Magic Johnson as a General Manager

[Sooner04]

I don't think Ingram or Ball are motivated enough to be anything more than shrug players in the Association. If you're depending on either of them to be key contributors then you're looking at a very low ceiling.

Meanwhile, I think Kuzma has a chance to develop into a really good contributor. A notch below the elite Western Conference guards, but a really good player.

In closing, I'm a Sonics fan, so I've enjoyed watching the Buss children torpedo this once proud franchise. I know it won't last, but I'm enjoying watching the pile of old tires burn.

 

[Eielson]

NO will be laughed out of town if they take that. Like I said above, that package of players is worth less now than it was when it was offered the first time around. And let's be clear, while the LA pick is lottery, it's still outside the top 10. Limits it's worth, IMO.

They had a different GM at the time, and he refused to deal with LA under any circumstances. Different people involved this time around, and many in the organization are upset Demps didn't do the deal.

If the Knicks get the first pick (or even if it's top 3), that would be a pretty darn good trade chip if they are able to lure KD and KI, trading that pick for Davis would make A LOT of sense.

If the Knicks win the Zion sweepstakes, they will become one team LA is worried about. Possibly the only one.

Even if Tatum isn't included, Jaylen Brown has more upside than Ball/Ingram, and at least as much as Kuz if not more. Boston has the Memphis pick they could deal this year or next which is likely better than LA's pick. The Williams big man Boston drafted last year has some upside that teams are said to like. They could move one of Smart or Hayward. Maybe Rozier (restricted FA I believe).

This is painful to read. You're really going to clown on Ball and Ingram, and in the same post praise guys like Brown, Williams, Smart, and Rozier? Thinking Hayward has trade value is absolutely delusional. He hasn't been the same since snapping his leg in half, and he's making 30M a year to come off the bench. That's the opposite of trade value.

 

[Eielson]

I don't think Ingram or Ball are motivated enough to be anything more than shrug players in the Association. If you're depending on either of them to be key contributors then you're looking at a very low ceiling.

For whatever reasons, trashing LA's young players is the cool thing to do in the media. We saw it for several years with Russell and Randle. Now they're on new teams, and despite the fact that they're doing pretty much the same thing in different jerseys, everybody is now praising them.

Nobody wants to respect Lonzo's defense, but the evidence is there. He was 3rd for DRPM among PG's as a rookie, and top 10 among all players averaging 30 minutes or more per game. He followed that up as #7 this year. Everything about this kid screams Jason Kidd, and it's no coincidence that he'll be on the bench to coach Lonzo this year.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2018/sort/DRPM/position/1
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1

I don't get the hate for Ingram, either. He's a perfect player in this age of positionless basketball, as he can play 1-4 on both ends of the court. His team defense isn't on par with Lonzo yet, but he's shown the skill to be an elite 1 on 1 defender. After the all-star break, he came out on fire before being shut down for the year. He was averaging 27.8 points on 57% shooting and 7.5 boards post-break. I know it's a small sample size, but he's 21. His time will come.

 

[WTSooner]

They had a different GM at the time, and he refused to deal with LA under any circumstances. Different people involved this time around, and many in the organization are upset Demps didn't do the deal.

Nonsense. He tried dealing with them, then got unhappy that they were leaking info. And the ONLY reason I've heard anybody for NO might have been unhappy was b/c it created a weird situation for the rest of the year, plus the injury risk. Had nothing to do with the package LA offered.

This is painful to read. You're really going to clown on Ball and Ingram, and in the same post praise guys like Brown, Williams, Smart, and Rozier? Thinking Hayward has trade value is absolutely delusional. He hasn't been the same since snapping his leg in half, and he's making 30M a year to come off the bench. That's the opposite of trade value.

Hayward absolutely has trade value. Maybe not as much right now, b/c he is going to be much better next year. And guess what? His PER this year was higher than Kuz, Ingram, or Ball. Brown's was right on par with Kuz/Ingram. Rozier's last year, when he actually got to play and play in a role suited for him, his PER was higher than any of those three Lakers' was this year.

None of Kuz, Ingram, or Ball have ever put up even a league average PER (15.00) for any season. Seven seasons worth of below league average combined. Hayward was above it this season. He'll be better next year. Rozier was above it last year when he got regular PT. Tatum has been above it in both of his seasons. Williams is above it, though he hasn't played significant enough minutes for that to really mean anything.

So yeah, if you don't think Boston can beat any offer LA puts out there, I don't know what to tell you. Most everybody familiar with the NBA has been saying the same. It's why NO waited to trade him.

 

[Eielson]

Hayward absolutely has trade value. Maybe not as much right now, b/c he is going to be much better next year. And guess what? His PER this year was higher than Kuz, Ingram, or Ball. Brown's was right on par with Kuz/Ingram. Rozier's last year, when he actually got to play and play in a role suited for him, his PER was higher than any of those three Lakers' was this year.

You're failing to comprehend even the basics of trade value. Not only does Hayward have no trade value, you'd likely have to attach a lottery pick to get somebody to take on his salary. Whether he's as good or better than Ball and Ingram doesn't matter. He's a 29 year old getting paid 67M over the next two seasons to come off the bench. He was a shell of his former self last year, and even if he regained his previous form (which is highly unlikely), he'd only have trade value to a select few teams under that contract. Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma, and Josh Hart will make a combined 20M next year. Hayward is making 32M. Let that sink in. This is the NBA -- not the MLB. There's a salary cap.

 

[Eielson]

And I've never said the Celtics COULD not beat the Lakers offer. I said they WOULD not.

 

[WTSooner]

You're failing to comprehend even the basics of trade value. Not only does Hayward have no trade value, you'd likely have to attach a lottery pick to get somebody to take on his salary. Whether he's as good or better than Ball and Ingram doesn't matter. He's a 29 year old getting paid 67M over the next two seasons to come off the bench. He was a shell of his former self last year, and even if he regained his previous form (which is highly unlikely), he'd only have trade value to a select few teams under that contract. Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma, and Josh Hart will make a combined 20M next year. Hayward is making 32M. Let that sink in. This is the NBA -- not the MLB. There's a salary cap.

I just threw Hayward in as an option. IF Boston were to trade for Davis, they'd need SOMEBODY with salary to send back, and he'd be an option, AND NO could absorb him. Easily. What they did with him after that is their choice. But I'd be careful in saying he has no value. There were some online articles the other day suggesting otherwise. But you are right that at that salary, there are limited teams that could get a deal done.

 

[WTSooner]

And I've never said the Celtics COULD not beat the Lakers offer. I said they WOULD not.

Did you? Or did you say the Celtics wouldn't offer Tatum unless Davis said he'd sign long-term? Not really the same thing, no?

 

[Eielson]

Did you? Or did you say the Celtics wouldn't offer Tatum unless Davis said he'd sign long-term? Not really the same thing, no?

Davis won't give assurances, so yes, it is the same thing. He wouldn't give assurances before, and if Kyrie leaves, that's only going to make it worse. If Kyrie leaves, and Boston gives up Tatum, Brown, Hayward, and a lottery pick, what does that leave? AD would be just as well off staying in NO. The only way Boston pulls off this deal:

1. Kyrie resigns.
2. They include an overwhelming number of picks (something like 4-5 first rounders) to keep Tatum out of the deal.
3. AD gives an indication he'll strongly consider staying.

#2 is completely in Boston's control and the only thing that has an above 50% chance of happening. Kyrie's odds of resigning are looking worse by the day. #3 ultimately kills the deal.

Boston is a long-shot.

 

[Eielson]

Great night for LA. Got #4, NY fell to 3, and Boston didn't get Memphis' pick this year.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

Great night for LA. Got #4, NY fell to 3, and Boston didn't get Memphis' pick this year.

Yep, options got better. Speaking of Boston, Rozier said he wants out. The locker room is a dumpster fire, and word is Kyrie and Hayward being crybabies is the cause. Their young players have many of the same issues the young Lakers have.

I agree about Ingram. He was playing his best NBA ball ever just before the injury, carrying the offense while LBJ was down. I know people love Kuz, and I like him also, especially for a 2nd round pick, but Ingram's ceiling is much higher. I actually think Playing with LBJ will have a positive impact on Ingram in time. None of the Laker kids have played with anyone resembling a champion, or a leader prior to LBJ coming to town.

The adjustment has been hard for everyone, but I believe LBJ will get the best out of them. Ball is working hard to get healthy, and he actually is slowly cutting his ties to his father's mess. He has already stepped away from the BBB shoe fiasco.

Randle and Rusell were great examples. You woulda thought they were both trash players when they were in LA, based on what the media said about them. Both are now playing at an all-star level. I actually hated when LA couldn't fit Randle in. I liked his game early on. Russell I understood at the time.

I believe things will turn for the best in LA sooner rather than later. Before LBJ went down the Lakers were sitting at 4 in the West. Most have forgotten that. Things cratered as they slumped, but they were probably a playoff team if he didn't get hurt, which was the goal when he arrived. Everyone knew it wouldn't be a one season turn around....

 

[WTSooner]

Yep, options got better. Speaking of Boston, Rozier said he wants out. The locker room is a dumpster fire, and word is Kyrie and Hayward being crybabies is the cause. Their young players have many of the same issues the young Lakers have.

Please show me one article/report/tweet that says Hayward is a cry baby?

Irving? Sure. Boston fans have hated the way he's been all season. Dude isn't a leader. Isn't an alpha. Doesn't play team ball. That is why MOST Celtics' fans want Ainge to just let him walk (or trade him). Rozier, Brown, Tatum.....all had issues playing with Irving this year. It's no coincidence the team went on a playoff run last year without him.

But Hayward? The only thing I've heard about him is that some of the team didn't like that he was handed a starting spot to begin the season, when he clearly wasn't back to 100%. But that isn't on Hayward, and certainly doesn't make him a cry baby.

There were definitely clubhouse issues this year. That is why I think there is really only two options. You either let Kyrie walk, and build around the rest of the roster, or you keep Kyrie and move a bunch of other guys that weren't happy playing with him. Personally, I don't see Boston winning a championship with Kyrie (probably not even with Kyrie and Davis), so I'd prefer we just move on from him. Probably means taking a small step back next year, but I'm fine with that.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

Please show me one article/report/tweet that says Hayward is a cry baby?

Irving? Sure. Boston fans have hated the way he's been all season. Dude isn't a leader. Isn't an alpha. Doesn't play team ball. That is why MOST Celtics' fans want Ainge to just let him walk (or trade him). Rozier, Brown, Tatum.....all had issues playing with Irving this year. It's no coincidence the team went on a playoff run last year without him.

But Hayward? The only thing I've heard about him is that some of the team didn't like that he was handed a starting spot to begin the season, when he clearly wasn't back to 100%. But that isn't on Hayward, and certainly doesn't make him a cry baby.

There were definitely clubhouse issues this year. That is why I think there is really only two options. You either let Kyrie walk, and build around the rest of the roster, or you keep Kyrie and move a bunch of other guys that weren't happy playing with him. Personally, I don't see Boston winning a championship with Kyrie (probably not even with Kyrie and Davis), so I'd prefer we just move on from him. Probably means taking a small step back next year, but I'm fine with that.

https://www.businessinsider.com/terry-rozier-comments-kyrie-irving-celtics-season-2019-5

Maybe crybaby wasn't the right word for either player, but it's obvious the young guys weren't connecting with Kyrie or Hayward. I follow numerous NBA reporters on IG, and the consensus is the players don't wanna play with Kyrie. Not 100% an indictment of Hayward or Kyrie, but it sounds similar to what LA dealt with trying to integrate LBJ with a bunch of young players. Boston's young guys know they made it farther last yr without either of those guys, so they felt some resentment towards management for making everything about those 2 players. We all know it can be a coaching or management decision, but the players still develop animosity for each other.

Most Celtic fans enjoyed watching the Lakers struggle this year, and enjoyed the every day reports about LBJ and the young kids not getting along, and the same things were going on in Boston, which is common in most locker rooms today. It's the climate of current professional athletes and the me first, all about me mentality. Kyrie should have remained with LBJ in Cleveland. He's a great talent, but not a leader. From what I've heard about Hayward he is a pretty good guy and teammate. I believe he gave up on Utah to soon....

 

[Eielson]

Randle and Rusell were great examples. You woulda thought they were both trash players when they were in LA, based on what the media said about them. Both are now playing at an all-star level. I actually hated when LA couldn't fit Randle in. I liked his game early on. Russell I understood at the time.

Lots of people criticize the Lakers for the Russell trade, but it was an expertly crafted deal. As everybody knows, that cap space cleared led to the Lebron signing, which would warrant moving Russell by itself. The part most people overlook is that Russell is eligible to start making 27M next year. Even had the Deng/Mozgov disaster never happened, I would still take Kuzma at 2M over Russell at 27M, seeing as Kemba and Kyrie can be had for a little bit more in free agency. The deal helped both teams.

I believe things will turn for the best in LA sooner rather than later. Before LBJ went down the Lakers were sitting at 4 in the West. Most have forgotten that. Things cratered as they slumped, but they were probably a playoff team if he didn't get hurt, which was the goal when he arrived. Everyone knew it wouldn't be a one season turn around....

Exactly. That's why I've been telling people if all the Lakers do is sign Kemba/Butler/Klay and keep the first rounder, they'll be able to compete with anybody except Golden State. And if KD leaves, they might be able to compete with GS, even. The biggest issue is staying healthy. They don't have to sign Kyrie/Kawhi or trade for AD to be one of the better teams in the league.

 

[Eielson]

Irving? Sure. Boston fans have hated the way he's been all season. Dude isn't a leader. Isn't an alpha. Doesn't play team ball. That is why MOST Celtics' fans want Ainge to just let him walk (or trade him). Rozier, Brown, Tatum.....all had issues playing with Irving this year. It's no coincidence the team went on a playoff run last year without him.

No alpha? The man is an NBA champion. Absolutely torched Steph to get it. Boston didn't live up to expectations, so Boston has thrown him under the bus as a scapegoat. He has played great basketball all year. He's not the issue.

Boston had a nice little run last year in a sorry conference. Eastern conference teams were just fighting for the opportunity to get swept by the Western Conference champs. Boston would have gotten bounced in the first round in the West. The East got a lot stronger this year, and that's the reason Boston didn't go as far. Not Kyrie.

 

[Sooner04]

No alpha? The man is an NBA champion. Absolutely torched Steph to get it. Boston didn't live up to expectations, so Boston has thrown him under the bus as a scapegoat. He has played great basketball all year. He's not the issue.

Sometimes I wonder if we're watching the same games. I must value chemistry a bit more than you. Irving is the me-est of me players. He can torpedo the locker room dynamic like no other.

Hell, he was pissed LeBron was coming back to Cleveland even though they were losing 50+ games every year on his watch. I wouldn't want that guy as dog catcher, let alone my top guard.

Guy's got the best set of handles I've ever seen, though. Maybe he never recovers from that deviated septum.

 

[WTSooner]

Sometimes I wonder if we're watching the same games. I must value chemistry a bit more than you. Irving is the me-est of me players. He can torpedo the locker room dynamic like no other.

Hell, he was pissed LeBron was coming back to Cleveland even though they were losing 50+ games every year on his watch. I wouldn't want that guy as dog catcher, let alone my top guard.

Guy's got the best set of handles I've ever seen, though. Maybe he never recovers from that deviated septum.

Pretty much how I see it. It "worked" in Cleveland b/c he was playing with one of the all time greats who was in his prime, on a roster tailored to his his style (and Lebron's). East was also weaker during a large portion of that time.

And agree with you on his handles. But in the locker room, in tough games, the dude just isn't a team guy. He was a terrible fit with all that young Boston talent. He held them back. They played better even in the games he missed just this year.

I kind of hope he goes to the Lakers, b/c I don't think he and older Lebron can rekindle what they once had. I don't think they duplicate that in LA.

 

[WTSooner]

No alpha? The man is an NBA champion. Absolutely torched Steph to get it. Boston didn't live up to expectations, so Boston has thrown him under the bus as a scapegoat. He has played great basketball all year. He's not the issue.

Boston had a nice little run last year in a sorry conference. Eastern conference teams were just fighting for the opportunity to get swept by the Western Conference champs. Boston would have gotten bounced in the first round in the West. The East got a lot stronger this year, and that's the reason Boston didn't go as far. Not Kyrie.

Klay Thompson has a few Championships. Is he capable of winning one while being the alpha (best player), or is he a REALLY good player that has benefited from playing alongside Curry and Durant?

It's not just Boston that has thrown him under the bus. Most NBA personalities (ex-players, media, talking heads) have said the same thing. And for those guys to throw a guy like KI under the bus, that is telling. Doesn't mean he isn't a good player, but dude can kill chemistry like no other.

 

[WTSooner]

Exactly. That's why I've been telling people if all the Lakers do is sign Kemba/Butler/Klay and keep the first rounder, they'll be able to compete with anybody except Golden State. And if KD leaves, they might be able to compete with GS, even. The biggest issue is staying healthy. They don't have to sign Kyrie/Kawhi or trade for AD to be one of the better teams in the league.

Klay isn't going to LA. That dude is staying in GS, probably even moreso since I expect KD to move on. Butler wouldn't help much. Dude is overrated. Kemba would be solid, but unless you are trading for Davis (thus moving Ball), what is the point?

We'll see what happens. LA has a lot of options, but I'm guessing when the smoke settles, most LA fans will be underwhelmed. I personally link Lebron's game is going to start trending down moreso than others seem to think. I think he'll also start battling injuries the rest of his career. A LOT of miles that on big, heavy body of his. His kids are getting older. He's won a bunch. Motivation could start declining too.

I think Durant is moving on to either the Knicks or the Nets. I think Kyrie either follows him or joins the Lakers. I expect Klay to stay with GS. Doesn't really matter what Butler does. Davis is the guy that I'm not sure about. I think the Knicks can afford to trade for Davis and sign both KD and Irving if I recall.

 

[Eielson]

Sometimes I wonder if we're watching the same games. I must value chemistry a bit more than you. Irving is the me-est of me players. He can torpedo the locker room dynamic like no other.

Hell, he was pissed LeBron was coming back to Cleveland even though they were losing 50+ games every year on his watch. I wouldn't want that guy as dog catcher, let alone my top guard.

Guy's got the best set of handles I've ever seen, though. Maybe he never recovers from that deviated septum.

I guarantee that you value chemistry more than me. Chemistry is just that BS term that people use when teams exceed or don't live up to expectations. "Chemistry" is often just a way of saying luck, overlooked/underrated, or good matchup/gameplan. Chemistry exists to some extent, but it's not this easily quantifiable or predictable thing people make it out to be. Steph and Klay have undeniable chemistry, but more importantly, they're two of the best shooters of all-time. That's what really matters.

The Lakers won 3 straight championships with Shaq and Kobe with virtually no chemistry whatsoever. Sure, maybe they'd have won more than 3 with a little bit of chemistry, but an ounce of talent is worth a pound of chemistry. It sounds like the situation in Cleveland was similar.

Speaking of the Lakers, there's not a single accusation being thrown at Kyrie that wasn't being thrown at Kobe. 5-time NBA Champion, Kobe Bryant.