Harden trade dumbest move since?

[NickZepp]

Kobe for Vlade
Kareem trade
McHale and Parish for Buddy Carrol
Pippen for Polynice
Dirk for Traylor

Barkley for Hornecek, Lang and Perry
Cavs trading their first round pick(which ended up being Worthy) for Chad Kinch

There's a ton more.

 

[Eielson]

Barkley for Hornecek, Lang and Perry
Cavs trading their first round pick(which ended up being Worthy) for Chad Kinch

There's a ton more.

Oh yeah...I was just getting started.

 

[Eielson]

And OKC has two superstars. thanks for proving my point. :ez-laugh:

No...I didn't... :facepalm

please see my comment above about not knowing how to build a championship team.

Are you really going to keep playing that card? Not only is it childish, it doesn't even make sense. I'm over here quoting guys like Jerry West and Mitch Kupchak who have won countless rings, and you're backing a guy that hasn't ever won a championship.

You want to know historically how teams do that trade away a dollar for four quarters? Take a look, and tell me who's winning:

1965: Philly trades Connie Dierking, Paul Neumann, Lee Shaffer and cash to San Francisco for Wilt Chamberlain.

1968: Lakers trade Jerry Chambers, Archie Clark and Darrell Imhoff to Philly for Wilt Chamberlain.

1970: Milwaukee trades Flynn Robinson and Charlie Paulk to Cincinnati for Oscar Robertson.

1975: Lakers trade Elmore Smith, Brian Winters, Dave Meyers and Junior Bridgeman to Milwaukee for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

1983: Philly trades Caldwell Jones and Cleveland's 1983 first-rounder (No. 3, Rodney McCray) to Houston for Moses Malone.

1993: Phoenix trades Jeff Hornacek, Tim Perry and Andrew Lang to Philly for Charles Barkley.

1994: Washington trades Tom Gugliotta, 1996 first-rounder (No. 11, Todd Fuller), 1998 first (No. 13, Keon Clark) and 2000 first (No. 7, Chris Mihm) to Golden State for Chris Webber.

1996: Houston trades Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Chucky Brown and Mark Bryant to Phoenix for Charles Barkley.

1996: Phoenix trades Michael Finley, Sam Cassell, A.C. Green and a 1998 No. 2 (No. 53, Greg Buckner) to Dallas for Jason Kidd, Tony Dumas and Loren Meyer.

1999: Phoenix trades Danny Manning, Pat Garrity, 2001 first-rounder (No. 18, Jason Collins) and 2002 first (No. 9, Amare Stoudemire) to Orlando for Penny Hardaway.

2004: Houston trades Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley and Kelvin Cato to Orlando for Tracy McGrady, Tyronn Lue, Reece Gaines and Juwan Howard.

2005: New Jersey trades Alonzo Mourning, Eric Williams, Aaron Williams, Philly's 2005 No. 1 pick (No. 16, Joey Graham) and a 2006 No. 1 (No. 20, Renaldo Balkman) to Toronto for Vince Carter.

2005: Miami trades Lamar Odom, Brian Grant, Caron Butler, a 2006 No. 1 (No. 26, Jordan Farmar) and a 2006 No. 2 (No. 50, Renaldas Seibutis) to the Lakers for Shaquille O'Neal.

2007: Boston trades Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Theo Ratliff, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, a 2009 No. 1 (No. 28, Wayne Ellington) and the rights to Minnesota's 2009 No. 1 (No. 6, Jonny Flynn) to Minnesota for Kevin Garnett.

2008: Lakers trade Kwame Brown, Jarvaris Crittendon, Aaron McKie, the rights to Marc Gasol, a 2008 No. 1 (No. 28, Donte Greene) and a 2010 No. 1 (No. 28, Greivis Vasquez) to Memphis for Pau Gasol.

 

[bocabull]

Kobe for Vlade
Kareem trade
McHale and Parish for Buddy Carrol
Pippen for Polynice
Dirk for Traylor

Kobe, Dirk, Pippen and McHale were not trades per se. They were pre arranged pick swaps who never played with the team that traded their "rights". Every team slotted higher could have drafted those guys.

Kareem played 6 years with the Bucks and they literally did have to trade him or get nothing in return. Harden was under contract and would have beed a restricted free agent the Thunder could match.

 

[thebigabd]

Is RW more valuable than Harden?

 

[Eielson]

Kobe, Dirk, Pippen and McHale were not trades per se. They were pre arranged pick swaps who never played with the team that traded their "rights". Every team slotted higher could have drafted those guys.

Kareem played 6 years with the Bucks and they literally did have to trade him or get nothing in return. Harden was under contract and would have beed a restricted free agent the Thunder could match.

I'm not sure I can come up with a worse trade that didn't strongly revolve around picks (and the luck that comes with it), but I'm not sure I need to, as this deal was also centered around picks.

In terms of pure stupidity, and not just bad luck, I'm still baffled that the Clippers traded an unprotected first round pick for Mo Williams. That pick ended up being #1, and the Cavs selected Kyrie Irving.

The Nets also traded their first rounder (only top 3 protected) for Gerald Wallace, and that ended up being Lillard.

The Lakers were also obnoxiously careless about the protection of their pick for an ancient Nash. They nearly lost a top 10 pick, and if the Lakers have another bad year (which is definitely possible), they could end up losing a top 5 pick.

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

Then Patrick beverly happened.

lol

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

Is RW more valuable than Harden?

Would Harden have hogged the ball, not allowing KD to get a touch, in the last three minutes of an elimination game against the Spurs?

 

[SoonerBounce13]

No...I didn't... :facepalm

You really did. You said that you need superstars and fill the rest in with roll players.

OKC has two superstars. no need to pay max money for a third and have no money left to pay serge ibaka, perkins,etc. Can you really imagine the thunders lineup with RW KD and harden taking like 85% or more of your salary cap? Goodbye ibaka, goodbye. goodbye perkins. goodbye any decent player. We would have no defensive presence. no inside game.

You want to know historically how teams do that trade away a dollar for four quarters? Take a look, and tell me who's winning:

Again, did any of those teams already have 2 of the top 5 players in the league on the roster?

OKC was in a unique situation. It wasn't like htey were trading their top superstar or even their second superstar. it was their third. One with similar skill sets to westbrook (needing the ball in his hands, facilitateing the offense, driving to the basket getting fouled). Like i said earlier, paying a player max money when you already have two superstars that demand the ball isn't smart and your investment is better off in an area of your team that is lacking

 

[SoonerBounce13]

Is RW more valuable than Harden?

absolutely.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

lol

lol what?

The thunder were coming off the nba finals the previous year. They had 60 wins. were the best team in the west. had the best point differential in the nba. they were an excellent team.

And then beverely happened.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

Would Harden have hogged the ball, not allowing KD to get a touch, in the last three minutes of an elimination game against the Spurs?

old man, you've admitted that you don't really care for the nba or OKC...so why are you here?

but to answer your question....yes he would have.

Or he would just have 13 turnovers in a close out playoffs game.

People like to label harden a shoot guuard but he isn't. the offense runs through him

 

[bocabull]

I'm not sure I can come up with a worse trade that didn't strongly revolve around picks (and the luck that comes with it), but I'm not sure I need to, as this deal was also centered around picks.

In terms of pure stupidity, and not just bad luck, I'm still baffled that the Clippers traded an unprotected first round pick for Mo Williams. That pick ended up being #1, and the Cavs selected Kyrie Irving.

The Nets also traded their first rounder (only top 3 protected) for Gerald Wallace, and that ended up being Lillard.

The Lakers were also obnoxiously careless about the protection of their pick for an ancient Nash. They nearly lost a top 10 pick, and if the Lakers have another bad year (which is definitely possible), they could end up losing a top 5 pick.

The thing with picks, go back and look at previous drafts and see what a crap shoot it is outside the top 5. This is why trading away a known quantity like Harden who they could have locked up for another 4-5 years was such a blunder. Especially coming off a finals appearance.

The Lakers knew this so putting that top 5 protection wasn't as careless as it ended up appearing. The worst case just happened to occur. Take the first 2 years after the Nash Howard acquisitions. If Howard was playing then like he is now, if Nash kept up his PHX level of play for 2 more years, if Kobe didn't rupture his achilles. Gasol showed this year he had plenty in the tank. They would have won a ring.

 

[Eielson]

You really did. You said that you need superstars and fill the rest in with roll players.

You said I said that, but I didn't actually say it.

I said role players are easy to find when you have the superstars in place. Harden isn't a role player, and he's certainly not easy to replace, but he was given away for a lot of guys that are easy to get.

OKC has two superstars. no need to pay max money for a third and have no money left to pay serge ibaka, perkins,etc. Can you really imagine the thunders lineup with RW KD and harden taking like 85% or more of your salary cap?

Have you paid any attention the Heat or Celtics?

Again, it's fine if you choose to trade Harden, but get something of value for him. Personally, I would have paid the luxury tax on him for a few years, grabbed at least one ring (probably more), and patiently waited for a worthy offer. If you choose to trade him right away, that's fine, but get something better than this load of crap.

 

[Eielson]

The thing with picks, go back and look at previous drafts and see what a crap shoot it is outside the top 5. This is why trading away a known quantity like Harden who they could have locked up for another 4-5 years was such a blunder. Especially coming off a finals appearance.

I don't argue that the Harden trade sucked. It did.

The Lakers knew this so putting that top 5 protection wasn't as careless as it ended up appearing. The worst case just happened to occur. Take the first 2 years after the Nash Howard acquisitions. If Howard was playing then like he is now, if Nash kept up his PHX level of play for 2 more years, if Kobe didn't rupture his achilles. Gasol showed this year he had plenty in the tank. They would have won a ring.

I get it that the Nash trade was to go get a ring, and I supported it, even knowing Nash's health was risky. Had the Lakers had Nash the year before rather than Sessions, they would have beaten OKC, and may have won it all. You have to protect that pick better than top 5, though. I highly doubt that protecting it a few picks more would have made any difference on the trade, as I doubt that Phoenix actually expected to grab a lottery pick out of this.

This isn't worst case scenario. The Lakers could easily have lost the #6 pick, and may lose a top 5 pick this coming year if they don't make any big moves. These high picks are crucial to the Lakers rebuild; either as cheap contracts for talented players, or as trade leverage for a superstar.

Anyway, Mo Williams for Kyrie is the dumbest trade in recent history. The Clippers are obnoxiously lucky to be so good despite making so many mistakes.

 

[bocabull]

Don't look now but if Durant wants to reunite with Harden the Rockets have cap space to max him after next season. Get him back down close to Austin in Texas.

Harden Durant & Howard would be quite a big 3.

 

[Eielson]

Don't look now but if Durant wants to reunite with Harden the Rockets have cap space to max him after next season. Get him back down close to Austin in Texas.

Harden Durant & Howard would be quite a big 3.

I'd take RW, Serge, and KD over that trio any day.

Outside of a trade*, or KD just deciding he's sick of OKC*, I think the Lakers would be the big concern for the Thunder.

*If either of these happen, almost every team is in play.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

Have you paid any attention the Heat or Celtics?

The heat had Wade, LJ, and Bosh. Notice how their big three all play different positions.

The celtics had ray allen, pierce, and garnett.

Notice again they all have distinct roles on the team.

OKC would have had RW, KD, and harden. Extremely guard heavy and nobody in the backcourt.

Again, it's fine if you choose to trade Harden, but get something of value for him. Personally, I would have paid the luxury tax on him for a few years, grabbed at least one ring (probably more), and patiently waited for a worthy offer. If you choose to trade him right away, that's fine, but get something better than this load of crap.

They did get value. For starters they got to keep serge ibaka. Then add in Adams and mcgary and you have a balanced loaded roster.

Again, it is important to keep in mind that Harden on OKC wasn't a risk free max player. He hadn't started and did disappear in games.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

I'd take RW, Serge, and KD over that trio any day.

Outside of a trade*, or KD just deciding he's sick of OKC*, I think the Lakers would be the big concern for the Thunder.

*If either of these happen, almost every team is in play.

I think the lakers are the risk for westbrook.

DC is whom the thunder need to worry about for KD

 

[Eielson]

The heat had Wade, LJ, and Bosh. Notice how their big three all play different positions.

The celtics had ray allen, pierce, and garnett.

Notice again they all have distinct roles on the team.

OKC would have had RW, KD, and harden. Extremely guard heavy and nobody in the backcourt.

In an ideal world, yes, you pair up Jordan, Pippen, and Shaq in their primes as your Big 3. Good luck making that happen, though, as it's hard enough to get 3 stars as is. Sometimes you just have to take what you get, and load up your back court. It worked for the Bulls with their 3-peat in the late 90's. The only double-figure scorers they had were Jordan, Pippen, and Kukoc, and 5 of their top 6 scorers were backcourt players. When your guards score so well that all you have to ask of your big men is defense and rebounding, it makes their job so much easier.

They did get value. For starters they got to keep serge ibaka. Then add in Adams and mcgary and you have a balanced loaded roster.

They could have kept Ibaka simply be keeping Harden under his rookie contract and letting him sign elsewhere in the offseason, so that's not something they got from this trade; don't even try to reach that far. They got Adams and McGary for Harden...that's piss-poor, and no, it doesn't not lead to a balanced, loaded roster. The Thunder are clearly frontcourt-dominant, and their lineup from 4-12 is underwhelming, so I don't buy your loaded roster idea, either. It's all about RW and KD in OKC.

Again, if you want to get rid of Harden, that's fine, but get something remotely comparable in return.