSooner said:
That is interesting math given that the debt only increase by about five trillion dollars during the 8 years of the Bush Administration.
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National debt increased from $5.8 trillion to $11.9 trillion over W's 8 fiscal years even though he inherited a $300 billion surplus. Of course the Iraq war and his tax cut schemes were still in effect until 2011 and 2012. $7.2 trillion of the national debt is a direct result of those two items. Period. Let alone all the debt racked up due to unemployment exploding towards 10% and GDP contracting 8% in his last couple years.
 
bocabull said:
Washington Post reported they saw a copy of a witness interview who said those that. Problem is this witness was the last passenger picked up after Gray was already incapacitated. Plenty of journalists have seen the report. It's been dismissed as fiction.
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I don't know if it is accurate but I can tell you this statement will make a criminal case very difficult.

To defend you put this evidence on the stand and then you use an expert to show criminals self inflict wounds x% of the time. If X is a descent number you have reasonable doubt. Even if X is really small you still have a good argument.
 
bocabull said:
National debt increased from $5.8 trillion to $11.9 trillion over W's 8 fiscal years even though he inherited a $300 billion surplus. Of course the Iraq war and his tax cut schemes were still in effect until 2011 and 2012. $7.2 trillion of the national debt is a direct result of those two items. Period. Let alone all the debt racked up due to unemployment exploding towards 10% and GDP contracting 8% in his last couple years.
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I suspect the difference in our numbers is TARP. As you said the government got this money back.
 
bocabull said:
Washington Post reported they saw a copy of a witness interview who said those that. Problem is this witness was the last passenger picked up after Gray was already incapacitated. Plenty of journalists have seen the report. It's been dismissed as fiction.
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If he was incapacitated, how was he banging around? The other person could be lying. But if he is telling the truth, it wouldn't seem to matter that he got in van later. It would suggest he was functioning when the new guy was put into the van.

With that said it has to be recognized this is not a particularly strong witness. First, he apparently admits he didn't see anything and only heard the commotion. Second he is a criminal. Finally, he will likely get a plea deal on his charges regardless of what he saw. That plea deal may be used to raise doubt about his testimony. All you do is prove the plea deal happened and then argue that the deal was in exchange for favorable testimony. All of that (and an attorney should be come up with more) will tend to discredit this story.
 
DenverSooner said:
I suspect the difference in our numbers is TARP. As you said the government got this money back.
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That's valid. The ending debt for W's last fiscal year included Tarp which was paid back with interest. That's why instead of mentioning totals I initially referenced the amount of debt that is directly attributable to the tax cuts and wars for the life of those policies.

W's main mistake was Iraq. It was impulsive, costly and ineffective. At some point we have to address area's like Baltimore, Detroit, Cleveland, etc where the globalization of the economy has decimated manufacturing jobs and the accompanying rundown empty houses/buildings from lower population which results in lower tax revenue, higher poverty and crime rates. It's a death cycle the private sector can't afford to fix. The federal government has to invest and raze those buildings. Upgrade the infrastructure. Start fresh. Then businesses will come back, population will grow, poverty and crime will decrease and tax revenues will increase to support the community.

Fiddling with tax rates up or down has never caused damage to the US economy. Some policies rely more on debt for government expenditures, some rely more on taxes. The average over the past 50 years has to finance 85% of government spending with tax receipts and 15% from debt. As long as we stay close to that formula life is good. We are a little better than that now.
 
I agree Iraq was a mistake. I just don't agree with people that say Bush lied or it was about oil.

I also agree that cities are a problem but I don't think it is a federal problem. I think it is a state and local problem. I don't think the federal government should involve itself in every aspect of life.

I don't agree that we can constantly finance 15% of government with debt because it requires an ever expanding GDP. I am not convinced that is possible and I base that on social security. We assumed an ever increasing workforce when we adopted social security. Obviously that has not happened. I would prefer to see us pay down the national debt.

Just imagine if we had no debt. All that money spent on interest could go to social programs or simply not be spent. And the amount spent on interest in a significant component of our budget.

I also think our percentage to GDP has increased substantially over the last 16 years. In 2000 debt to GDP was about 60%. Today it is about 105%. If we continue on this path it will be 150% in 16 years. How is that possibly sustainable?

You likely know more about this than me. I don't pretend to be an expert on finance but logically it makes no sense. An individual couldn't live this way. A corporation couldn't survive this way. At some point you can't get any more credit.
 
I also agree that raising or lowering tax rates doesn't have a major impact. A tax decrease can stimulate the economy but at some point you have to put the taxes back in place so you can use that trick again in the future.

However, I think the notion that the top tax rate should be at such a low number is ridiculous. Why should a family doing really well making $500,000 a year pay the same rate as a family making $1,000,000. It is even worse when you consider some families make $20,000,000, $50,000,000, $100,000,000 or even more. I would add more tax brackets. By $10,000,000 (or some number), I would just have a flat tax of 50%. I wouldn't give them capital gains or anything; however, I would have an exception for capital gains if you sell a closely held business. In other words if you work all your life and sell your business for $10,000,000 I wouldn't take half of it. I would keep that between 15-28% which is what capital gains have historically been. I might even allow you to do this once every X years.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/experts-convictions-tough-win-baltimore-case-215428761.html

BALTIMORE (AP) — Baltimore's top prosecutor acted swiftly in charging six officers in the death of Freddie Gray, who suffered a grave spinal injury as he was arrested and put into a police transport van, handcuffed and without a seat belt.

But getting a jury to convict police officers of murder and manslaughter will be far harder than obtaining arrest warrants.

Legal experts say the case is fraught with challenges. A widely shown video that captured the nation's attention shows Gray, 25, being loaded into the van, but not what happened once he was inside. Other than the accused officers, the only known witness is a convicted criminal later placed in the van's other holding cell, unable to see what was happening with Gray.

State's Attorney Marilyn J. Mosby announced the charges Friday amid a backdrop of a city in turmoil — four days after public anger over Gray's death triggered riots, with heavily armed troops enforcing a nightly curfew, and the day before protest marches that drew thousands.

By bringing charges less than two weeks after Gray's death, Mosby, 35, said her decision showed "no one is above the law."

"To the people of Baltimore and the demonstrators across America: I heard your call for, 'No justice, no peace,'" the prosecutor said. "Your peace is sincerely needed as I work to deliver justice on behalf of this young man."

Within hours, the city's police union questioned the prosecutor's impartiality, accusing her of a rush to judgment and demanding she recuse herself from the case.

Even some of those who support Mosby's stand worry further violence might erupt if she fails to win convictions.

Alan Dershowitz, a well-known criminal lawyer from New York and professor emeritus at Harvard Law School, suggested that Mosby's actions were motivated more by political expediency and short-term public safety than strong evidence. He called the charges "outrageous and irresponsible," especially a second-degree murder count filed against the van's driver under a legal principle known as "depraved heart."

"The decision to file charges was made not based on considerations of justice, but on considerations of crowd control," Dershowitz said Saturday.

A call Saturday to Mosby's spokeswoman for comment was not answered, and her voicemail box was not accepting messages.

Regardless of the motivation, the announcement of the charges immediately shifted the prevailing mood on the city's streets from one of rage to relief.

To win a conviction, city prosecutors will have to convince a jury that van driver Caesar Goodson acted so recklessly that he knew his actions could take Gray's life. The classic example often taught in law schools is that a person who drops a flower pot off the balcony of a skyscraper onto a busy sidewalk below, or someone who fires a gun into a crowded bus.
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This is going to get worse before it gets better.
 
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