Forte

[oSuJeff97]

As for free throws, most of Forte's FT attempts are a result of the steals. He steals the ball, drives the floor and gets fouled, it's not like he is fouled driving the lane in the half court. You can't look at stats in a vacuum.

You obviously haven't watched any OSU games this year if you say this. Forte has been regularly driving to ball to the rim in the half court.

That's one reason why his 2-point FG attempts, as a percentage of total FG attempts, is nearly double this year what it has been the past two.

And it's funny that you think him averaging 2.7 steals per game is going to boost his FT rate to as high as it is. Because I can assure you that he's not going coast-to-coast on 100% of his steals, lol.

In the ranking that matters and is used by the committee OSU is ranked #53. And for a major conference program that is bad. Like anybody cares there are 300 scrub programs out there when only 35-40 of them are legitimate.

HA good one. You certainly got me there. But here's the thing. The pedestrian arithmetic used in the RPI is heavily weighted to the most important data set. When there are 300 teams with massive standard deviation in talent, who you beat and lost to is the holy grail. Not only what your opponents record, who did they beat to accumulate their record.

It weeds out the pretenders.

Your misunderstanding of RPI continues to be comical.

RPI isn't a power poll, meaning the #1 team is the "best" overall team. It's a measure of relative success against a schedule that is weighted by opponents' winning percentage. It doesn't take things into account like scoring margin or home/road splits. It doesn't even care WHO you beat... just your winning percentage weighted against your opponents' winning percentage (and their respective opponents' winning percentage).

For example, lets say you play 3 teams -- one is 3-0 and the other two are 0-3. Let's say you go 2-1 in those games. It wouldn't matter which two of those teams you beat, what the score was or where the game was played -- your RPI would be THE SAME.

That is why RPI isn't a "power poll", while other ratings, like KenPom and Sagarin, are.

It's also why it's ONE FACTOR that the committee uses.

It's also funny that you think the KenPom rankings don't have value. Yeah, a ranking that literally takes every single posession into consideration couldn't possibly have any value... :facepalm

 

[oSuJeff97]

Do you really think KU is the #1/2 team in the nation currently?

Because they are either #1 or #2 in the country according to RPI (depends on who is calculating RPI).

FWIW, Kenpom and Sagarin have KU rated 15th and 14th, respectively.

Boca has been obsessed with RPI forever, even though he has no idea what it was designed to measure.

 

[bocabull]

Kansas has top 5 talent including 3 true freshmen 5 stars who are just getting their feet wet. They are coached by Hill Self. They have beat 9 top 100 teams which is more than anybody else in the nation. Their win against Utah is looking very good.

They haven't shot the ball well. When the smoke clears they will be closer to 2 than 15. But hey, if they lose many Big XII games their RPI will drop. As of right now they have the 2nd best ranking because they have beat more good teams than everybody else.

 

[BigTime]

Jeff,

Would you take Cousins or Forte on the Cowboys for this year and next?

Your answer will tell me all i need to know...

 

[DenverSooner]

In the ranking that matters and is used by the committee OSU is ranked #53. And for a major conference program that is bad. Like anybody cares there are 300 scrub programs out there when only 35-40 of them are legitimate.

I would argue there are more than 35-40 legitimate teams. You certainly have a point about many of the well over 300 teams not being that good but a good 150-200 can upset a solid program on any given night. They just can't compete in a conference like the Big 12 night after night.

 

[bocabull]

Boca has been obsessed with RPI forever, even though he has no idea what it was designed to measure.

What an aggy. lol

I clearly state the data set used by the RPI is the record of your opponent and your opponents opponents. Read much aggy?

 

[thebigabd]

Please.

You don't agree that a negative assist to turnover ratio indicates a problem with ball-handling?

You don't agree that getting to the free throw 78 times vs 30 times is at least an indication of ball-handling and aggressiveness?

 

[skyvue]

You don't agree that getting to the free throw 78 times vs 30 times is at least an indication of ball-handling and aggressiveness?

It might also be an indication of an offense that depends too much on a single player.

 

[BigTime]

It might also be an indication of an offense that depends too much on a single player.

Ding Ding Ding

Nash and Forte ARE OSU's offense. When Boone says to shoot - you shoot.

 

[thebigabd]

It might also be an indication of an offense that depends too much on a single player.

That doesn't answer the question.

 

[152219]

You don't agree that a negative assist to turnover ratio indicates a problem with ball-handling?

You don't agree that getting to the free throw 78 times vs 30 times is at least an indication of ball-handling and aggressiveness?

No, because if you are asked to be a jump shooter in the offense and you carry out that role, you aren't going to have many drives to the basket and hence will result in less free throw opportunities. OU has a post game with Thomas and the high low with him and Spangler that doesn't require a lot of drives to the hoop by the guards to generate offense.

Tell us again how the only thing Cousins does better than Forte is rebound.

 

[HoHum]

What an aggy. lol

I clearly state the data set used by the RPI is the record of your opponent and your opponents opponents. Read much aggy?

I'd like to know what makes kenpom less useful in gauging how good teams are. I find it, and I know I'm not alone, superior to the RPI in almost every way, as far as being used to evaluate teams.

 

[thebigabd]

No, because if you are asked to be a jump shooter in the offense and you carry out that role, you aren't going to have many drives to the basket and hence will result in less free throw opportunities. OU has a post game with Thomas and the high low with him and Spangler that doesn't require a lot of drives to the hoop by the guards to generate offense.

Tell us again how the only thing Cousins does better than Forte is rebound.

The only thing Cousins does better than Forte at this point in his career is rebound. Everyone is just throwing out weird opinions that they can't prove, such as Cousins being one of the best defenders in the country, etc.

Stats can't prove someone is a good defender, per people on this board, but a total lack of stats supported by 100% opinion certainly can prove it.

 

[ben]

I laughed when the Iowa State NIANNNGGGGG just lifted his hands up to block little Forte's shot at the end of the game.

That's all that needs to be said.

 

[AdaSooner]

You don't agree that a negative assist to turnover ratio indicates a problem with ball-handling?

You don't agree that getting to the free throw 78 times vs 30 times is at least an indication of ball-handling and aggressiveness?

Bigabd, I doubt if you will disagree that this is the best team OU has put on the floor in the last six years, yet you spend most of your time making positive posts about TCU and OSU. Are you wearing purple jerseys now, or did you switch to orange after TCU lost two straight games?

That's a serious question, I really want to know.

 

[152219]

The only thing Cousins does better than Forte at this point in his career is rebound. Everyone is just throwing out weird opinions that they can't prove, such as Cousins being one of the best defenders in the country, etc.

Stats can't prove someone is a good defender, per people on this board, but a total lack of stats supported by 100% opinion certainly can prove it.

Since you think Forte is a better defender than Cousins because Forte has more steals, then you obviously think that Cousins is a better shooter this year, right? Cousins has a higher FG % and 3PT shooting % than Forte. Also, according to Kenpom, Cousins has a higher eFG%.

As for Cousins' defense. I recommend watching OU play. He always has to defend the best wing player for the opposing team and has done a fine job of slowing him down. There are a number of reasons that OU's defensive rating according to Kenpom #4 is the nation and Cousins' defense is a significant reason.

 

[152219]

Actually, I did the calculation. Cousins has a career FG% that is higher than Forte's; therefore, using thebigcowboy's logic, Cousins is the better shooter of the two.

 

[HoHum]

Since you think Forte is a better defender than Cousins because Forte has more steals, then you obviously think that Cousins is a better shooter this year, right? Cousins has a higher FG % and 3PT shooting % than Forte. Also, according to Kenpom, Cousins has a higher eFG%.

As for Cousins' defense. I recommend watching OU play. He always has to defend the best wing player for the opposing team and has done a fine job of slowing him down. There are a number of reasons that OU's defensive rating according to Kenpom #4 is the nation and Cousins' defense is a significant reason.

This is very similar to the argument I'm making. Is Cousins a better defender than Forte? Yeah, I'm sure he is. I haven't watched OU nearly enough to have an opinion on the comparison, but I'll take your guys word on it. If he's the best wing defender on an excellent defensive team, I'm sure he is very good.

But, to think Forte is a liability on defense when essentially every statistical metric is telling you the opposite, seems odd to me. (Not saying that you were making that argument, 152219). The fact that he has an extremely good steal rate (regardless of the style of play that it results in) and OSU metrically is a strong defensive team as a whole, to me insinuates that Forte can't be considered a poor defender.

In fact, Forte is actually 3rd on the team (as far as players who see regular playing time, sorry Alex Budke who is in 1st) in defensive rating on sports-reference.com. Which tracks the team's defensive statistics when a player is on the court. His first two years he was dead last on the team, and he has certainly improved. Keiton Page routinely brought up the rear too, And routinely, Defensive Rating is a stat that gives you a very good idea about an individuals impact on defense.


If you were wondering about OU, sports-reference has Cousins with a DRating slightly better than Hield and Woodard, this year and quite a bit in front of Walker and Booker (who brings up the rear for OU guards).


Just out of curiosity, I guess, I went through the last few years of OU teams on sports-reference to look at DRating, and it shows Sam Grooms as being (by far) the worst defensive guard of the Kruger era. I hardly remember the guy, let alone his defensive ability, but would you guys agree with that? I'm just curious if your guys observations matched up with the statistics.

Because my observations of the OSU Drating stats matched up pretty well.

 

[thebigabd]

Bigabd, I doubt if you will disagree that this is the best team OU has put on the floor in the last six years, yet you spend most of your time making positive posts about TCU and OSU. Are you wearing purple jerseys now, or did you switch to orange after TCU lost two straight games?

That's a serious question, I really want to know.

There are 100 people on this board patting themselves on the back, discussing how good OU is, etc. And those same 100 people will be singing the opposite tune when OU loses to a TCU, OSU, Tech, etc.

I typically post about the topics that the herd isn't already discussing... For some reason it appeals to me a little more. I chime in occasionally on the pro-OU threads, but normally just read those and comment or post about other things.

 

[152219]

This is very similar to the argument I'm making. Is Cousins a better defender than Forte? Yeah, I'm sure he is. I haven't watched OU nearly enough to have an opinion on the comparison, but I'll take your guys word on it. If he's the best wing defender on an excellent defensive team, I'm sure he is very good.

But, to think Forte is a liability on defense when essentially every statistical metric is telling you the opposite, seems odd to me. I think the steal rate, (Not saying that you were making that argument, 152219).

Forte is actually 3rd on the team (as far as players who see regular playing time, sorry Alex Budke who is in 1st) in defensive rating on sports-reference.com. Which tracks the team's defensive statistics when a player is on the court. His first two years he was dead last on the team. And routinely, Defensive Rating is a stat that gives you a very good idea about an individuals impact on defense.


If you were wondering about OU, sports-reference has Cousins with a DRating slightly better than Hield and Woodard and quite a bit in front of Walker and Booker (who brings up the rear for OU guards).

From what I've seen from Forte this year, he has improved his defense and isn't near the liability that Paige was (even the previous two years he never nearly as bad as Paige was on that end). He is an adequate defender and considering his offense, he is a solid college player. The type of player every team would love to have even if you are using him as an instant offense boost off the bench.

But you even said yourself that Forte is always given the weakest offensive player, which is in stark contrast to Cousins who is always given the best offensive player (wing player obviously).