OU can get whatever juco player it wants.... true or false?

[sperry]

For whatever reason, Kelvin is a JUCO wizard. It hasn't been a viable strategy for basically anyone else who has relied heavily on JUCOs.

 

[tmeyer3307]

Shaq is lazy and has zero basketball IQ! Marshall absolutely hated him I've been told.

 

[jaymOU]

Isn’t hindsight great?

OU can’t get whatever juco recruit they want. That’s a fact. Also, juco ball isn’t what it used to be when Sampson was at OU, but he seems to be making it work at Houston.

Now to address your question about those specific juco players. Remember OU only had 1 senior on the team for this year (Lattin), and 2 scholarships after Woodard and Cole graduated. They signed Manek and Polla in the November signing period. That left them with 1 scholarship for a PG in the late signing period. You mentioned 3 players: Rob Gray, Shakur Juiston, and Lual Acuil. Of course we have the benefit of hindsight now, but let’s look at it from the time things were happening. I’ll look at each of the 3.

Rob Gray:
OU had a 2nd team juco AA Darion Strong-Moore returning at PG. DSM would have one more year at OU and they were in the thick of getting a commitment from Trae Young. Assuming Gray wanted to be a PG, why would he consider going to OU? The Sooners got the verbal from Young early in the year, and DSM didn’t decide to transfer until after the season. Maybe Gray could have been a backup plan if they had lost out on Trae. Also, Jorden Shepherd was playing OK as a true freshman PG. Heck, the Sooners almost had a log jam at PG. It was probably a mutual disinterest by both parties.

Shakur Juiston:
OU had a true freshman tearing it up in Kristian Doolittle. He looked like a future star playing at the 3/4. They also signed Brady Manek early. They had Odomes playing well at the 3, and Dante Buford. It didn’t appear to be a big a position of need for OU. He wasn’t going to beat out the Doolittle we saw as a freshman..... when Juiston was a recruit. I’m not sure he could beat him out next year either..... I’m still hopeful for Doolittle in the future returning to form.

Lual Acuil:
OU had 2 returning centers in Lattin and McNeace, and a commitment from a 6’11” European center in Polla. OU didn’t need a 4th center on the roster. Why would Acuil even consider OU? Or vice versa.

After the verbal commitment by Trae, they had no available scholarships for this year. Buford and DSM decided to transfer after the season. Who was left uncommitted by then? They struck out on several grad transfers after the 2 transfers were announced. They finally gave 1 to Lazenby and saved 1 for this year.

Pardon me if my post doesn’t make much sense.... I’m typing it as I’ve just gotten 2 chemo infusions, and about to get a transfusion of 2 units of blood at MD Anderson. Cancer sucks, but this post gives me something to do. I still think my recollection is correct.

It makes perfect sense. And good luck with the chemo!

 

[jaymOU]

Shaq is lazy and has zero basketball IQ! Marshall absolutely hated him I've been told.

May be true, but he was a decent low post scorer, something OU has really struggled with - except for Muni in spurts. But maybe you don't need a traditional low post scorer anymore. Nova had their PG post up, so who knows.

 

[jaymOU]

But what if they didn't? What if it was in reverse?

Nice post... interested to hear your feedback after pondering. Your points are valid and interesting as well.

Okay - after a night of pondering and watching the Thunder miss every open shot ever, I have concluded this is a hard question.

I think Kelvin might be better at recruiting players who fit his system. He knows what he wants and gets it. And if you aren't a shooter, you don't shoot. I think back to when he told Ace McGee you are a one-dribble guy. Any more dribbles than one and it's a turnover. Great coaching.

LK seems to give more freedom to his kids. Muni would be much better if he had a one dribble rule. Post lower and take one dribble. But with the perceived freedom LK gives, Muni get's himself into trouble over-dribbling.

I love the freedom aspect of LK's style - leads to some beautiful basketball to watch with Buddy, Woodard and Cousins running the show and Spangler cleaning up the trash. But the freedom haunted OU this year. In the last minutes of the NCAA game you have Odomes cranking a corner three and Doolittle driving from the FT line, leading to a charge. Odomes and Doolittle should not be your go-to guys on offense down the stretch.

Would Kelvin allow that? Probably not.

Would Buddy blossom under Kelvin? Probably not.

It's a give and take. As a person LK dominates Kelvin as coaches they are close with very different styles. You have to choose what you like best.

McGusty and Doolittle's play really hurt OU last year. A top 50 player and your two best returning scorers and neither does much of anything. Had they played , s most would have projected, this whole thread would never had happened.

LK or Kelvin. For me it's LK, but it's close.

 

[Chiefdaddy]

OU has always been a school that recruited JUCO's and had success with them. The college game has changed but in my opinion we should still be prioritizing JUCO's. The good HS players aren't staying for 4 years. The other ones are either probably going to transfer out for a fresh start after 2 years or you get stuck with guys that should have been processed. We need to stop looking at this like in 4 years our team will be this. We need to look at 2 years at a time and bring in JUCO's, transfers, and some top HS talent. If a coach doesn't win in 4 or so years, he's gone anyway. JUCO"s are two things: They went JUCO because of grades/off court issues or they were overlooked by the big schools. Go get the ones that are hungry to get better and feel slighted, mix them with some HS guys, and a transfer or two.

 

[hoopsaustin]

Okay - after a night of pondering and watching the Thunder miss every open shot ever, I have concluded this is a hard question.

I think Kelvin might be better at recruiting players who fit his system. He knows what he wants and gets it. And if you aren't a shooter, you don't shoot. I think back to when he told Ace McGee you are a one-dribble guy. Any more dribbles than one and it's a turnover. Great coaching.

LK seems to give more freedom to his kids. Muni would be much better if he had a one dribble rule. Post lower and take one dribble. But with the perceived freedom LK gives, Muni get's himself into trouble over-dribbling.

I love the freedom aspect of LK's style - leads to some beautiful basketball to watch with Buddy, Woodard and Cousins running the show and Spangler cleaning up the trash. But the freedom haunted OU this year. In the last minutes of the NCAA game you have Odomes cranking a corner three and Doolittle driving from the FT line, leading to a charge. Odomes and Doolittle should not be your go-to guys on offense down the stretch.

Would Kelvin allow that? Probably not.

Would Buddy blossom under Kelvin? Probably not.

It's a give and take. As a person LK dominates Kelvin as coaches they are close with very different styles. You have to choose what you like best.

McGusty and Doolittle's play really hurt OU last year. A top 50 player and your two best returning scorers and neither does much of anything. Had they played , s most would have projected, this whole thread would never had happened.

LK or Kelvin. For me it's LK, but it's close.

Good post. KS for me 10/10 days. I'm not a big kruger guy. But he has helped the program, i believe it is just time to move along

 

[hoopsaustin]

OU has always been a school that recruited JUCO's and had success with them. The college game has changed but in my opinion we should still be prioritizing JUCO's. The good HS players aren't staying for 4 years. The other ones are either probably going to transfer out for a fresh start after 2 years or you get stuck with guys that should have been processed. We need to stop looking at this like in 4 years our team will be this. We need to look at 2 years at a time and bring in JUCO's, transfers, and some top HS talent. If a coach doesn't win in 4 or so years, he's gone anyway. JUCO"s are two things: They went JUCO because of grades/off court issues or they were overlooked by the big schools. Go get the ones that are hungry to get better and feel slighted, mix them with some HS guys, and a transfer or two.

Absolutely right. However, the bad thing about our juco guys is that our good ones have unfortunately not stuck it out, i think juan patillo was going to be a freak, maybe better than spangler.. and the ones that did stick around, had lower ceilings.. moore and walker

Kruger has been getting some well regarded players but kruger doesn't really develop talent imo. He needs to change his philosophy in coaching and recruiting.. we need some junkyard dogs too

 

[jaymOU]

Kruger has been getting some well regarded players but kruger doesn't really develop talent imo. He needs to change his philosophy in coaching and recruiting.. we need some junkyard dogs too[/QUOTE]

I disagree. Buddy, Cousins, Muni - even James and Odomes to lesser degrees have improved under LK. I think the two previous assistance, Hill and Henson may have played a big role in their development. But player development is good under LK - at least it has been. There have been some folks who have not improved (McGusty and Shepard) recently, which really hurt OU this year and I am afraid it will linger into next year.

But JYDs are needed for sure! I call it competiveness - others call it toughness. I just want someone who doesn't want to lose! Like :hollis754:

 

[hoopsaustin]

Kruger has been getting some well regarded players but kruger doesn't really develop talent imo. He needs to change his philosophy in coaching and recruiting.. we need some junkyard dogs too

I disagree. Buddy, Cousins, Muni - even James and Odomes to lesser degrees have improved under LK. I think the two previous assistance, Hill and Henson may have played a big role in their development. But player development is good under LK - at least it has been. There have been some folks who have not improved (McGusty and Shepard) recently, which really hurt OU this year and I am afraid it will linger into next year.

But JYDs are needed for sure! I call it competiveness - others call it toughness. I just want someone who doesn't want to lose! Like :hollis754:[/QUOTE]

I believe those players largely got better on their own

 

[Soonerinkc]

lots of long posts to read...lol.

I'd say False...just because if a kid is really good at juco others will see that as well. Also depends on OU's perception.

I think THIS year the coaches are in a "panic" mode...or so is the perception. That narrative will be pushed..."they didn't recruit you earlier but now they are panicked with 3 guys leaving...etc."

We've had success in the past...I don't think this is LK's MO...he takes guys and "develops" them. Anyone know his avg # of juco's on his teams? Someone said K Sampson had 7 on this yr Houston squad...didn't surprise me cause that's what he does...works for some others not.

After this year I would bet he'll be more hesitant on looking at highly rated guys..possible 1 and done. TY wasn't projected that and who knows if LK really told the family TY will have free rein...it looks that way..but it backfired on him.

I just need to get use to LK's style. bad yrs (around .500 overall) with a build-up to a pretty good year down the road. It's game I have no control over so I TRY to just enjoy...since I'm not writing the $3 million + check for the product~ LOL.

 

[sdcloud9]

I watch Juco ball often and it's not that good compared to 15-20 years ago.

The difference makers are not there anymore (easier to get into 4-year schools, prep schools, etc.).

Anyone looking for true difference makers are going to be sadly disappointed. Role players, absolutely are out there, but guys that can come in and start from Day 1 and make a big impact on a Power 5 conference level....those players are rare in today's Juco world.

 

[Soonerinkc]

I think Kelvin might be better at recruiting players who fit his system. He knows what he wants and gets it. And if you aren't a shooter, you don't shoot. I think back to when he told Ace McGee you are a one-dribble guy. Any more dribbles than one and it's a turnover. Great coaching.

.

Saw KS at a hs coaches clinic here in KC a few years back...

His big spill was basketball is NOT an equal opportunity sport. If you're not a shooter you won't shoot. Everyone has a roll, do it and do it well. Works for him.

One of his others was his guards had 4 dribbles to get down the court...funny I find myself watching other teams and seeing if the guards do that.

 

[Soonerinkc]

I watch Juco ball often and it's not that good compared to 15-20 years ago.

The difference makers are not there anymore (easier to get into 4-year schools, prep schools, etc.).

Anyone looking for true difference makers are going to be sadly disappointed. Role players, absolutely are out there, but guys that can come in and start from Day 1 and make a big impact on a Power 5 conference level....those players are rare in today's Juco world.

I'd add, basically you have to make "grades" for 1 semester if you're a 1 and done guy....and if your not you have tremendous resources compared to regular students to pass classes.

 

[Ghost of Gar Heard]

I watch Juco ball often and it's not that good compared to 15-20 years ago.

The difference makers are not there anymore (easier to get into 4-year schools, prep schools, etc.).

Anyone looking for true difference makers are going to be sadly disappointed. Role players, absolutely are out there, but guys that can come in and start from Day 1 and make a big impact on a Power 5 conference level....those players are rare in today's Juco world.

The talent pool in junior college is way down compared to what used to be true for all the reasons you mentioned.

I wonder OU fans were this pro-juco when OU was getting next to nothing from people like D.J. Bennett, Dinjiyl Walker, and Strong-Moore. Sampson grabs a couple of good ones and has a good season and now OU fans -- some want to bring back Sampson -- want to fill the roster with juco players, most of whom can't touch the players already on the roster.

 

[sheepdogs1]

The talent pool in junior college is way down compared to what used to be true for all the reasons you mentioned.

I wonder OU fans were this pro-juco when OU was getting next to nothing from people like D.J. Bennett, Dinjiyl Walker, and Strong-Moore. Sampson grabs a couple of good ones and has a good season and now OU fans -- some want to bring back Sampson -- want to fill the roster with juco players, most of whom can't touch the players already on the roster.

There are good and not so good players at both levels. Just because we brought in some of the juco players you mentioned does not mean they represented the good.

 

[jaymOU]

Saw KS at a hs coaches clinic here in KC a few years back...

His big spill was basketball is NOT an equal opportunity sport. If you're not a shooter you won't shoot. Everyone has a roll, do it and do it well. Works for him.

One of his others was his guards had 4 dribbles to get down the court...funny I find myself watching other teams and seeing if the guards do that.

Funny I do the same thing. I loved that part about Kelvin's basketball brand. Kelvin is definitely not as "free" as LK seems to be. Wonder how Trae would have faired in a Kelvin-type system, but Trae would never go to a Kelvin-type system.

I like LK as a man - seems to be a tremendous person, never complains, always positive.....love those qualities. I am surprised by how down the down times have been. Wish we could be a little more consistent. Sort like the season.

 

[thebigabd]

Alright... have a lot of responses here.

The difference makers are not there anymore (easier to get into 4-year schools, prep schools, etc.).

Anyone looking for true difference makers are going to be sadly disappointed. Role players, absolutely are out there, but guys that can come in and start from Day 1 and make a big impact on a Power 5 conference level....those players are rare in today's Juco world.

This is a scouting and prioritization problem. Again, keep the fact in your mind that OU is a top 20 program. Also, if you are talking NBA prospects, I totally agree they aren't out there. But guys that can put you in a position to have a damn good college team? You bet they are there.

Vladimir Broadziansky went to TCU with offers from Rutgers and Gonzaga... Again, he was right up the road at Pratt CC... 3.5 hours away from Norman, OK... He comes in and has been 2nd team all big 12 for two years. OU didn't even look at him. No offer, no visit, etc.

Kenrich Williams has been all conference at TCU... Averaged 13 and 9 this season. He is one of the more versatile players in the league. He didn't have a SINGLE D1 offer other than TCU.

Could OU have beaten out Rutgers, TCU, and DII schools for these guys? They are all-conference players. Lattin and Muni aren't all conference players.

This is practically negligence on behalf of the OU staff......

Here is my overall position, because the answer is always the same....

Do you take all jucos? Of course not.... But if I was running the OU program you can bet I would have a specific recruiter or scout looking at the Kansas, Texas, Iowa, and other "area" junior colleges at all times. Not as a last resort, but as a first option. If my scout tells me there is a 6'11'' kid at Pratt CC that can really play and nobody is looking at him yet, I would go after that player hard.. Even if I am recruiting Jamuni, Khadeem, Polla, and a host of "elite" players... if I had a sense that Vladimir (or whoever it happens to be) will jump on the OU offer early and I think he can come in and average 14/6 in Big 12 play right off the bat, I just go ahead and lock him up.

If this strategy was in place... you may see OU with Vladimir Broadziasnky instead of Matt Freeman... you may see OU with Shakur Juiston instead of Hannes Polla... you may see OU with Rob Gray instead of Ty Lazenby.

You can still have your Trae Youngs, Blake Griffins, Buddy Hields, etc.

My personal opinion, especially after digesting all the thoughts and comments from you guys, is that this is a failure in strategy by the OU staff. We have so many guys on this team, and have had for years dating back to Capel, who have no business playing at OU. Now, some local super stars like Blake Griffin, Trae Young, and a diamond in the rough in Cousins/Hield saved the day... but it's pretty amazing how many "role players" on scholarship at OU have no business playing at OU. That isn't fair to them, to the other players, or to the fans.

The original question in the thread was, can OU get whatever junior college player they want? The way those players are recruited these days, I say yes, if it wants to. I have no doubt OU could have landed Vladimir Broadziansky over TCU and Rutgers. He was 3 hours away from Norman and they DIDNT EVEN KNOW HE EXISTED. OU is a top 20 program, of course it could have had him. That's gross negligence......

We will see how Bandoo, Torres, Maricevic, Trice, and others from this class pan out. They may flop, but the talent in OU's neck of the woods is out there to fill gaps... We can prove that over and over again. OU doesn't need for there to be 100 of these guys. OU needs for there to be 10-15 of them per year and you hope to land 1-2 of them. But the OU scouts should have known that Vladimir was 3.5 hours away, same with Juiston, same with Rob Gray, etc. They know who can play and who can't. They aren't gambling. They should know a legit D1 player when they see one. That's their damn job. OU would easily be the best program recruiting these guys. They just don't look or scout them until the very end of the process when they are desperate.

 

[schoonerdriver]

Alright... have a lot of responses here.



This is a scouting and prioritization problem. Again, keep the fact in your mind that OU is a top 20 program. Also, if you are talking NBA prospects, I totally agree they aren't out there. But guys that can put you in a position to have a damn good college team? You bet they are there.

Vladimir Broadziansky went to TCU with offers from Rutgers and Gonzaga... Again, he was right up the road at Pratt CC... 3.5 hours away from Norman, OK... He comes in and has been 2nd team all big 12 for two years. OU didn't even look at him. No offer, no visit, etc.

Kenrich Williams has been all conference at TCU... Averaged 13 and 9 this season. He is one of the more versatile players in the league. He didn't have a SINGLE D1 offer other than TCU.

Could OU have beaten out Rutgers, TCU, and DII schools for these guys? They are all-conference players. Lattin and Muni aren't all conference players.

This is practically negligence on behalf of the OU staff......

Here is my overall position, because the answer is always the same....

Do you take all jucos? Of course not.... But if I was running the OU program you can bet I would have a specific recruiter or scout looking at the Kansas, Texas, Iowa, and other "area" junior colleges at all times. Not as a last resort, but as a first option. If my scout tells me there is a 6'11'' kid at Pratt CC that can really play and nobody is looking at him yet, I would go after that player hard.. Even if I am recruiting Jamuni, Khadeem, Polla, and a host of "elite" players... if I had a sense that Vladimir (or whoever it happens to be) will jump on the OU offer early and I think he can come in and average 14/6 in Big 12 play right off the bat, I just go ahead and lock him up.

If this strategy was in place... you may see OU with Vladimir Broadziasnky instead of Matt Freeman... you may see OU with Shakur Juiston instead of Hannes Polla... you may see OU with Rob Gray instead of Ty Lazenby.

You can still have your Trae Youngs, Blake Griffins, Buddy Hields, etc.

My personal opinion, especially after digesting all the thoughts and comments from you guys, is that this is a failure in strategy by the OU staff. We have so many guys on this team, and have had for years dating back to Capel, who have no business playing at OU. Now, some local super stars like Blake Griffin, Trae Young, and a diamond in the rough in Cousins/Hield saved the day... but it's pretty amazing how many "role players" on scholarship at OU have no business playing at OU. That isn't fair to them, to the other players, or to the fans.

The original question in the thread was, can OU get whatever junior college player they want? The way those players are recruited these days, I say yes, if it wants to. I have no doubt OU could have landed Vladimir Broadziansky over TCU and Rutgers. He was 3 hours away from Norman and they DIDNT EVEN KNOW HE EXISTED. OU is a top 20 program, of course it could have had him. That's gross negligence......

We will see how Bandoo, Torres, Maricevic, Trice, and others from this class pan out. They may flop, but the talent in OU's neck of the woods is out there to fill gaps... We can prove that over and over again. OU doesn't need for there to be 100 of these guys. OU needs for there to be 10-15 of them per year and you hope to land 1-2 of them. But the OU scouts should have known that Vladimir was 3.5 hours away, same with Juiston, same with Rob Gray, etc. They know who can play and who can't. They aren't gambling. They should know a legit D1 player when they see one. That's their damn job. OU would easily be the best program recruiting these guys. They just don't look or scout them until the very end of the process when they are desperate.

Any explanation for why Capel and Kruger have failed at this? Is just coincidence that both have failed at this or is there some correlation?

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

 

[sdcloud9]

Alright... have a lot of responses here.



This is a scouting and prioritization problem. Again, keep the fact in your mind that OU is a top 20 program. Also, if you are talking NBA prospects, I totally agree they aren't out there. But guys that can put you in a position to have a damn good college team? You bet they are there.

Vladimir Broadziansky went to TCU with offers from Rutgers and Gonzaga... Again, he was right up the road at Pratt CC... 3.5 hours away from Norman, OK... He comes in and has been 2nd team all big 12 for two years. OU didn't even look at him. No offer, no visit, etc.

Kenrich Williams has been all conference at TCU... Averaged 13 and 9 this season. He is one of the more versatile players in the league. He didn't have a SINGLE D1 offer other than TCU.

Could OU have beaten out Rutgers, TCU, and DII schools for these guys? They are all-conference players. Lattin and Muni aren't all conference players.

This is practically negligence on behalf of the OU staff......

Here is my overall position, because the answer is always the same....

Do you take all jucos? Of course not.... But if I was running the OU program you can bet I would have a specific recruiter or scout looking at the Kansas, Texas, Iowa, and other "area" junior colleges at all times. Not as a last resort, but as a first option. If my scout tells me there is a 6'11'' kid at Pratt CC that can really play and nobody is looking at him yet, I would go after that player hard.. Even if I am recruiting Jamuni, Khadeem, Polla, and a host of "elite" players... if I had a sense that Vladimir (or whoever it happens to be) will jump on the OU offer early and I think he can come in and average 14/6 in Big 12 play right off the bat, I just go ahead and lock him up.

If this strategy was in place... you may see OU with Vladimir Broadziasnky instead of Matt Freeman... you may see OU with Shakur Juiston instead of Hannes Polla... you may see OU with Rob Gray instead of Ty Lazenby.

You can still have your Trae Youngs, Blake Griffins, Buddy Hields, etc.

My personal opinion, especially after digesting all the thoughts and comments from you guys, is that this is a failure in strategy by the OU staff. We have so many guys on this team, and have had for years dating back to Capel, who have no business playing at OU. Now, some local super stars like Blake Griffin, Trae Young, and a diamond in the rough in Cousins/Hield saved the day... but it's pretty amazing how many "role players" on scholarship at OU have no business playing at OU. That isn't fair to them, to the other players, or to the fans.

The original question in the thread was, can OU get whatever junior college player they want? The way those players are recruited these days, I say yes, if it wants to. I have no doubt OU could have landed Vladimir Broadziansky over TCU and Rutgers. He was 3 hours away from Norman and they DIDNT EVEN KNOW HE EXISTED. OU is a top 20 program, of course it could have had him. That's gross negligence......

We will see how Bandoo, Torres, Maricevic, Trice, and others from this class pan out. They may flop, but the talent in OU's neck of the woods is out there to fill gaps... We can prove that over and over again. OU doesn't need for there to be 100 of these guys. OU needs for there to be 10-15 of them per year and you hope to land 1-2 of them. But the OU scouts should have known that Vladimir was 3.5 hours away, same with Juiston, same with Rob Gray, etc. They know who can play and who can't. They aren't gambling. They should know a legit D1 player when they see one. That's their damn job. OU would easily be the best program recruiting these guys. They just don't look or scout them until the very end of the process when they are desperate.

I don't disagree there are Juco players out there better than some players OU has on their team. No doubt and OU should look at those when they are available.

They were desperate this year because two players left in March. Sometimes, you are placed in positions you don't control.