Fundamentally sound

[SoonerNorm]

I have seen posts in the past (one recent) which makes reference to the women being more fundamentally sound basketball players than men.

Do you agree with that?

If so, specifically in which areas do you find that to be true?

 

[MsProudSooner]

I have seen posts in the past (one recent) which makes reference to the women being more fundamentally sound basketball players than men.

Do you agree with that?

If so, specifically in which areas do you find that to be true?

I'm not sure it's as true as it used to be, but at one time, these were the things I noticed.

Jump stops and pivots.
Passes - the philosophy may have changed on passes. One thing that used to get players in trouble with coaches was using the 'baseball' pass instead of the chest pass. I'm not sure they care about that any more.
Shooting form on free throws, jump shots and lay ups.
Defensive stance.

I think some coaches have become so enamored with the athleticism of their kids that they haven't paid the attention that needs to be paid to these fundamentals.

 

[SoonerNorm]

Typically, I don't see that many women's teams that seem to stress fundamentals. UCONN is certainly the exception. I do not believe any coach demands more from his players and team than Geno does. They do so many things well that they look like a well oiled machine. I won't be surprised if they win it all this year now that Baylor is back in Waco.

Here are some of the things I look for in players and teams:

1. Are they great ball handlers? At this point I would say that men as a group are better ball handlers than the girls.

2. Shooting form. Many girls shoot from their shoulder. Guys generally shoot from a higher position above their heads. Guys are more creative in develping various types of shots that are needed against tall athletic defenders. I think we are going to see the girls emulate that.

3. Ball fakes. Neither impress me that much but I would still give the edge to the men.

4. Foul shooting. At one time I thought women excelled in this area but (without checking the stats), I doubt that is the case today.

5. Using the glass. This is another area in which I believe the women once excelled but not any more. Many girls tend to shoot too low on the glass or take a higher risk shot by not using the glass at all.

6. Passing. This is very subjective but I would tend to think women have slipped in this area in the last few years and no longer hold an edge there. Making low passes are low risk in women's basketball, especially to post players. Throwing across court bothers me too.

7. Following up shots. I would definitely give men the edge. Some women's teams demand girls follow the shots but too many take off to the other end of the court or, they pose on the shot. Men are bad about posing too.

8. Rebounding position. I see room for improvement for both the men and women. Men release their blocks and jump for the ball where women tend to stand flat-footed awaiting the ball. Girls could learn a thing or two about rebounding by watching Jo play.

9. Defense. Probably about even. You have some defensive stars in both men and women basketball but you also have some who tend to go through the motions.

10. Court awareness/spacing. I would give the girls the edge here. (KU men are usually really good at spacing and ball movement.) I think Sherri does a good job of teaching spacing. Movement without the ball...we need to improve there.

As has been addressed, the women's game is becoming more and more like the men's game in a number of ways. That could be a two-edged sword. Yes, every coach wants great athletes (taller is better) but we seem to be sacrificing some of the aspects of women's basketball that most on this board seems to appreciate and that is good clean fundamentally sound basketball. I really doubt the trend is going to be reversed.

Others can obviously add other things they look for.

 

[j2d2]

The pro game has taken over men's college basketball. My favorite all time player, Julius Erving, showed how it was done and now the only two shots allowed are from "downtown" and in-your-face dunks. The women's game is tending the same way-slugfest, root-hog and body slam. I dont like it or any part of it. I miss at least some finesse, mid-range, block and screen.

 

[SoonerNorm]

The pro game has taken over men's college basketball. My favorite all time player, Julius Erving, showed how it was done and now the only two shots allowed are from "downtown" and in-your-face dunks. The women's game is tending the same way-slugfest, root-hog and body slam. I dont like it or any part of it. I miss at least some finesse, mid-range, block and screen.

Good points! I would love to hear James Hale or someone interview Sherri and ask her about fundamentals (or lack thereof) as well as the trend in women's basketball and see what she has to say about it.

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

Don't know if anyone here listens to John Feinstein(you should) but he had Billy Packer on today. What they were talking about sort of touched on the OP.

He thought that one problem today is that no one really teaches basketball anymore. He feels that at the HS and especially AAU level kids are taught to showcase their skills and to work on what will make them stand out and help them advance. He also talked about the way the game is officiated - especially as it pertains to guard play. He pointed out that their aren't the stand out post players that there used to be. In the same breath he talked about how guards aren't taught how to pass it into the post. Instead, they are taught how to refine the skills that will help them individually as opposed to the team concept.

I know that their discussion was more along the lines of how the game translates from college to the NBA but I found it interesting none the less.

 

[MsProudSooner]

Don't know if anyone here listens to John Feinstein(you should) but he had Billy Packer on today. What they were talking about sort of touched on the OP.

He thought that one problem today is that no one really teaches basketball anymore. He feels that at the HS and especially AAU level kids are taught to showcase their skills and to work on what will make them stand out and help them advance. He also talked about the way the game is officiated - especially as it pertains to guard play. He pointed out that their aren't the stand out post players that there used to be. In the same breath he talked about how guards aren't taught how to pass it into the post. Instead, they are taught how to refine the skills that will help them individually as opposed to the team concept.

I know that their discussion was more along the lines of how the game translates from college to the NBA but I found it interesting none the less.

That makes sense. There was an earlier post on this board that was praising the two good women's AAU teams (edit: the two good women's AAU teams in Oklahoma) because they are actually coached instead of just showcasing player's skills. Just another indictment of AAU basketball.

 

[SoonerNorm]

Interesting article on AAU basketball:

http://premierhoopsters.com/wordpress/2012/01/23/the-truth-about-aau-basketball/

 

[SoonerTraveler]

Regarding fundamentals, the OU women turn the ball over at a greater pace than the OU men.

For the season just past (2012-13), scoring per game was comparable. From this, one might conclude that the “pace of play” was similar. I know from watching both the men and women play at the LNC, neither played a “run and gun” style.

2012-13 Scoring
Men played 32 games and averaged 70.6 points per game.
Women played 35 games and averaged 72.6 ppg.

2012-13 Turnovers
Men .. 376 turnovers // 11.8 per game
Women .. 566 // 16.2 per game

I know it is hard to compare apples to apples, as I do not know turnovers per possession, which may make for a more realistic comparison. But I do know that over the years as I went to the LNC to watch the women play basketball, it always frustrated me that they turned the ball over so much.

 

[tycat947]

Regarding fundamentals, the OU women turn the ball over at a greater pace than the OU men.

For the season just past (2012-13), scoring per game was comparable. From this, one might conclude that the “pace of play” was similar. I know from watching both the men and women play at the LNC, neither played a “run and gun” style.

2012-13 Scoring
Men played 32 games and averaged 70.6 points per game.
Women played 35 games and averaged 72.6 ppg.

2012-13 Turnovers
Men .. 376 turnovers // 11.8 per game
Women .. 566 // 16.2 per game

I know it is hard to compare apples to apples, as I do not know turnovers per possession, which may make for a more realistic comparison. But I do know that over the years as I went to the LNC to watch the women play basketball, it always frustrated me that they turned the ball over so much.

I don't know, but I'd venture to guess that Men's D1 average turnovers would be well less than Women's D1 average, not just at OU.