interesting spin in Juco vs. high school debate

[Seymore Cox]

We've gone back and forth on this board whether OU should recruit Juco players or not. My stance has always been that for OU to build a program, it needs to recruit as many high level prep players as possible. Outside of getting the most high level prep players as possible, you need to fill a need. If their is a juco player good enough to fufill thta need, than get him. However the juco ranks haven't been filled with players good enough to fill that need on a high level.

So I searched out some of the top juco players from last year, and as more often than not, statistics a referenced on this board to propagate a philosophy that one player is better than the next, so I'd thought I would play along. I researched the top level juco players(juco first team AAs mostly) from last year and looked at the impact they are having on their teams this year.

By far the biggest impact is being had by Jarrid Famous. He's averaging nearly 12pts and 7rbs. Not bad. He has played against bad teams, but I still won't discredit his production. However in contrast to the top three post players Cousins, Gallon, and Favors, the numbers pale in comparison. These three players average more points and rebounds on teams where they are the second and third options. Cuz and Favors average 14pts and 8rbs respectfully on talented teams adn Gallon averages 12 and 10. Famous is however performing better statisically than John Henson and Wally Judge.

The second best Juco post forward is Chris Hines, a 6'8 PF who is playing for Alabama. Hines is averaging 2.5pts per game and 2.8 rebounds. Very poor numbers for a guy who has now 1 1/2 years to be productive. The top Oklahoma prospect, Wayne Runnels is averaging 5pts and 5rbs for a very bad Creighton team. The top juco forward in the big12, Marquis Gilstrap is averaging 13pts and 7rbs for a ISU team that really had a need for post help for Brackins.


Now Juco guards have been renowned for being instant offensive productivity players and in some cases that is still prevalent. Marvin Roberts is averaging 15pts at FIU and Rico Pickett, the consensus top juco pg is averaging 13pts at Manhattan. But both Manhattan and FIU are very bad teams. But more often, even that modest prodcution is not the case most times. Deandre Brown, the first team juco PG is averaging under 9pts a game and three assist. Casey Mitchell, a Bob Huggins recruit as WVU may have been the top consensus juco player last year. Mitchell started off well averaging 13pts in his first three games, but combined for 9 in the next 3. Mitchell is averaging 8.8pts per game and shooting a very bad 25% from the field. Dwight Buycks another juco aa for Marquette has been less than stellar statisically. Ridge McKeither averages 11.6pts for a Chattanooga team that is not very good. It's decent production, but for a mid major team.

So I know this isn't an exact science and in other spins their might be stats that may spin it a different way if you use guys like Michael Snaer's stats vs. David Tairu's. But there definetely is a trend of juco players underacheiving when it comes to high major programs and being somewhat productive to non productive when it comes to mid major programs. I also find it interesting how few Juco players were signed in the big12. This is a region where the best juco ball is played. Especially if you talk about the Juco colleges in Idaho, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, and Missouri.


I still believe you get the best players available. But I strongly believe juco players should have instant impacts. I don't see the instant impact trend happening for most of these players. BTW, OSU recruit Karron Johnson is averaging 22pts so far at Moberly.

 

[MNsooner]

I don't know why you are comparing jucos to McDAA. Everyone knows how that comparison will turn out. You need to compare the top juco players to guys who are borderline top 100 to top 150 because those are the guys you are going to choose between.

 

[HoHum]

I don't think the debate has ever been top JUCO vs top prep player. Nobody wants the top JUCO player over the #1 High school player. I do think there is a legitimate debate in filling a scholarship slot with a JUCO rather than a freshman who might not contribute for 2 or 3 years or possibly ever.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

I don't know why you are comparing jucos to McDAA. Everyone knows how that comparison will turn out. You need to compare the top juco players to guys who are borderline top 100 to top 150 because those are the guys you are going to choose between.

This.

 

[BigTime]

This.

Means!

 

[Seymore Cox]

I don't know why you are comparing jucos to McDAA. Everyone knows how that comparison will turn out. You need to compare the top juco players to guys who are borderline top 100 to top 150 because those are the guys you are going to choose between.

yeah, I said it was spin and it's spin. But it's hard to compare them to 100-150 prospects because if that were the case, I would need to go back and compare them to guys like Cade Davis who was a below 200 prospect to make it equate. But the result is still the same. I would rather have Storm Warren, Marcus Denmon, Verdell Jones, Colton Iverson, Jiovan Fontan, Kim English, Rotnei Clarke, and Keiton Page. Those fringe 100 guys are just sophomores. Marshall Moses, Dallas Lauderdale, Jeremy Hazell, Laval Lucas-Perry, Olu Ashalou, and Kodi Augustus are fringe 100 guys who are better than the guys I listed. Also, Hobson and Brandon McGee are top 150 players who went the juco route. Most of the juco prospects taht are being mentioned are not highly rated prep players. The ones who were highly rated prep players translate the projection from high school to juco, and back to the four year institution.

More often than not, juco players now a days are used to add depth where as in the cases with Billy Tubbs and Early 2000 Sampson, you could bring in a Juco all american like Ere, Everett, McGhee, and Gray, and you'd almost be guaranteed of having a guy that will be all big12.

 

[cfin5256]

Means!

Greatness!

:tmg

 

[SoonerfanTU]

DM, it depends what your team needs, what your class breakdown is, and who you are sucessfully or unsucessfully recruiting.

You say you'd rather have Clarke and Page. Would you rather have Clarke and Page than the kid that went to LSU for two years (JUCO, forgetting his name)? Pretty sure that kid got drafted. Would you rather have Fitz then Ace (and yes, I know Ace was an unusual JUCO)? What I'm saying is, if a star leaves early, and OU can't recruit a top 15 HS kid as a replacement, and we're missing a #1 or #2 scorer, sometimes JUCO is the best route to go. If we keep losing kids after one or two years, in order to maintain class balance so that we don't end up with a roster entirely of frosh/sophs, sometimes you have to recruit JUCO's. If your team is missing a big off the bench that can defend and be tough, sometimes that might be better found going to the JUCO route.

You can't just evaluate this on a high, every point you make applies to every college team, level. It differs from program to program, year to year. I don't see how you can think that NOT looking at a JUCO or two for next year is a good idea, assuming we can't bring in any more top 50 talent.

 

[Seymore Cox]

DM, it depends what your team needs, what your class breakdown is, and who you are sucessfully or unsucessfully recruiting.

You say you'd rather have Clarke and Page. Would you rather have Clarke and Page than the kid that went to LSU for two years (JUCO, forgetting his name)? Pretty sure that kid got drafted. Would you rather have Fitz then Ace (and yes, I know Ace was an unusual JUCO)? What I'm saying is, if a star leaves early, and OU can't recruit a top 15 HS kid as a replacement, and we're missing a #1 or #2 scorer, sometimes JUCO is the best route to go. If we keep losing kids after one or two years, in order to maintain class balance so that we don't end up with a roster entirely of frosh/sophs, sometimes you have to recruit JUCO's. If your team is missing a big off the bench that can defend and be tough, sometimes that might be better found going to the JUCO route.

You can't just evaluate this on a high, every point you make applies to every college team, level. It differs from program to program, year to year. I don't see how you can think that NOT looking at a JUCO or two for next year is a good idea, assuming we can't bring in any more top 50 talent.

You're refering to Marcus Thorton. That's a tough one. I'd probably take Clarke s a junior and Senior over Thorton as a junior and Senior. Thorton kind of carried that team, but I do respect Trent Johnson as a great coach. But as you can tell, It's hard to even come up with the name of the best Juco player in the last 3 plus years. I tell you what, I'd rather take Thorton over Naismith and Early, guys who where in his same class. And my point is not to say the the Juco ranks is void of any talented players. I think Juan Patillo is the most athletic guy not named blake griffin over the last 10 years at OU. But Patillo and Thorton are exceptions to the norm when it comes to guys being productive. There have been very few Thorton's and Weems, and more Cannons. Now again, I said I'm not anti juco playes so don't paint me with that brush, but I am anti Juco as a mass recruiting philosophy. If we are signing 3 juco guys in a class, that's not a good class. Now if we're signing guys like Darnell Dodson and Rico Pickett, guys who really are top 150 talents who had to go the juco route for whatever reason, I'm not opposed. But if you look at the fringe 100-150, those guys get offers before juco players so coaches must be taking this same approach.

 

[thebigabd]

The second best Juco post forward is Chris Hines, a 6'8 PF who is playing for Alabama.

That just is not true. The "juco junction" ranking system is broken, and is not a real gauge... Case and point, they have Marquis Gilstrap (Iowa State) as the #100 juco player and he is a really good player.

Gary Flowers, Dwight Hardy, David Tairu, Lance Jeter, Darko Cohadaerivic, Darrington Hobson, Marquis Gilstrap, Jarrid Famous, Nick Okorie, Aubrey Coleman, Marcus Thornton, Casey Mitchell, Sonny Weems, Stefhon Hannah, Rob Mckiver, Mike Taylor, Gary Wilkinson, Ade Dagundoro, Steve Harley, Robert Jarvis, Booker Woodfox, Roderick Flemings, and many many more have been very good college players over the past couple of years.

I don't think anyone (and that means me as well) is suggesting that juco players are the answer for primary talent. What I suggest is that teams can be older (which matters) and fill roles in junior college. For example, OU would rather have guys like Nick Okorie and David Tairu (athletic juco guards for Tech) instead of Cade Davis and Ray Willis. I have nothing against Cade, but I would rather have Okorie or Tairu. Willis obviously is not ready to play, where they are.

I think OU can nab a guy or two (there is always a guy or two) every year if they REALLY wanted to. Capel is a great recruiter and I can't imagine him not being able to get role/support players like David Tairu, Booker Woodfox, Robert Jarvis, etc if he really wanted to. Some of those guys listed above (Weems, Woodfox, Wilkinson, Thornton) were national all-americans in the past 2 years. Your post indicates that the second best juco player averages 2 points a game, and that is an inaccurate and an attempt by you to toughen your stance with bad information. Sure, maybe that guy sucks but juco rankings are not relevant most of the time.

That's all im saying.. a guy or two... probably just one guy a class (if OU needs an impact, older guy in the post or perimeter).. OU could get the good ones. They just have to find them and want to recruit them. In basketball one guy can make a difference.

Like I said earlier, OU doesnt need to be Tech and be 50/50... They could be better if they were 90/10 or 85/15.

I'd probably take Clarke s a junior and Senior over Thorton as a junior and Senior.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Rotnei Clarke isnt even in the same league as Marcus Thornton... Thornton is a pro player, Rotnei is a great shooter on the worst Arkansas team in the programs history.

 

[drmouse]

it seems to me tubbs and sampson had some pretty good jucos, ricky grace, mockie blaylock to name two and wasn't mcghee a juco and you know you will have a juco for two years a mcd aa might just be one year

 

[Seymore Cox]

That just is not true. The "juco junction" ranking system is broken, and is not a real gauge... Case and point, they have Marquis Gilstrap (Iowa State) as the #100 juco player and he is a really good player.

Gary Flowers, Dwight Hardy, David Tairu, Lance Jeter, Darko Cohadaerivic, Darrington Hobson, Marquis Gilstrap, Jarrid Famous, Nick Okorie, Aubrey Coleman, Marcus Thornton, Casey Mitchell, Sonny Weems, Stefhon Hannah, Rob Mckiver, Mike Taylor, Gary Wilkinson, Ade Dagundoro, Steve Harley, Robert Jarvis, Booker Woodfox, Roderick Flemings, and many many more have been very good college players over the past couple of years.

I don't think anyone (and that means me as well) is suggesting that juco players are the answer for primary talent. What I suggest is that teams can be older (which matters) and fill roles in junior college. For example, OU would rather have guys like Nick Okorie and David Tairu (athletic juco guards for Tech) instead of Cade Davis and Ray Willis. I have nothing against Cade, but I would rather have Okorie or Tairu. Willis obviously is not ready to play, where they are.

I think OU can nab a guy or two (there is always a guy or two) every year if they REALLY wanted to. Capel is a great recruiter and I can't imagine him not being able to get role/support players like David Tairu, Booker Woodfox, Robert Jarvis, etc if he really wanted to. Some of those guys listed above (Weems, Woodfox, Wilkinson, Thornton) were national all-americans in the past 2 years. Your post indicates that the second best juco player averages 2 points a game, and that is an inaccurate and an attempt by you to toughen your stance with bad information. Sure, maybe that guy sucks but juco rankings are not relevant most of the time.

That's all im saying.. a guy or two... probably just one guy a class (if OU needs an impact, older guy in the post or perimeter).. OU could get the good ones. They just have to find them and want to recruit them. In basketball one guy can make a difference.

Like I said earlier, OU doesnt need to be Tech and be 50/50... They could be better if they were 90/10 or 85/15.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Rotnei Clarke isnt even in the same league as Marcus Thornton... Thornton is a pro player, Rotnei is a great shooter on the worst Arkansas team in the programs history.

Some of those guys you mentioned were actually top 150 prospects that couldn't make eligibility or made eligibilty and transfered. Gary Flowers was highly recruited and enrolled at OSU. Flemming played for OSU, transfered to TCU, and ended up playing one year at a Juco. He made the final cut for the McDAA nominations. That's not what the juco ranks are filled with. As far as Clark, he actually is in the same league Thorton was, the sec. Clarke will probably be an NBA player. And it's funny that you compare a player early into his sophomore season with a guy that became productive in his senior season. Also, some of the guys that you list are not good players. Jeter?


Yeah, I agree with you, if there is a Juco player that is good enough for an offer, let's sign him. I'd love to have Patillo this year. But the majority of these juco players that are coming out aren't very good.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

Clarke will probably be an NBA player.

Doubtful.

 

[campbest]

My two cents on JUCO players...first off, throw out the All-Americans and that jazz. While those teams may have a few players, the junior college ranks are so large there isn't much in-depth coverage. I remember going against JP Batista (ended up starting for Gonzaga) and when he got to Barton County, he wasn't even ranked. Most of the players who make that team probably played in the national tournament in Hutchison...that's just how it is. Do you think Omar Leary was really a junior college All-American? Absolutely not.

Secondly, as ABD said, the rankings in junior college are even more of an inexact science than high school recruiting. I think the most important aspect is looking for a player who has a specific niche which plugs into your team, therefore, lots of good junior college players (primarily those who score a lot) are sometimes less coveted.

You always go after the best young talent, however, with the possibility of our guys leaving early for the draft I believe that it is a necessity to actively look in the junior college ranks.

 

[DenverSooner]

I don't know why you are comparing jucos to McDAA. Everyone knows how that comparison will turn out. You need to compare the top juco players to guys who are borderline top 100 to top 150 because those are the guys you are going to choose between.

I even think comparing jucos to top 100-150 players is a bit high. There are over 300 D-1 programs. About 10-20 sign 3+ top 100 players. OU has traditionally chosen to take juco players over guys that are not ranked in the top 150.

Personally, I would almost always take the Top 150 recruit over a juco player. Each team has 13 players. 13 X 300 is 3,900 players. The top 150 high school players account for only 600 players in college basketball and that is ignoring that some go pro early. Only 15% of all college players are Top 150 high school recruits. Perhaps at BCS schools 40% or even 50% were Top 150 recruits but there are lots of guys playing at pretty well respected programs that were not top 150 high school players. Very few programs have the type of talent that KU, Duke, North Carolina and Kentucky have. Most have a handful of really good players with key role players to complete the team. I think a top 150 player falls into that handfull of really talented players.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

Personally, I would almost always take the Top 150 recruit over a juco player.

Really? Because I've seen alot of kids ranked 75+ end up doing NOTHING in college.

Talent evaluation, and matching your team's needs with what you are recruiting. That is the key.

 

[thebigabd]

Really? Because I've seen alot of kids ranked 75+ end up doing NOTHING in college.

Exactly... your talking about recruiting a pool of maybe 100 junior college players against a pool of hundreds of high school and prep school kids. Per capita, juco players do pretty well.

 

[brettromar]

I would take Corey Brewer, Ace, Quanas White on my team.

There are exceptions for both. I think OU would take the kid from Redlands right now, Gray as the other post player.

 

[psk2080]

Not all JUCO kids should be judged in the same light...you have the juco kids that were juco straight from high school, and you have juco kids that went D-I and then transferred to a juco, then back to D-I...guys like Ace McGhee went D-I first (Cincinnati)...the guys that were D-I first and then juco are more likely to be successful at a high major when they come out of juco than the "regular" juco kids...nowadays though it seems fewer kids go the route of Ace and they just transfer and sit a year instead...guys like Ace McGhee, Taj Gray, Corey Brewer, etc. are becoming rarer and rarer...it's rare to even find guys like Daryan Selvy anymore...OU has been very good historically in finding jucos that can be successful D-I players...I don't think that we will see that as much anymore...good jucos are going the way of senior all-americans...becoming extinct...

 

[Seymore Cox]

The "juco junction" ranking system is broken, and is not a real gauge

You have a Juco junction account? :clap That's got to be the funniest. Nah, bruh, I just referenced the ncjaa all american list.