Crock.

[DenverSooner]

People who think Tony is not going to start and play big minutes are crazy. The guy is a returning 3 year starter. Not only is he the most experienced player on OU's team, he is one of if not the most experienced players in the Big XII. He and Damion James are probably the two most experienced guys in the conference. Even great players like Collins (or the kid at ISU) do not have as much experience (Collins did not start his first two seasons). Muonelo has a bunhc of experience but he broke his leg and missed half a season.

Crocker has also been a consistent contributor. People say he is inconsistent but I would say he is a streak shooter more than an inconsistent player. If he gets hot he can drop 20 on a team. If not he will make a few buckets and play a solid game.

 

[uberjamb]

That's true Denver, I just think a lot of folks thought Tony could develop into an every game high scorer. I like what Tony is, I have just always held out the hope that he could develop into a 15-20 point guy every night. Maybe he will never be that, or maybe he can start to score more this season, we will see.

 

[OULad]

He will play starter minutes no doubt. He is a pretty good defender, has experience and has hit some clutch baskets over the years. He and Warren do not have to worry about their minutes.

 

[MO]

I'd much rather have a skilled offensive team than a decent defensive team Surely no one is saying Tony makes us a skilled defensive team. I know Pledger isn't a three, but I see no way you keep TMG, WW and Pledger off the court at the same time. That team would light up the scoreboard and that will win more games.

 

[DenverSooner]

I'd much rather have a skilled offensive team than a decent defensive team Surely no one is saying Tony makes us a skilled defensive team. I know Pledger isn't a three, but I see no way you keep TMG, WW and Pledger off the court at the same time. That team would light up the scoreboard and that will win more games.

I don't think any coach would agree with you. First, defense is more important than offense and I would bet money Billy Tubbs woudl agree with that statement (in the days of Tubbs it was all about easy points off the press, traps and solid defense). Second, most people would take experience over a slight talent advantage (not a huge talent advantage).

I hope Pledger is so good that Capel has no choice but to sit Tony Crocker but I just don't think that is realistic. Tony Crocker is the senior leader of this team.

PS - it is nice to have more people participate so please don't take this as me trying to discourage you from participating.

 

[Crocker's Long Sleeves]

I thought it was pretty insensitive of Crock to switch up his style of armwear without considering the implications for the ouhoops poster "Crocker's Long Sleeves."

It was a sad day indeed, hopefully he will bust out the long sleeves at some point during the season. "Crocker's Arm Sleeves" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

 

[buttermaker1]

I can't wait my wife gets to listen to me yell CROCKER at the top of my lungs for another year. Forest Gump said it best, insert Crocker for life.

 

[elmocarp]

There's just something about OU fans...we always have to have some polarizing figure on the team to constantly bicker about. Austin Johnson is gone, so now its time for everyone to take sides over Crock. Its just what we do. So who will it be next year?

 

[campbest]

There's just something about OU fans...we always have to have some polarizing figure on the team to constantly bicker about. Austin Johnson is gone, so now its time for everyone to take sides over Crock. Its just what we do. So who will it be next year?

Cade Davis

 

[MO]

Denver:

Perhaps against my better judgment concerning time management, people that disagree with me probably aren’t going to cause me to quit posting. You and I have argued many times in the past going way back to Homer’s first board. I’ve simply changed my username to protect the innocent because alas, I was a Kelvin detractor. I’d tell you who I was, but I’m afraid you quit talking to me. (proper place to insert one of those smilie faces).

With that background, I’ll make my argument. Keep in mind that I’m not sure this argument makes sense even to me, but I’ll try.

Basketball is a game where lots of points are scored. You see a lot more games that are in the 82 to 75s range than you do in the 37 to 25s range just for example. In addition, you see more scoring as age progresses and talent is sorted. There is more scoring in High School than there is in Optimist, there is more scoring in college than in high school. More importantly, there is more scoring in the NBA than in college where both levels have already settled out who can really play. There is more scoring in the NBA because the talent is better (And, no, I don’t buy the notion that the NBA doesn’t play defense) and; (even if you do accept the notion that the NBA doesn’t emphasize defense, it’s an acknowledgment that offense is more important). Success through the competitive levels of the game becomes sorted out by physical stature, athletic ability and skill, all focused around the ability to get the ball in the basket. Keep in mind another point, there are two reasons for not scoring, either the failure to be precise in executing the shot or the effort of the defender. The point is that defense accounts for only 50% of the failure to score. Offense is proportionately more important.

The game is fundamentally about offense, because the nature of the game involves high numbers in scoring, because offense sorts the players that move on to successive competitive levels and because defense represents only half of the equation of the resistance to scoring.

Back to the reality of the thread, if we say Crocker is a very good defender, but an inconsistent scorer and then we go on to say he is probably not an NBA talent level guy, why is that? It’s because of the level of his offensive skills, once again making the argument.

Yea, yea, I know maybe a little flaky for a first attempt on the board, but I still maintain that game is fundamentally more about the ability to score.

And, I thought Austin was a fine player. For that matter I think Crocker is OK, too

 

[DenverSooner]

Denver:
You and I have argued many times in the past going way back to Homer’s first board.

Well that tells me you are an older fellow like me. Perhaps since the days of Homer's first board we have gotten wiser and can discuss and eve disagree in a more civil manner.

To me all sports are about defense. I truly believe if you have two evenly matched teams the best defense will win. Join any league sport and convince your team to actually play defense and you will win the league.

I think we will see Tony on the court for big minutes this year. However, if you prove to be correct and I prove to be wrong that means Pledger is one heck of a player.

 

[elmocarp]

Denver:

Perhaps against my better judgment concerning time management, people that disagree with me probably aren’t going to cause me to quit posting. You and I have argued many times in the past going way back to Homer’s first board. I’ve simply changed my username to protect the innocent because alas, I was a Kelvin detractor. I’d tell you who I was, but I’m afraid you quit talking to me. (proper place to insert one of those smilie faces).

With that background, I’ll make my argument. Keep in mind that I’m not sure this argument makes sense even to me, but I’ll try.

Basketball is a game where lots of points are scored. You see a lot more games that are in the 82 to 75s range than you do in the 37 to 25s range just for example. In addition, you see more scoring as age progresses and talent is sorted. There is more scoring in High School than there is in Optimist, there is more scoring in college than in high school. More importantly, there is more scoring in the NBA than in college where both levels have already settled out who can really play. There is more scoring in the NBA because the talent is better (And, no, I don’t buy the notion that the NBA doesn’t play defense) and; (even if you do accept the notion that the NBA doesn’t emphasize defense, it’s an acknowledgment that offense is more important). Success through the competitive levels of the game becomes sorted out by physical stature, athletic ability and skill, all focused around the ability to get the ball in the basket. Keep in mind another point, there are two reasons for not scoring, either the failure to be precise in executing the shot or the effort of the defender. The point is that defense accounts for only 50% of the failure to score. Offense is proportionately more important.

The game is fundamentally about offense, because the nature of the game involves high numbers in scoring, because offense sorts the players that move on to successive competitive levels and because defense represents only half of the equation of the resistance to scoring.

Back to the reality of the thread, if we say Crocker is a very good defender, but an inconsistent scorer and then we go on to say he is probably not an NBA talent level guy, why is that? It’s because of the level of his offensive skills, once again making the argument.

Yea, yea, I know maybe a little flaky for a first attempt on the board, but I still maintain that game is fundamentally more about the ability to score.

And, I thought Austin was a fine player. For that matter I think Crocker is OK, too

You addressed this to Denver, but I assume its fair game for anyone so here goes...

While your example about scoring increasing as the level of proficiency in the sports increases does hold a little water, I think you might be overlooking one major factor in that example. High school games are 4 eight-minute quarters (32 minutes), collegiate games are 2 twenty-minute halves (40 minutes), and NBA games are 4 twelve-minute quarters (48 minutes). More than any other factor, that accounts for the differences in scoring.

But ignoring those facts, in your argument you basically concede that 50% of the game is about defense. So I'm having trouble seeing how defense isn't at least as important to a player's value to a team as offense is. And no one, not even Crocker's biggest detractor, would say he is an incompetent offensive player...the issue is his lack of consistency. If the guy was an incompetent offensive player, then his value as a defender would be nearly nullified. But as evidenced numerous times in his career, he is not only competent offensively but occasionally outstanding (against VCU and Syracuse last year, Baylor and OSU the year before). And more than that, the guy is a gamer. He seems to make plays that matter.

I think people just don't get why a guy can hit so many big shots and look so good one game, then not be able to hit anything the next game. Its his potential and his good performances that frustrate people, because we want him to be able to do it every time.

Finally (and this is the part that I think people overlook the most), he regressed last season for whatever reason, but people seem to think that is the guy he's been his whole career. But last year was his ppg went down and his fg% and 3pt% were each the lowest of his career. And not just the lowest, but the lowest by a mile. He shot 45% and 44% his first two seasons, 39% last year...his 3pt% was 36% as a freshman, 42% as a sophomore, and 35% last year. Maybe it was Blake's emergence, Willie's arrival, or something else, but for whatever reason he just regressed last year (or as Eschbeck would say, he digressed).

Anyway, I personally have every confidence that he can match or surpass the numbers he posted as a sophomore. But if he doesn't, I still think he is a guy that contributes to winning even if his scoring is off, and makes us damn tough to beat when his scoring is on. He's a senior and he's been a hell of a Sooner and he deserves to start and get starter's minutes.

 

[uberjamb]

Cade Davis

If Cade plays like he did last night, no one will be able to say anything about him. I have a feeling he will be rock solid.

 

[MNsooner]

The shortened shot clock in the NBA certainly increases scoring.

 

[campbest]

This team had played one exhibition game and all of the sudden we are a great scoring team? Willie will get his, but besides that, who is a proven commodity to score? Crocker and Cade up to this point have both been inconsistent scorers and TMG, Tiny, Pledger are all freshmen...and any prediction on their abilities against actual competition is premature. This team has to play defense, it's not like we have scorers all over the floor. In fact, I'll say defense is MORE important this year than last. We don't have a proven physical presence underneath like last year (Blake and Taylor, who played bigger than his listing).

So basically you have one of two options...extend your perimeter defense to help safeguard the post, which is our liability when you look at the overall skill and potential foul trouble, or play zone. Capel loves the extended 1-3-1. Either way, Crocker is an instrumental part of both sets; he is the point man in the zone or setting the tone for ball pressure in man.

Yeah, I'd love to be one of Roy's teams and score 80 points a night, but this team is not going to do that. We're going to have a few games this year in the 50's, most of which will be in the 60's. You have to hang your hat on defense to some extent to be succesful (where is DSMok with that statistical analysis when you need him) Plus, defense travels, offense tends to fall flat at times...at every level of any sport.

 

[aaron7]

Cade Davis

No doubt about this one. It started last year and will continue throughout his career.

 

[campbest]

No doubt about this one. It started last year and will continue throughout his career.

Some of it was deserved, though. There were a few games he didn't contribute much at all, and then rode the pine for the rest of the game.

 

[elmocarp]

Some of it was deserved, though. There were a few games he didn't contribute much at all, and then rode the pine for the rest of the game.

lol...I see what you're doing there...getting a jump on the debate for next year...

 

[coacht]

What a lot of you are missing with Crock and Cade is that they do everything the correct way. They do what they are supposed to in the classroom, off the court, during the off season and, most importantly to most of you, during the game. Crock may be an inconsistent shooter, but Capel can always count on him to do all of the little things correctly. I think a lot of you need to realize the type of player Tony is. He is the best defender on the team, a leader of his teammates, and a guy who contributes offensively in other ways than just scoring, and every so often can contribute a 20 point game.

 

[MO]

Well as they say "doing the things they are supposed to do both on and off the court", while nice, doesn't feed the bulldog. We have another coach that is respected for suggesting that the best players will play, although I do apologize for even the slightest reference to the game played with the odd shaped ball.

Seriously, I like Tony too, so I'll get away from that part of the conversation.