Lon's Best Team?

[WichitaSooner]

It's closer than it should be between the two teams.. But we don't have a guy that could guard Spangler.. Buddy was maybe the best player in the NCAA.. Cousins vs Reaves would have been a nice matchup though.

This will be a very unpopular view, but Spangler was not a particularly good offensive player against good competition. He started each season strong but would struggle as the season went on and the competition improved. Kur and Manek have guarded plenty of post players with better offensive games than Spangler.

The FF team had the best player in America and was definitely the better offensive team. This team is much deeper and has developed a defensive identity and toughness. There isn’t an NBA player on this team, let alone a high lottery pick like Buddy. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t a lot of fun to watch or that they can’t make a run in the tournament.

 

[sheepdogs1]

Oh... I see... so basically, 3 point defense, when you only include conference games, is a weakness... and the 2016 team only had the reigning NBA 3 point champion...

If we were to look at what has fueled this discussion is "there has been a noticeable change in how we guard on defense as of late" (paraphrased). Which came first, non conference play or conference play?

 

[Max Power]

If we were to look at what has fueled this discussion is "there has been a noticeable change in how we guard on defense as of late" (paraphrased). Which came first, non conference play or conference play?

Non-con came first, In big 12 play, which is the last 6 weeks, we are eighth in the conference in 3 point defense according to Kenpom. 8 out of 10, when 2 of those 10 are KSU and ISU who are god awful this year, is not good. That's what fueled this whole discussion, that the 2016 team would light this years team up from 3 and beat this years team. I don't understand how that is so controversial .

 

[sheepdogs1]

Non-con came first, In big 12 play, which is the last 6 weeks, we are eighth in the conference in 3 point defense according to Kenpom. 8 out of 10, when 2 of those 10 are KSU and ISU who are god awful this year, is not good. That's what fueled this whole discussion, that the 2016 team would light this years team up from 3 and beat this years team.

Thus if there has been a change on defense recently it would likely show up in conference play rather than non-con, thus illustrating 3 pt defense against conference foes, which is what "Spence" did. This is my point.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Non-con came first, In big 12 play, which is the last 6 weeks, we are eighth in the conference in 3 point defense according to Kenpom. 8 out of 10, when 2 of those 10 are KSU and ISU who are god awful this year, is not good. That's what fueled this whole discussion, that the 2016 team would light this years team up from 3 and beat this years team. I don't understand how that is so controversial .

We played four conference games before the lineup change and one of those was a game where WVU made 14 3s and shot 58 percent behind the line. Baylor also hit over 40 percent against us, and TCU made 10 and hit 36 percent. We were awful defending the three the first nine games of the season.

In the nine games since the lineup change, teams have hit just under 34 percent against us and we have had only one game where we struggled to defend it. Take away that one game, and teams are under 31 percent, and that includes a game against a Bama team that takes and makes a ton of threes. Sign me up every day of the week if we can continue defending it really well 8 out of every 9 games.

 

[stormspencer]

Oh... I see... so basically, 3 point defense, when you only include conference games, is a weakness... and the 2016 team only had the reigning NBA 3 point champion...

I wasn't making an argument one way or the other....just providing data from kenpom to help facilitate the discussion.

While it is an interesting discussion, there are more data points if you wanted to compare the '16 team to this year's team. For example, Buddy's group played pretty fast (tempo) and was in the top quartile while this years team plays much slower (bottom third of the country). Also, Buddy's group (as good as they were) struggled with turnovers at times and this year's team takes very good care of the ball consistently. But pertinent to this discussion, Buddy's team defended the 3 fairly well while this year's team has had their struggles at times. I'm hoping with the improvement that we've seen.....that those struggles are becoming fewer and farther between.

 

[tmeyer3307]

This will be a very unpopular view, but Spangler was not a particularly good offensive player against good competition. He started each season strong but would struggle as the season went on and the competition improved. Kur and Manek have guarded plenty of post players with better offensive games than Spangler.

The FF team had the best player in America and was definitely the better offensive team. This team is much deeper and has developed a defensive identity and toughness. There isn’t an NBA player on this team, let alone a high lottery pick like Buddy. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t a lot of fun to watch or that they can’t make a run in the tournament.

This team is very fun to watch, because of the fight/dawg in them. Skill wise they aren't all that close to the other group. I do remember that about Spangler, but man he brought it defensively every night.. take him on that end over Kuath/Manek all day. Offensively I'd give the edge to Manek for most of his career, not this year though.

 

[vbdad]

Spangler would get worn down rebounding and defending. His offense disappeared because he was exhausted.

 

[skyvue]

This team is very fun to watch, because of the fight/dawg in them. Skill wise they aren't all that close to the other group. I do remember that about Spangler, but man he brought it defensively every night.. take him on that end over Kuath/Manek all day. Offensively I'd give the edge to Manek for most of his career, not this year though.

Manek's fall-off offensively has been overstated, in my opinion (especially considering his health issues). He averaged 10, 12 and 14 points per game in his first three seasons, respectively, while this season he's averaging 11 ppg. His points-per-minute-played averages are .428, .441, .473 and .434.

Spangler averaged 10 ppg all three seasons, with points-per-minute averages of .328, .312 and .309.

 

[NickZepp]

The offensive talent on the 2016 team was better on top but that team wasn't as deep or as good defensively. However this team lacks the ability to score as that team consistently. I think Reaves would be as good as Cousins or Woodard was that year. If Buddy were on this team they would probably be undefeated right now.

 

[NickZepp]

Manek's fall-off offensively has been overstated, in my opinion (especially considering his health issues). He averaged 10, 12 and 14 points per game in his first three seasons, respectively, while this season he's averaging 11 ppg. His points-per-minute-played averages are .428, .441, .473 and .434.

Spangler averaged 10 ppg all three seasons, with points-per-minute averages of .328, .312 and .309.

Spangler was just way better rebounder and defender though and probably miles above anyone on post defensively we've got now. And Spangler didn't have to do that much offensively with Woodard, Cousins, Buddy scoring around 50 points per game between the 3.

 

[skyvue]

I wasn't trying to criticize Spangler's offense; I loved the guy and would love to have him on this team. I just think Manek's offensive "downturn" has been overstated. There's not a single season of their careers, including this one, that Manek isn't better offensively, but that's no knock on Spangler.

 

[NickZepp]

I wasn't trying to criticize Spangler's offense; I loved the guy and would love to have him on this team. I just think Manek's offensive "downturn" has been overstated. There's not a single season of their careers, including this one, that Manek isn't better offensively, but that's no knock on Spangler.

Manek is a good shooter and good offensive player. But if he's on a team with 3 guards scoring 50 points and a lot of that outside, he isn't getting as many looks from 3.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[hoopsaustin]

The offensive talent on the 2016 team was better on top but that team wasn't as deep or as good defensively. However this team lacks the ability to score as that team consistently. I think Reaves would be as good as Cousins or Woodard was that year. If Buddy were on this team they would probably be undefeated right now.

If doolittle had redshirted, we may be hanging a natty banner this year..

 

[pnkranger]

If doolittle had redshirted, we may be hanging a natty banner this year..

We would be pushing Baylor at a bare minimum.

 

[WichitaSooner]

If doolittle had redshirted, we may be hanging a natty banner this year..

The only caveat is that if he was still here, from a roster standpoint, it’s unlikely we would have been able to bring in the two transfers. But still fascinating to think about. Although Gonzaga and Baylor are both so outrageously good ...

 

[Swans]

If doolittle had redshirted, we may be hanging a natty banner this year..

If he had redshirted, he’d be eligible to come back next year.

 

[MichaelM]

I was going to make an argument that Cousins was better than Reaves based purely on 3P% (Cousins >40%, Reaves <25%). Then I dug a little more. Reaves is so much better at scoring inside the arc and at getting to the line that it's not even really close. Cousins had a 50.6% true shooting percent, which includes all those numbers. Reaves? 57.7%.

That's not Buddy Hield territory (a scorching 66.5%), but it's pretty good for a point guard who can't hit a three.

 

[NickZepp]

I was going to make an argument that Cousins was better than Reaves based purely on 3P% (Cousins >40%, Reaves <25%). Then I dug a little more. Reaves is so much better at scoring inside the arc and at getting to the line that it's not even really close. Cousins had a 50.6% true shooting percent, which includes all those numbers. Reaves? 57.7%.

That's not Buddy Hield territory (a scorching 66.5%), but it's pretty good for a point guard who can't hit a three.

Reaves may be the slightly better than Cousins/Woodard but he's nowhere near Buddy's level. I'm not sure Harmon is as good as Woodard/Cousins either.

 

[pnkranger]

Reaves may be the slightly better than Cousins/Woodard but he's nowhere near Buddy's level. I'm not sure Harmon is as good as Woodard/Cousins either.

Harmon is definitely on par with Woodard. Very similar players. Woodard was a great 3 point shooter that year, but it had a lot to do with Buddy. Everyone was willing to let Woodard shoot open 3s instead of Buddy, and he cashed in. Harmon is a better defender, but Woodard had him on offensive production that year.

Reaves is a much better player than Cousins and Woodard. Better scorer, better facilitator, better rebounder, and equal defender to Cousins.

Cousins was a better shooter...but otherwise, Reaves is a superior player.