Mulkey Transferring

[sybarite]

Long and complex military history. Discharges from Navy, Air Force and Army.

Went to OU on a Naval ROTC scholarship and yes I was also drafted. Was in the military for 12 years.

Did you notice all of the kids who were NOT drafted?

 

[SoonerSpock]

Mostly draftees but also a fair share of volunteers especially in officers candidate school. Now that you mention it I would support the implementation of conscription again. I would tweak it to include a hitch in both the military and community service fulfilled consecutively.

A program similar to the present national guard/reserves with one year community service immediately following active military duty and 5 years inactive reserve status (no summer camp or monthly meeting) to follow.

Not a big proponent of the volunteer military service. Only the kids of the poor have to fight the battles and they are in the military because other opportunites are so few. Would like to see most of the fat cat kids have to step up and pay their fair share to protect this country.

But it is a complex problem that is not easily fixed. Most definitely not on this thread.

 

[sybarite]

Mostly draftees but also a fair share of volunteers especially in officers candidate school. Now that you mention it I would support the implementation of conscription again. I would tweak it to include a hitch in both the military and community service fulfilled consecutively.

A program similar to the present national guard/reserves with one year community service immediately following active military duty and 5 years inactive reserve status (no summer camp or monthly meeting) to follow.

Not a big proponent of the volunteer military service. Only the kids of the poor have to fight the battles and they are in the military because other opportunites are so few. Would like to see most of the fat cat kids have to step up and pay their fair share to protect this country.

But it is a complex problem that is not easily fixed. Most definitely not on this thread.

I watched too many kids with parents with some political power (be it simply that they were on the local draft board) end up not being drafted. It also seemed that a bit of political power could overcome the fact that the reserves and National Guard, neither of which were active at the time of the draft, were closed, and some rich kids ended up getting into the Guard. Poor kids ended up in Nam. Until you get rid of political influence, I oppose a draft.

 

[SoonerSpock]

I watched too many kids with parents with some political power (be it simply that they were on the local draft board) end up not being drafted. It also seemed that a bit of political power could overcome the fact that the reserves and National Guard, neither of which were active at the time of the draft, were closed, and some rich kids ended up getting into the Guard. Poor kids ended up in Nam. Until you get rid of political influence, I oppose a draft.

One can definitely argue both sides of that equation. But to rid oneself of political influence I suggest death. In a free society one use his circumstances to his advantage and that includes power.

I would submit that a higher percentage of the military is comprised today of poor kids than it was in the Nam era. And I base that on the two dozen plus kids I went to college with that were killed in Nam plus the many I met in the military that came from middle class homes and did not survive Nam.

 

[sybarite]

One can definitely argue both sides of that equation. But to rid oneself of political influence I suggest death. In a free society one use his circumstances to his advantage and that includes power.

I would submit that a higher percentage of the military is comprised today of poor kids than it was in the Nam era. And I base that on the two dozen plus kids I went to college with that were killed in Nam plus the many I met in the military that came from middle class homes and did not survive Nam.

And, what I noticed was that if a relative was on the draft board, sons, nephews, and cousins didn't seem to get drafted. Then, I look at a historical perspective in which nearly every political leader had served in some capacity (rarely as an enlisted man). Now, I see a lot of guys who evaded the draft are in congress and the white house while those who couldn't are buried. I also see a congress that has reduced the quality of the GI Bill because veterans no longer are the majority.

 

[inoref]

Did Nancy Mulkey get drafted ? Maybe she headed off to Canada
There must be some kind of way outta here
Said the joker to the thief
There's too much confusion
I can't get no relief

 

[SoonerSpock]

And, what I noticed was that if a relative was on the draft board, sons, nephews, and cousins didn't seem to get drafted. Then, I look at a historical perspective in which nearly every political leader had served in some capacity (rarely as an enlisted man). Now, I see a lot of guys who evaded the draft are in congress and the white house while those who couldn't are buried. I also see a congress that has reduced the quality of the GI Bill because veterans no longer are the majority.

One definitely cannot dispute the failure of congress to attempt to do anything for the betterment of the country or mankind. Too damn many extremist that think their way is the only way while the masses await their leaders to meet in the middle and get some kind of consensus.

Taking two steps forward and one step backwards is far superior to burying one's head in the sand and forgoing the look for solutions that better most and optimally please none.

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

Long and complex military history. Discharges from Navy, Air Force and Army.

Went to OU on a Naval ROTC scholarship and yes I was also drafted. Was in the military for 12 years.

What was Omaha Beach like?

 

[SoonerSpock]

What was Omaha Beach like?

Wasn't a beach it was a river bed.

 

[SoonerinNC]

Went through Army ROTC at OU and served two years at Fort Sill. Hadn't marched a step when I went to my first drill and shortly had a couple of cadet officers banging my eardrums. Probably would have put today's kids into a hot search for a safe zone.

I too advocate mandatory service. One of the best experiences in my life. Really developed a sense of discipline and responsibility. Military training programs were vastly superior to anything in our education system. I had two marine instructors in my basic artillery course that were phenomenal.

On the subject of Dungee and Mulkey I am shocked. Seemed like we had a kumbayah environment on the team. But apparently one left because she hated the other and then the other left too. Leaves a lot of unanswered questions. I was concerned about the poor development of the recruiting class that we picked up the seniors from. Now we have key players who were looking at solid playing time leaving. What gives.

 

[Sooner04]

I've dreamed of being a naval officer since I was a little kid. Couldn't get my folks to sign off on it, and never had the guts to follow through with it on my own. Single biggest regret of my life. I'm all for mandatory service because I know how much it would've helped me.

Took several classes inside the Armory on the Navy ROTC side while at OU. Some of the best instruction I received, and definitely the most interesting "professors."

 

[MsProudSooner]

I've always thought that everyone, men and women, could benefit from at least one year of national service. It wouldn't have to be the military - just something where they worked to make this country better.

 

[scrybe]

Wasn't a beach it was a river bed.

???

 

[SoonerSpock]

???

Located slightly northeast of Lincoln. Just a silly response to a silly question. I was 11 months old when the Omaha Beach landing occurred on Normandy.

 

[SoonerSpock]

I've always thought that everyone, men and women, could benefit from at least one year of national service. It wouldn't have to be the military - just something where they worked to make this country better.

While I think that the service portion is most vital I think that everyone should have to serve in an environment where they are given orders they have to follow with consequences if they do not. To my knowledge that can best be accomplished in a military environment as their system knows how to get the desired end most efficiently. With the added benefit that all have to perform their duty defending this country.

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

Located slightly northeast of Lincoln. Just a silly response to a silly question. I was 11 months old when the Omaha Beach landing occurred on Normandy.

Since the draft was eliminated when I was young I just figured you'd seen action in all the big ones.

 

[SoonerSpock]

Since the draft was eliminated when I was young I just figured you'd seen action in all the big ones.

Had I been born in 1926 or before I might have made Omaha Beach. But my dad was in the Normandy invasion just not at Omaha Beach.

 

[sybarite]

First: the draft was used inappropriately, both in that people of power were permitted to avoid the draft and that it was frequently used to punish those who objected to its existence. The name of Hershey is not beloved to those who were drafted, and it had nothing to do with chocolate bars.

I would never tolerate a draft unless: 1. everyone must serve regardless of gender, marital situation, or physical problems, 2. anyone who does not serve is never permitted to serve as an elected official or hold a government contract.

Learning to take orders has little to do with what is learned in the Army. The Army is an effective instructor, primarily because they march trainees by the stockade every day as a reminder of the consequences of disobedience. But, the thing that lasts beyond the time of service is the effect of being government issue.

From the first day, the military removes identity. Your head is shaved. It has nothing to do with lice or health. It has everything to do with the fact that individual hair or beard styles provides identity. Individual identity is removed. The trainee has no name and states his service number (now Social Security Number) as he enters the mess hall. You are in a uniform, have the same hair style, and perform all acts together. You are not called by name, and everyone is "Trainee." You do learn to work together, and if you fail to cooperate, your associates will remind you of their displeasure since they also pay the price for your failures. The identity is subjugated to that of the group, and you do learn to operate within the confines of a group and for the purposes of a group. With two or three years of operating in this manner, you do learn a bit more about functioning in a society, although some have difficulty adjusting it to the civilian world. But, it isn't coming from the top. It is learned by peer review.

We could benefit from some sort of national service, especially since it might also provide job training as well as deal with some infrastructure problems. But, I don't know about making this many available to the military---the smaller the better. And, I am very reluctant to provide any mechanism that allows some to profit by avoiding service while others have their lives interrupted or even terminated by service. You would have to prove that you had a situation where no person ever became President who had not been an enlisted man.

 

[SoonerSpock]

First: the draft was used inappropriately, both in that people of power were permitted to avoid the draft and that it was frequently used to punish those who objected to its existence. The name of Hershey is not beloved to those who were drafted, and it had nothing to do with chocolate bars.

I would never tolerate a draft unless: 1. everyone must serve regardless of gender, marital situation, or physical problems, 2. anyone who does not serve is never permitted to serve as an elected official or hold a government contract.

Learning to take orders has little to do with what is learned in the Army. The Army is an effective instructor, primarily because they march trainees by the stockade every day as a reminder of the consequences of disobedience. But, the thing that lasts beyond the time of service is the effect of being government issue.

From the first day, the military removes identity. Your head is shaved. It has nothing to do with lice or health. It has everything to do with the fact that individual hair or beard styles provides identity. Individual identity is removed. The trainee has no name and states his service number (now Social Security Number) as he enters the mess hall. You are in a uniform, have the same hair style, and perform all acts together. You are not called by name, and everyone is "Trainee." You do learn to work together, and if you fail to cooperate, your associates will remind you of their displeasure since they also pay the price for your failures. The identity is subjugated to that of the group, and you do learn to operate within the confines of a group and for the purposes of a group. With two or three years of operating in this manner, you do learn a bit more about functioning in a society, although some have difficulty adjusting it to the civilian world. But, it isn't coming from the top. It is learned by peer review.

We could benefit from some sort of national service, especially since it might also provide job training as well as deal with some infrastructure problems. But, I don't know about making this many available to the military---the smaller the better. And, I am very reluctant to provide any mechanism that allows some to profit by avoiding service while others have their lives interrupted or even terminated by service. You would have to prove that you had a situation where no person ever became President who had not been an enlisted man.

Your obviously served in a very different military than did I or at least have a very different perspective of what the military provides individuals. Reading between the lines I seem to be hearing you say I only would want the mandatory military in a very idealistic form where the system works perfectly fair for all individuals at all times. I think they call that utopia and in life the only utopia I know of is death.

To perceive any system similar to what you describe seeks to void all the ills of a free/capitalistic society were each individual endeavors to better himself through his own efforts. Given that is not going away in our society one must realize that all systems in our culture have those that profit and those that fail primarily dependent upon their own efforts. Others are victims of power achieved through the efforts to climb the ladder. In our country that is the way of life by design.In a free society things are not fair as all vulnerabilities are exploited.

No military officer could be President? Only enlisted men? Personally your description of what you would want makes me want to ask you the same question Frazier Crane asked Cliff Clavin on Cheers. What color is the sky in your world?

Manipulating circumstances to maintain a perfectly level playing field at all times would destroy the motivation of individuals to better themselves through their own efforts. Not logical to destroy the opportunity for the magnitudes to help the those that want the benefits of efforts without expending such for themselves.

Our focus should be only on helping those that cannot help themselves and to provide opportunity for only those that want to and will help themselves. For those that want to squander opportunity without effort let them wallow in their own self pity. Life is not fair nor will it ever be totally.

This is a basketball board. Time to leave this discussion to a political board. My bad for making my initial comment that started such. I am out.

 

[sybarite]

I agree that it is inappropriate to have a political discussion on this board, and I am most pleased to see it end.

I do want it on record that democracy is the, as yet, unrealized Utopian dream of equal treatment and opportunity while the antithesis is from preferential treatment.