Great news

[AdaSooner]

I don't think so but you may be right. I get the feeling some (like Gary) root against certain players because they are frustrated with the effort (or lack thereof) by certain players. Stephen is a good example of this...he could have been a better or more consistent player but even as a sr, he disappeared. It seemed from where I sit, he didn't really care at times which is hard to understand (for me).

This is very frustrating and it's why Pledger received so much criticism from posters on this site, IMO.

But, maybe I'm wrong.

No, you're not wrong.

I'd dare say no one on this board was a bigger Pledger fan than me. Heck, I started singing his praises from the moment he committed to OU and continued to do so through his first three seasons.

My wake up call came at an early season game I attended in the MsCasland. Every player on the team, except Steven, came together in a circle before the game began, arm in arm, rocking back and forth to get the mojo going with an enthusiastic chant to create excitement. Steven stood alone, outside the circle with one arm extended, barely touching one of his teammates, like he was too cool to be part of such nonsense.

As I began to focus on him during games, I saw that same attitude and body language throughout the season from time to time. I finally admitted to myself that he took too many plays off, failed to hustle back on defense sometimes, and that he made more feeble attempts to defend a player driving the lane than anyone on the team.

To Steven's credit, there were also times when he performed well and played hard. It's just that I he didn't do it consistently. I'm talking about a lack of effort to defend, hustle after loose balls and rebound, not missed shots.

Do any of the things I described make him a bad person or a player who doesn't deserve our respect? Absolutely not. I will continue to support Steven and wish him well. But I will not pretend that he was a great player who met or exceeded his potential during his career. IMO, he could have done a lot more to help the team if he had dedicated himself to leaving it all on the floor the way some of his teammates, particularly Romero, were known to do.

 

[WTSooner]

No, you're not wrong.

I'd dare say no one on this board was a bigger Pledger fan than me. Heck, I started singing his praises from the moment he committed to OU and continued to do so through his first three seasons.

My wake up call came at an early season game I attended in the MsCasland. Every player on the team, except Steven, came together in a circle before the game began, arm in arm, rocking back and forth to get the mojo going with an enthusiastic chant to create excitement. Steven stood alone, outside the circle with one arm extended, barely touching one of his teammates, like he was too cool to be part of such nonsense.

As I began to focus on him during games, I saw that same attitude and body language throughout the season from time to time. I finally admitted to myself that he took too many plays off, failed to hustle back on defense sometimes, and that he made more feeble attempts to defend a player driving the lane than anyone on the team.

To Steven's credit, there were also times when he performed well and played hard. It's just that I he didn't do it consistently. I'm talking about a lack of effort to defend, hustle after loose balls and rebound, not missed shots.

Do any of the things I described make him a bad person or a player who doesn't deserve our respect? Absolutely not. I will continue to support Steven and wish him well. But I will not pretend that he was a great player who met or exceeded his potential during his career. IMO, he could have done a lot more to help the team if he had dedicated himself to leaving it all on the floor the way some of his teammates, particularly Romero, were known to do.

It's really tough as a fan to look at stuff like that (the not joining the team in the circle), and forming an opinion. I always end up back at this.....LK thought enough of Pledger to start him every game last year. To let him the 2nd most minutes on the team (only 7 less than Osby on the year). And to take the second most shots.

LK isn't the type of coach to do that if he thinks a player isn't working hard, or is being selfish. LK had other options, at least for the short term, and he really never used them. To me that is FAR more telling than how Pledger celebrated or did not celebrate with his teammates.

 

[garyeb2]

It's really tough as a fan to look at stuff like that (the not joining the team in the circle), and forming an opinion. I always end up back at this.....LK thought enough of Pledger to start him every game last year. To let him the 2nd most minutes on the team (only 7 less than Osby on the year). And to take the second most shots.

LK isn't the type of coach to do that if he thinks a player isn't working hard, or is being selfish. LK had other options, at least for the short term, and he really never used them. To me that is FAR more telling than how Pledger celebrated or did not celebrate with his teammates.

WT, here is how the formula works. And you should know this. If a player can shoot 40% or more from 3, that player becomes a marginally positive asset. They are a marginally positive asset even if they can do absolutely nothing else and a total liability in every other area. Even in that case they deserve to be on the floor.

Proficiency in other areas would naturally increase the value of that asset. Based on Pledger's shooting accuracy as a junior, Kruger would naturally assume that he had a 40% shooter on his hands. If that was going to be the case, it would be perfectly logical for Kruger to accept Pledger's shortcomings and stick him out there. A marginal asset after all, is better than no asset.

Here is the problem. Getting 40% out of Pledger wasn't the norm or expectation. It was an aberration. A regression toward the mean was what his senior season was all about. My contention is that if Kruger had any way of knowing in advance what he going to get out of Pledger as a senior (which he didn't) he would have never inserted Pledger into the starting line up to start with. Anything less that 40% from a payer as deficient as Pledger turns him from a marginal asset into a marginal liability.

Kruger did have some other options. But, they were limited and they also came with some liabilities. I can't blame Kruger for making the choice that made based on the information that he had. But, in retrospect, I doubt that he would make the same choice again.

 

[AdaSooner]

It's really tough as a fan to look at stuff like that (the not joining the team in the circle), and forming an opinion. I always end up back at this.....LK thought enough of Pledger to start him every game last year. To let him the 2nd most minutes on the team (only 7 less than Osby on the year). And to take the second most shots.

LK isn't the type of coach to do that if he thinks a player isn't working hard, or is being selfish. LK had other options, at least for the short term, and he really never used them. To me that is FAR more telling than how Pledger celebrated or did not celebrate with his teammates.

I don't disagree with anything you said. Kruger is a no-nonsense coach who would not tolerate a player with a bad attitude. That's why I made it clear that I didn't see an attitude of indifference in Pledger more than a few times throughout the season.

The example I used at the game I attended was all too obvious to me. I thought about it later and even considered the possibility that Steven might have been distracted and arrived late to the circle. I kept asking myself what I would have done in that situation, and the answer I got is that I would have found a way to be involved by forcing my way between two of my teammates. I would not have stood as far away as I could with my hand extended to barely make contact. But, as I said, that's not the only time Steven's body language got my attention. It was discussed on this board more than once during the season. I remember a game when LK sat him down and never put him back in. Can't recall the opponent, but I do know he was still on the bench when the game ended, at a time the team could have used a three point shot to tie a game we lost.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the contribution he made to the program. He was a good player and a very good perimeter shooter, even if his shot disappeared from time to time. It's just that I'm not going to deny that he had his faults, chief among them his weaknesses on defense. You have a keen eye for strengths and weaknesses in players, so you have to know that he was not a good defender on the help side or in transition. That was largely due to his lack of foot speed. But, IMO, it was also because he didn't hustle at times. Notice I said, "at times." When he tried his lack of foot speed was barely noticeable, which brings me back to my point about the number of plays I saw him take off last season.

 

[WTSooner]

WT, here is how the formula works. And you should know this. If a player can shoot 40% or more from 3, that player becomes a marginally positive asset. They are a marginally positive asset even if they can do absolutely nothing else and a total liability in every other area. Even in that case they deserve to be on the floor.

Proficiency in other areas would naturally increase the value of that asset. Based on Pledger's shooting accuracy as a junior, Kruger would naturally assume that he had a 40% shooter on his hands. If that was going to be the case, it would be perfectly logical for Kruger to accept Pledger's shortcomings and stick him out there. A marginal asset after all, is better than no asset.

Here is the problem. Getting 40% out of Pledger wasn't the norm or expectation. It was an aberration. A regression toward the mean was what his senior season was all about. My contention is that if Kruger had any way of knowing in advance what he going to get out of Pledger as a senior (which he didn't) he would have never inserted Pledger into the starting line up to start with. Anything less that 40% from a payer as deficient as Pledger turns him from a marginal asset into a marginal liability.

Kruger did have some other options. But, they were limited and they also came with some liabilities. I can't blame Kruger for making the choice that made based on the information that he had. But, in retrospect, I doubt that he would make the same choice again.

Spin, spin, spin.

 

[garyeb2]

I don't disagree with anything you said. Kruger is a no-nonsense coach who would not tolerate a player with a bad attitude. That's why I made it clear that I didn't see an attitude of indifference in Pledger more than a few times throughout the season.

The example I used at the game I attended was all too obvious to me. I thought about it later and even considered the possibility that Steven might have been distracted and arrived late to the circle. I kept asking myself what I would have done in that situation, and the answer I got is that I would have found a way to be involved by forcing my way between two of my teammates. I would not have stood as far away as I could with my hand extended to barely make contact. But, as I said, that's not the only time Steven's body language got my attention. It was discussed on this board more than once during the season. I remember a game when LK sat him down and never put him back in. Can't recall the opponent, but I do know he was still on the bench when the game ended, at a time the team could have used a three point shot to tie a game we lost.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the contribution he made to the program. He was a good player and a very good perimeter shooter, even if his shot disappeared from time to time. It's just that I'm not going to deny that he had his faults, chief among them his weaknesses on defense. You have a keen eye for strengths and weaknesses in players, so you have to know that he was not a good defender on the help side or in transition. That was largely due to his lack of foot speed. But, IMO, it was also because he didn't hustle at times. Notice I said, "at times." When he tried his lack of foot speed was barely noticeable, which brings me back to my point about the number of plays I saw him take off last season.

I don't want to go down rabbit holes with you on this topic. But, I think that I can provide some insight to your observations.

Pledger, by the time he was a senior, had developed a good understanding of Kruger's defensive schemes and his assignments within those schemes. Often times during practice they would work on defense at 3/4 speed. It is easier to teach and evaluate technique at that speed. During those times Pledger looked like a good defender. It looked like he had it down pat.

While he continued to take a possession off from time to time as a senior. I think that number went down from previous years. I remember being in a generous mood and giving him credit for that in one of those practice reports. This past year it was his lack of foot speed that got him. At full speed he just couldn't get to the spot where he needed to be in time. Same problem with Fitz.

 

[garyeb2]

Spin, spin, spin.

Logic, Logic, Logic

 

[jmizzy4ou]

No, you're not wrong.

I'd dare say no one on this board was a bigger Pledger fan than me. Heck, I started singing his praises from the moment he committed to OU and continued to do so through his first three seasons.

My wake up call came at an early season game I attended in the MsCasland. Every player on the team, except Steven, came together in a circle before the game began, arm in arm, rocking back and forth to get the mojo going with an enthusiastic chant to create excitement. Steven stood alone, outside the circle with one arm extended, barely touching one of his teammates, like he was too cool to be part of such nonsense.

As I began to focus on him during games, I saw that same attitude and body language throughout the season from time to time. I finally admitted to myself that he took too many plays off, failed to hustle back on defense sometimes, and that he made more feeble attempts to defend a player driving the lane than anyone on the team.

To Steven's credit, there were also times when he performed well and played hard. It's just that I he didn't do it consistently. I'm talking about a lack of effort to defend, hustle after loose balls and rebound, not missed shots.

Do any of the things I described make him a bad person or a player who doesn't deserve our respect? Absolutely not. I will continue to support Steven and wish him well. But I will not pretend that he was a great player who met or exceeded his potential during his career. IMO, he could have done a lot more to help the team if he had dedicated himself to leaving it all on the floor the way some of his teammates, particularly Romero, were known to do.

I noticed the same, but refrained from posting it because I didn't want to fuel the Pledger Bashers, who reminded me of the AJ Bashers, Cade Bashers, and whoever the whipping boy for the year is.

I always argued for Pledger on this board, and I defended him feverishly for 4 yrs. I agree with all you said about wishing him the best, and I appreciate what he did accomplish as a Sooner. With that said I also noticed the same disconnect you noticed in how he treated and reacted to his teammates. Other people close to the program noticed it, and he was spoken to about it by coaches from what I was told.

I never go after college athletes, even Tiny and his group, because I understand kids develop, mature, and grow up at different rates. I knew many arrogant disconnected football players at OU in the 80's. Many went to become great citizens and great people AFTER the lights went off, and they stopped being the center of everyone's attention. If some here would have a talk with Choo Kennedy, he describes this process of maturity a lot better than most can.

I don't think there is anything wrong with acknowledging Pledger was and always will be a Sooner, helped us win many games with his 3 point shooting, but at the same time he sometimes seemed to be disconnected. He certainly isn't the 1st Sooner, and won't be the last to leave some thrilled, and others thrilled he is gone......

 

[KBaden145]

I noticed the same, but refrained from posting it because I didn't want to fuel the Pledger Bashers, who reminded me of the AJ Bashers, Cade Bashers, and whoever the whipping boy for the year is.

I always argued for Pledger on this board, and I defended him feverishly for 4 yrs. I agree with all you said about wishing him the best, and I appreciate what he did accomplish as a Sooner. With that said I also noticed the same disconnect you noticed in how he treated and reacted to his teammates. Other people close to the program noticed it, and he was spoken to about it by coaches from what I was told.

I never go after college athletes, even Tiny and his group, because I understand kids develop, mature, and grow up at different rates. I knew many arrogant disconnected football players at OU in the 80's. Many went to become great citizens and great people AFTER the lights went off, and they stopped being the center of everyone's attention. If some here would have a talk with Choo Kennedy, he describes this process of maturity a lot better than most can.

I don't think there is anything wrong with acknowledging Pledger was and always will be a Sooner, helped us win many games with his 3 point shooting, but at the same time he sometimes seemed to be disconnected. He certainly isn't the 1st Sooner, and won't be the last to leave some thrilled, and others thrilled he is gone......

Good post.

 

[nikebasketball]

I loved Pledger 3 ball and was a fan of him and wish him the best in life.However I did get upset with his D but you can find fault in almost anyones game.His personality might have made it look like he had a bad attitude but when we beat Kansas he was tearing up...

 

[Big Old Booger]

I loved Pledger 3 ball and was a fan of him and wish him the best in life.However I did get upset with his D but you can find fault in almost anyones game.His personality might have made it look like he had a bad attitude but when we beat Kansas he was tearing up...

I was tearing up too and I don't even play! I always tear up when we beat the gawks from Larryville! :ez-laugh:

 

[Big Old Booger]

I noticed the same, but refrained from posting it because I didn't want to fuel the Pledger Bashers, who reminded me of the AJ Bashers, Cade Bashers, and whoever the whipping boy for the year is.

I always argued for Pledger on this board, and I defended him feverishly for 4 yrs. I agree with all you said about wishing him the best, and I appreciate what he did accomplish as a Sooner. With that said I also noticed the same disconnect you noticed in how he treated and reacted to his teammates. Other people close to the program noticed it, and he was spoken to about it by coaches from what I was told.

I never go after college athletes, even Tiny and his group, because I understand kids develop, mature, and grow up at different rates. I knew many arrogant disconnected football players at OU in the 80's. Many went to become great citizens and great people AFTER the lights went off, and they stopped being the center of everyone's attention. If some here would have a talk with Choo Kennedy, he describes this process of maturity a lot better than most can.

I don't think there is anything wrong with acknowledging Pledger was and always will be a Sooner, helped us win many games with his 3 point shooting, but at the same time he sometimes seemed to be disconnected. He certainly isn't the 1st Sooner, and won't be the last to leave some thrilled, and others thrilled he is gone......

Mizzy bringing it today! Good stuff!

ldwt356:

 

[AdaSooner]

I noticed the same, but refrained from posting it because I didn't want to fuel the Pledger Bashers, who reminded me of the AJ Bashers, Cade Bashers, and whoever the whipping boy for the year is.

I always argued for Pledger on this board, and I defended him feverishly for 4 yrs. I agree with all you said about wishing him the best, and I appreciate what he did accomplish as a Sooner. With that said I also noticed the same disconnect you noticed in how he treated and reacted to his teammates. Other people close to the program noticed it, and he was spoken to about it by coaches from what I was told.

I never go after college athletes, even Tiny and his group, because I understand kids develop, mature, and grow up at different rates. I knew many arrogant disconnected football players at OU in the 80's. Many went to become great citizens and great people AFTER the lights went off, and they stopped being the center of everyone's attention. If some here would have a talk with Choo Kennedy, he describes this process of maturity a lot better than most can.

I don't think there is anything wrong with acknowledging Pledger was and always will be a Sooner, helped us win many games with his 3 point shooting, but at the same time he sometimes seemed to be disconnected. He certainly isn't the 1st Sooner, and won't be the last to leave some thrilled, and others thrilled he is gone......

Great post with some excellent points, jmizzy. I'm glad you recognized that I was not bashing Steven. I was simply being honest in describing the things that bothered me about his (as you put it so well) "disconnect," as well as what I saw as a lack of effort at times. I have every reason to wish him well in whatever he chooses to do in the future. He was and will always be a Sooner, and that's enough for me.

Anyone who is even remotely familiar with my posting history should already know that I supported and defended Steven with every fiber of my being until this season. I just feel that he could have done a lot more to help the team. Maybe there was an underlying problem I didn't know about, a nagging injury for example. That was certainly the case with A.J., another great Sooner I supported throughout his career, and never once wavered from that position. I'll feel really bad if I learn that Steven had a similar problem.

In any event, I mean it when I say that I wish him nothing but the best! With that, my brief and uncomfortable criticism of a former Sooner player ends here.

 

[luckyc1423]

One of the best three point shooters in ou history is easily replaced. Lol riiiight that makes a ton of sense. I don't believe for a second that Kruger told mike basketball that pledger can easily be replaced.

 

[garyeb2]

One of the best three point shooters in ou history is easily replaced. Lol riiiight that makes a ton of sense. I don't believe for a second that Kruger told mike basketball that pledger can easily be replaced.

It is statements like that that got me off on the opposite side of the Pledger argument with several of the posters on this message board.

You guys want to take some remotely related fact and conflate it into some conjecture that you represent as fact.

Pledger finished up as 2nd on the career 3 pt. shots made list. that's it. That is the fact. With his above average shooting accuracy and the number of minutes he racked up over 4 years, where did you expect him to finish on that list.

Pledger was the most accurate shooter on the teams he played for. Those teams ranged from just awful to mediocre. That is it. Those are the facts.

Pledger was a career 36-37% career 3 pt. shooter. That's it. That is the fact. That is pretty good. But, it isn't in the same time zone as an elite 3 pt. shooter.

There is nothing in the facts that conflate to Pledger being one of the best shooters to have ever come through the program. Wouldn't career shooting pct. be just as good a metric as total shots made. Where is he on that list? Or how about game winning shots made. Where is he on that list? My point is that a lifetime achievement award is not the only way and may not even be the best way to make an evaluation.

One of my favorite is the Pledger was the 2nd leading scorer last season, therefore he was the 2nd best player. And on and on. You get my drift.
There is nothing in the facts to suggest that Pledger couldn't be easily replaced. Suggesting otherwise is pure conjecture. I took that to mean that through the improved play of others and the addition of a couple of nice recruits, Pledger's contribution from last season would be easily replaced. Just a reminder. That contribution was 11 pts. per game and a leaky defense.

Some of you guys want to present conjecture and conflation as fact. But, you are unwilling to take some shots when called on it. Of course, that is just my opinion.

 

[SoonerTraveler]

It is statements like that that got me off on the opposite side of the Pledger argument with several of the posters on this message board.

You guys want to take some remotely related fact and conflate it into some conjecture that you represent as fact.

Pledger finished up as 2nd on the career 3 pt. shots made list. that's it. That is the fact. With his above average shooting accuracy and the number of minutes he racked up over 4 years, where did you expect him to finish on that list.

Pledger was the most accurate shooter on the teams he played for. Those teams ranged from just awful to mediocre. That is it. Those are the facts.

Pledger was a career 36-37% career 3 pt. shooter. That's it. That is the fact. That is pretty good. But, it isn't in the same time zone as an elite 3 pt. shooter.

There is nothing in the facts that conflate to Pledger being one of the best shooters to have ever come through the program. Wouldn't career shooting pct. be just as good a metric as total shots made. Where is he on that list? Or how about game winning shots made. Where is he on that list? My point is that a lifetime achievement award is not the only way and may not even be the best way to make an evaluation.

One of my favorite is the Pledger was the 2nd leading scorer last season, therefore he was the 2nd best player. And on and on. You get my drift.
There is nothing in the facts to suggest that Pledger couldn't be easily replaced. Suggesting otherwise is pure conjecture. I took that to mean that through the improved play of others and the addition of a couple of nice recruits, Pledger's contribution from last season would be easily replaced. Just a reminder. That contribution was 11 pts. per game and a leaky defense.

Some of you guys want to present conjecture and conflation as fact. But, you are unwilling to take some shots when called on it. Of course, that is just my opinion.

Good points; all of this.

The only thing that cannot be replaced is Pledger's experience. The fact is that OU will be MUCH younger in the backcourt without Pledger and Grooms. Even so, the overall production from the guards (offensively and defensively) could be improved. We will have to wait and see. To confidently argue either way would be substituting conjecture for insight. Even the OU coaches cannot be CERTAIN how things will work out. Most coaches tend to express optimism in June.

 

[garyeb2]

Good points; all of this.

The only thing that cannot be replaced is Pledger's experience. The fact is that OU will be MUCH younger in the backcourt without Pledger and Grooms. Even so, the overall production from the guards (offensively and defensively) could be improved. We will have to wait and see. To confidently argue either way would be substituting conjecture for insight. Even the OU coaches cannot be CERTAIN how things will work out. Most coaches tend to express optimism in June.

I can agree with that. Outside of this message board I had quite knowledgeable OU fans argue to me that Kruger should have gone with Cousins, Buddy, Hornbeak, M'Baye, and Osby.

My respectful response to them was that going with 3 freshmen, a guy coming off a sit out year and Osby was probably a bridge too far. I don't know that the final result would have been much different. But, experience does count for something. Cousins faltered, early on Hornbeak was a turnover machine, and Buddy wasn't quite ready from the start. It probably played out about the way it should have.

 

[Big Old Booger]

It is statements like that that got me off on the opposite side of the Pledger argument with several of the posters on this message board.

You guys want to take some remotely related fact and conflate it into some conjecture that you represent as fact.

Pledger finished up as 2nd on the career 3 pt. shots made list. that's it. That is the fact. With his above average shooting accuracy and the number of minutes he racked up over 4 years, where did you expect him to finish on that list.

Pledger was the most accurate shooter on the teams he played for. Those teams ranged from just awful to mediocre. That is it. Those are the facts.

Pledger was a career 36-37% career 3 pt. shooter. That's it. That is the fact. That is pretty good. But, it isn't in the same time zone as an elite 3 pt. shooter.

There is nothing in the facts that conflate to Pledger being one of the best shooters to have ever come through the program. Wouldn't career shooting pct. be just as good a metric as total shots made. Where is he on that list? Or how about game winning shots made. Where is he on that list? My point is that a lifetime achievement award is not the only way and may not even be the best way to make an evaluation.

One of my favorite is the Pledger was the 2nd leading scorer last season, therefore he was the 2nd best player. And on and on. You get my drift.
There is nothing in the facts to suggest that Pledger couldn't be easily replaced. Suggesting otherwise is pure conjecture. I took that to mean that through the improved play of others and the addition of a couple of nice recruits, Pledger's contribution from last season would be easily replaced. Just a reminder. That contribution was 11 pts. per game and a leaky defense.

Some of you guys want to present conjecture and conflation as fact. But, you are unwilling to take some shots when called on it. Of course, that is just my opinion.

:clap

You hit that one out of the park but it was a softball that Lucky lobbed for you.

 

[garyeb2]

:clap

You hit that one out of the park but it was a softball that Lucky lobbed for you.

Exactly.

 

[tycat947]

I noticed the same, but refrained from posting it because I didn't want to fuel the Pledger Bashers, who reminded me of the AJ Bashers, Cade Bashers, and whoever the whipping boy for the year is.

I always argued for Pledger on this board, and I defended him feverishly for 4 yrs. I agree with all you said about wishing him the best, and I appreciate what he did accomplish as a Sooner. With that said I also noticed the same disconnect you noticed in how he treated and reacted to his teammates. Other people close to the program noticed it, and he was spoken to about it by coaches from what I was told.

I never go after college athletes, even Tiny and his group, because I understand kids develop, mature, and grow up at different rates. I knew many arrogant disconnected football players at OU in the 80's. Many went to become great citizens and great people AFTER the lights went off, and they stopped being the center of everyone's attention. If some here would have a talk with Choo Kennedy, he describes this process of maturity a lot better than most can.

I don't think there is anything wrong with acknowledging Pledger was and always will be a Sooner, helped us win many games with his 3 point shooting, but at the same time he sometimes seemed to be disconnected. He certainly isn't the 1st Sooner, and won't be the last to leave some thrilled, and others thrilled he is gone......

:clap:clap:clap