Ok State - KU

[CarlWeathers]

i don't think anyone can argue that matt pilgrim, while an excellent rebounder, is just plain dumb.

Kind of funny when osu plays KU as good as any team in this conference yet is called dumb because of one play. A win would have been great, but would not have gained us a bid. I can handle losing like that. OSU out shot KU in every category and was outrebounded by 4. Pretty dumb .

 

[TheGimper]

Not every coach is as poor as evaluator and handler of egos as Capel is!

True. Not everyone can get quality rapists like Travis Ford.

 

[JBaker]

i don't think anyone can argue that matt pilgrim, while an excellent rebounder, is just plain dumb.

Kind of funny when osu plays KU as good as any team in this conference yet is called dumb because of one play. A win would have been great, but would not have gained us a bid. I can handle losing like that. OSU out shot KU in every category and was outrebounded by 4. Pretty dumb .

Congratulations on your moral victory.

Can't wait to see the one point loss to Kansas banner you guys will hang in the offseason.

 

[BigTime]

Not every coach is as poor as evaluator and handler of egos as Capel is!

We will see how Napoleon does with his first great ego test. Johnson would have absolutely made it an ego/attitude nightmare.

 

[Dignon003]

We will see how Napoleon does with his first great ego test. Johnson would have absolutely made it an ego/attitude nightmare.

I think Ford will be fine here. Still need to find a late big man though.

 

[perryj74]

Ok I know this is a bit of a conspiracy here but why do Self's team always seem to lay an egg against OsU away from home?

 

[oSuJeff97]

Teams tend to look dumb when they get T'd up twice for taunting in the same half. Or your best interior defender repeatedly picks up cheap fouls 40 feet from the basket or completely off the ball. Or your PG makes 2 clutch FT's to put you ahead by 1 with 18 seconds left then immediately fouls in the backcourt when all the other team is trying to do is get the ball to halfcourt and call a timeout.

I will grant you that there's no question that Pilgrim isn't a smart player. He's made a career out of boneheaded/totally unnecessary fouls.

But the other two things you mentioned were the direct result of youth (Brown taunting) and/or inexperience (Dowell stupid play vs. A&M).

Do you think either of those guys will do something like that again? (That was actually the first time I've seen Brown do ANYTHING like that this year. He's normally very understated on the court.)

It's no different than the stupid play Eaton made when he was a freshman trying to draw a foul against Terrell Everett 50 feet from the basket with time running down.

Young and/or inexperienced guys make stupid plays from time to time. That's the way it is.

I tend to think that Brown, Olukemi and Dowell will be just fine next year, given their solid improvement throughout this season.

And I'll stand by my reasoning that all teams look a lot "smarter" when they have a guy who can really run the point. Again I'll point out the Baylor example.

 

[IntenseDefense]

But the other two things you mentioned were the direct result of youth (Brown taunting) and/or inexperience (Dowell stupid play vs. A&M).

Do you think either of those guys will do something like that again? (That was actually the first time I've seen Brown do ANYTHING like that this year. He's normally very understated on the court.)

I noticed two instances of Brown taunting during the OU/OSU game in Norman that weren't called. One time in particular was when Blair fouled out.

But, your main point is valid. I doubt he gets called for something like that again.

 

[perryj74]

This tends to be a pattern with Ford's teams at OsU. It wasn't that long ago that Ford could be heard on National TV calling Obi a "fu*king idiot" and there was a pretty good PG on that team.

 

[Dignon003]

I don't know which Brown folks have been watching. But he's always in the middle of it. It's one of the things I like about him.

 

[oSuJeff97]

This tends to be a pattern with Ford's teams at OsU. It wasn't that long ago that Ford could be heard on National TV calling Obi a "fu*king idiot" and there was a pretty good PG on that team.

What does this even mean?

Oh - you mean a coach was verbally abusing a player because he wasn't doing what the coach was telling him to do? I'm SHOCKED!

Obi was an excellent Big 12 basketball player who was a key contributor to two NCAA tournament teams... so again I'm not really sure what your point is.

And what "pattern" are you talking about?

This is only Ford's third season. The "pattern" with his first two teams was that they steadily improved throughout the year and peaked in March.

This team has more or less done that, but just doesn't have the horses that the past two years' teams had.

 

[stoops4pres]

Not every coach is as poor as evaluator and handler of egos as Capel is!

Regarding the evaluation of talent and ego's, Ford is certainly trending towards Capel's level. You could make an argument that its practically splitting hairs between the two... What have Ford's recruits done at this point? Basically nothing.

And we will see how he handles egos with Nash coming in.

Perhaps Ford's recruits will be better with more experience next year, but right now, an Ok. State fan has no room to talk about other coaches' inability to evaluate talent and ego's.

 

[HoHum]

Regarding the evaluation of talent and ego's, Ford is certainly trending towards Capel's level. You could make an argument that its practically splitting hairs between the two... What have Ford's recruits done at this point? Basically nothing.

And we will see how he handles egos with Nash coming in.

Perhaps Ford's recruits will be better with more experience next year, but right now, an Ok. State fan has no room to talk about other coaches' inability to evaluate talent and ego's.

I didn't say a thing about talent. Ford's '09 class has/had some obvious holes in it, that's clear.

I said egos, where has there been obvious issues with 'egos' on Ford's teams? There was (at least from what I've read on this board) massive problems with OU's team last season that in turn, because of all the defections, left this year's team (from what I've read on this board) very under talented.

Once again, I made the point (mostly in jest) about Ford's ability to handle egos vs Capel's. I don't think Ford has really had to deal with a huge amount yet, but it's silly to say that no coach has and that Nash's arrival on campus will present Ford with his first 'ego'. Every basketball team is going to have some ego issues. But, if the 09/10 season is any indication, Capel's ability to handle the egos isn't much to write home about.

We'll see about Ford, but most other teams with a McDonald's All-American (let alone 2...maybe 3 was Warren one?) do a hell of a lot better than 13-18. So, yeah, I'd say most coaches haven't had near the difficulties that Capel had, because I certainly think Capel's struggles are an outlier when coaching with a very talented team. And I don't believe that Mason-Griffin, Gallon and Warren were the most unholy abomination to team chemistry that NCAA basketball had ever seen either.

 

[Max Power]

I didn't say a thing about talent. Ford's '09 class has/had some obvious holes in it, that's clear.

I said egos, where has there been obvious issues with 'egos' on Ford's teams? There was (at least from what I've read on this board) massive problems with OU's team last season that in turn, because of all the defections, left this year's team (from what I've read on this board) very under talented.

Once again, I made the point (mostly in jest) about Ford's ability to handle egos vs Capel's. I don't think Ford has really had to deal with a huge amount yet, but it's silly to say that no coach has and that Nash's arrival on campus will present Ford with his first 'ego'. Every basketball team is going to have some ego issues. But, if the 09/10 season is any indication, Capel's ability to handle the egos isn't much to write home about.

We'll see about Ford, but most other teams with a McDonald's All-American (let alone 2...maybe 3 was Warren one?) do a hell of a lot better than 13-18. So, yeah, I'd say most coaches haven't had near the difficulties that Capel had, because I certainly think Capel's struggles are an outlier when coaching with a very talented team. And I don't believe that Mason-Griffin, Gallon and Warren were the most unholy abomination to team chemistry that NCAA basketball had ever seen either.

Warren was a McD AA

 

[stoops4pres]

I didn't say a thing about talent. Ford's '09 class has/had some obvious holes in it, that's clear.

I said egos

I understand you said egos, that's why I said next year will be a solid test of how Ford can handle an all-world player that (supposedly) has a higher and inflated opinion of himself. After all, that is mainly the criticism you are throwing out at Capel, for his misevaluation and mishandling of all-world ego's (Gallon, TMG).

And I never said that you were specifically talking about talent, I was just stating in general. I find it comical that Ok. State fans come here pimping Ford, when in all honesty he hasn't done anything with his own recruits. In fact, at this point I would contend he has been subpar in that department.

where has there been obvious issues with 'egos' on Ford's teams?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't there been quite a few suspensions and forced departures under Ford's watch? More than usual? Heck, Ford signed a guy that is currently facing a felony rape charge. I think those are some obvious issues of players thinking they are above the team (aka ego's) that Ford has evaluated and signed.

but it's silly to say that no coach has and that Nash's arrival on campus will present Ford with his first 'ego'.

Maybe I should have clarified, but when dealing with 5 star players with (supposedly, in Nash's case) a 5 star opinion of himself, this will be the first time Ford has had to deal with a situation similar to Capel's poorly-made situation of bringing in TMG and Tiny. So how is it silly to say that this will be Ford's first scenario comparable to what you are currently (albeit deservedly) deriding Capel for? Perhaps you are seeing something I'm not, because I think that's a pretty fair statement.

 

[HoHum]

I'm no good at replying to posts in chunks like you are, and I don't want to risk the format issues.


I don't know the details of what got Pilgrim and Penn suspended, if they were ego caused or academic or lateness to team meetings or what, or how detrimental to the team they were. Even with Penn around all year, I don't think this team gets another win. The real negatives were losing Gulley to injury in November and D. Williams rape charge. I think a definite argument could be made that, that was poor evaluation on Ford's part. I have no idea if D. Williams was a known trouble maker or malcontent before stepping on campus. But, sometimes you just get burned.

As far as why players leave, I don't know if egos play a big role in that. I think Ford (for better or worse) has a quick trigger when getting rid of players and signing new ones, see Mssrs. Walker, Akol and Kirkland.

My main (original) point is that having a sub .500 with one McDonald's AA talent (let alone 3) is not the norm, and be it just flat out bad luck on Capel's part or mismanagement from the get-go and things just snowballed after that on him, the odds are in favor of Ford being more successful with his egos than Capel was with his.

That's not because I think Ford has some inherent and identifiable advantage over Capel with handling egos, but rather I think Capel's experience was such an outlier that it will be tough for Ford to NOT do better than that, and maybe exceptionally better, and I'd feel the same about just about any coach.

I just think talent overrides chemistry, particularly when that talent is winning. Now, if OSU hit some bumps in the non-conference schedule like OU did last year, then who knows what could happen. But, if I were betting, I would bet against it.

 

[Section31]

My main (original) point is that having a sub .500 with one McDonald's AA talent (let alone 3) is not the norm, and be it just flat out bad luck on Capel's part or mismanagement from the get-go and things just snowballed after that on him, the odds are in favor of Ford being more successful with his egos than Capel was with his.

This logic is flawed because things are not always this black and white...see UNC last year. What was their excuse???

Things happen. I'm not sure why people thing JC should've just won by rolling the ball out there and coaching his tail off. When you have head-cases like those those guys, you lose.

 

[HoHum]

They still ended up in the NIT final, a far sight better than what OU did.

 

[Section31]

They still ended up in the NIT final, a far sight better than what OU did.

They had 7-8 burger boys too...c'mon...you're just wanting to argue. Some kids' ranking isn't the deciding factor about whether a guy can coach.

 

[HoHum]

They had 7-8 burger boys too...c'mon...you're just wanting to argue. Some kids' ranking isn't the deciding factor about whether a guy can coach.

I'm not saying anything about his ability to coach and haven't from the beginning. I'm talking about Capel's ability to handle egos, which was my initial post in the thread.

My first post was really kind of a joke. But, I certainly think that teams falling below .500 with McDonald's All-Americans on the team is not the usual result.