OU can get whatever juco player it wants.... true or false?

[Soonerinkc]

Alright... have a lot of responses here.



This is a scouting and prioritization problem. Again, keep the fact in your mind that OU is a top 20 program. Also, if you are talking NBA prospects, I totally agree they aren't out there. But guys that can put you in a position to have a damn good college team? You bet they are there.

Vladimir Broadziansky went to TCU with offers from Rutgers and Gonzaga... Again, he was right up the road at Pratt CC... 3.5 hours away from Norman, OK... He comes in and has been 2nd team all big 12 for two years. OU didn't even look at him. No offer, no visit, etc.

Kenrich Williams has been all conference at TCU... Averaged 13 and 9 this season. He is one of the more versatile players in the league. He didn't have a SINGLE D1 offer other than TCU.

Could OU have beaten out Rutgers, TCU, and DII schools for these guys? They are all-conference players. Lattin and Muni aren't all conference players.

This is practically negligence on behalf of the OU staff......

Here is my overall position, because the answer is always the same....

Do you take all jucos? Of course not.... But if I was running the OU program you can bet I would have a specific recruiter or scout looking at the Kansas, Texas, Iowa, and other "area" junior colleges at all times. Not as a last resort, but as a first option. If my scout tells me there is a 6'11'' kid at Pratt CC that can really play and nobody is looking at him yet, I would go after that player hard.. Even if I am recruiting Jamuni, Khadeem, Polla, and a host of "elite" players... if I had a sense that Vladimir (or whoever it happens to be) will jump on the OU offer early and I think he can come in and average 14/6 in Big 12 play right off the bat, I just go ahead and lock him up.

If this strategy was in place... you may see OU with Vladimir Broadziasnky instead of Matt Freeman... you may see OU with Shakur Juiston instead of Hannes Polla... you may see OU with Rob Gray instead of Ty Lazenby.

You can still have your Trae Youngs, Blake Griffins, Buddy Hields, etc.

My personal opinion, especially after digesting all the thoughts and comments from you guys, is that this is a failure in strategy by the OU staff. We have so many guys on this team, and have had for years dating back to Capel, who have no business playing at OU. Now, some local super stars like Blake Griffin, Trae Young, and a diamond in the rough in Cousins/Hield saved the day... but it's pretty amazing how many "role players" on scholarship at OU have no business playing at OU. That isn't fair to them, to the other players, or to the fans.

The original question in the thread was, can OU get whatever junior college player they want? The way those players are recruited these days, I say yes, if it wants to. I have no doubt OU could have landed Vladimir Broadziansky over TCU and Rutgers. He was 3 hours away from Norman and they DIDNT EVEN KNOW HE EXISTED. OU is a top 20 program, of course it could have had him. That's gross negligence......

We will see how Bandoo, Torres, Maricevic, Trice, and others from this class pan out. They may flop, but the talent in OU's neck of the woods is out there to fill gaps... We can prove that over and over again. OU doesn't need for there to be 100 of these guys. OU needs for there to be 10-15 of them per year and you hope to land 1-2 of them. But the OU scouts should have known that Vladimir was 3.5 hours away, same with Juiston, same with Rob Gray, etc. They know who can play and who can't. They aren't gambling. They should know a legit D1 player when they see one. That's their damn job. OU would easily be the best program recruiting these guys. They just don't look or scout them until the very end of the process when they are desperate.

100% correct

I love OU ball, but we cannot compete with the BB in basketball recruiting. Yes, we've gotten our local guys that were at that level in HS, but BOTH guys didn't stay long. Should we be able to get top 150 talent? 1 or 2, maybe a top 50 guy here and there but we'll need to BUILD a solid base, sprinkle in a juco here and there. I just don't see how OU should be below 20 wins very often.

 

[AdaSooner]

Re: OU can get whatever juco player it wants.... true or fa

I don't disagree there are Juco players out there better than some players OU has on their team. No doubt and OU should look at those when they are available.

They were desperate this year because two players left in March. Sometimes, you are placed in positions you don't control.

I think thebigabd’s point (and mine to be honest) is that our coaches CAN control how they recruit juco players.

OU has a long history of success with juco tranfers on our roster. That was when the coaching staff identified the best players available and actively recruited them early on. The odds of signing the top juco recruits out there is bound to decrease if you continue to treat them like an afterthought.

Austin Trice, for example, another player our coaches were late to the dance on. He’s visiting KState from today through Saturday. After reading this article, I seriously doubt if he will make it on campus for his April 13th visit to OU. He’s still saying he plans to sign on the 11th, two days before his scheduled visit.

http://www.kansas.com/sports/college/big-12/kansas-state/article207917554.html

Sure hope I’m wrong, but I don’t like our chances of getting him in for a visit now, much less getting him to sign with OU.

 

[Maverick008]

Re: OU can get whatever juco player it wants.... true or fa

Sure hope I’m wrong, but I don’t like our chances of getting him in for a visit now, much less getting him to sign with OU.

I was thinking the SAME thing when you read that he'll commit before he even shows up to OU....On to the fall back plan to the apparent fall back plan.....

 

[Soonerinkc]

IF LK had NO CLUE TY was MOST likely gone after this year....by Jan 1 then that's on him. Seriously THAT is the main reason he shot up the charts to a top 10 pick, (his production early on, his continued production kept him there).

A lot easier to come back in March and tell the kid "Hey, things didn't go the direction we thought", than come in March and say "Hey, we'd love to have you now".

As far as Shep and McG I'd say the same thing. I'm sure it was in March they both decided...they had to be thinking about it and IF the staff doesn't know then that's on them. They are getting paid over $3,000,000 to know this.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[CMSOONER]

LK knew he was gone. I just don't think he expected the rest of the fallout.

 

[thebigabd]

Any explanation for why Capel and Kruger have failed at this? Is just coincidence that both have failed at this or is there some correlation?

1.) Probably just don't believe in the method, more than anything.

2.) Not understanding your geographic location and building relationships with the junior college coaches in Kansas, Texas, Iowa, etc. Kelvin had those relationships.

Capel made more sense than Kruger... he was a Duke guy. Duke doesn't recruit players, it selects them. He had absolutely no connections to this program or part of the country.

I would have expected Kruger to operate differently, but he hasn't.

OU has a long history of success with juco tranfers on our roster. That was when the coaching staff identified the best players available and actively recruited them early on. The odds of signing the top juco recruits out there is bound to decrease if you continue to treat them like an afterthought.

Absolutely.

Austin Trice, for example, another player our coaches were late to the dance on. He’s visiting KState from today through Saturday. After reading this article, I seriously doubt if he will make it on campus for his April 13th visit to OU. He’s still saying he plans to sign on the 11th, two days before his scheduled visit.

Right, doesn't look good for OU. They are coming off an Elite 8, don't have 8 guys playing his position, and are recruiting him harder. If OU wanted Trice it should have been all over him in November/December.

LK knew he was gone.

LK knew he was gone and knew Sheph wasn't the answer.

 

[Maverick008]

1.)
2.) Not understanding your geographic location and building relationships with the junior college coaches in Kansas, Texas, Iowa, etc. Kelvin had those relationships.

I would have expected Kruger to operate differently, but he hasn't.

This goes back to preference. Kruger grew up in Kansas, played/coached at KSU so geographic location CAN'T be the reason for not having those connections to the Jucos in Kansas especially. If it's his philosophy/belief that the Juco types aren't for him then so be it but "not understanding your geographic location" isn't the answer for him

 

[AdaSooner]

I would have expected Kruger to operate differently, but he hasn’t.

Is it Kruger or his current staff? I don’t recall anyone on this board complaining too much when OU was bringing in the recruits who took us to the final four two years ago. Oh, a few here asked why a scholarship was wasted on Isaiah when he struggled with running the point his freshman season. :ez-laugh: That was quickly forgotten when he developed into an outstanding combo guard who could score and create for his teammates.

IMO, the jury is still out on our recruiting the last two seasons. some of the players this staff has signed are suspect at best. No need to mention names, everyone here knows who I’m talking about. Hindsight is 20-20 as they say, but I can’t help but wonder if we could have brought in better players by going the juco route?

 

[thebigabd]

Is it Kruger or his current staff? I don’t recall anyone on this board complaining too much when OU was bringing in the recruits who took us to the final four two years ago. Oh, a few here asked why a scholarship was wasted on Isaiah when he struggled with running the point his freshman season. :ez-laugh: That was quickly forgotten when he developed into an outstanding combo guard who could score and create for his teammates.

IMO, the jury is still out on our recruiting the last two seasons. some of the players this staff has signed are suspect at best. No need to mention names, everyone here knows who I’m talking about. Hindsight is 20-20 as they say, but I can’t help but wonder if we could have brought in better players by going the juco route?

Right... Hannes Polla might averaged 15 points and 9 rebounds per game next year with 2 more years to play and I am eating crow. Muni, James, Manek, etc might blow up. Not even joking, that COULD happen.

 

[WaymanFan]

The talent pool in junior college is way down compared to what used to be true for all the reasons you mentioned.

Yes, the talent is down, but OU should still be the #1 or #1A / #1B choice of the top ones in the country. As I stated previously, Billy built that tradition and Kelvin fed off it. I'm a huge Joe C fan, but I'll put some blame on him if he didn't say something like this to Jeff Capel before hiring him. "Oklahoma has built its tradition on signing the cream of the crop of JUCO players. 3 had long NBA careers while several others played or were at least drafted in the NBA. OU is to top JUCO players as what Duke is to top high school players. Of course we want you to get the best high school players you can get, but are you willing to carry on the OU tradition for grabbing the top JUCO players in America?"

 

[Soonerinkc]

LK knew he was gone. I just don't think he expected the rest of the fallout.

well, if he didn't realize by Dec Shep wasn't the answer either that again is on him...for the PG spot.

 

[TINY]

Right... Hannes Polla might averaged 15 points and 9 rebounds per game next year with 2 more years to play and I am eating crow. Muni, James, Manek, etc might blow up. Not even joking, that COULD happen.

Muni, James, and manek have already shown more than any juco in an ou uniform since probably Terrell Everett. You cherry pick the successful jucos from random schools and leave out the garbage jucos. The success rate for jucos these days is incredibly low. For every 1 rob gray there are thousands of Omar learys, darrion strong moores, ty lazenbys. Guys that dominated some sorry juco league and can’t cut it in the big12.

 

[Ghost of Gar Heard]

Muni, James, and manek have already shown more than any juco in an ou uniform since probably Terrell Everett. You cherry pick the successful jucos from random schools and leave out the garbage jucos. The success rate for jucos these days is incredibly low. For every 1 rob gray there are thousands of Omar learys, darrion strong moores, ty lazenbys. Guys that dominated some sorry juco league and can’t cut it in the big12.

this. Absolutely. There's a reason that teams would much rather pursue DI transfers than Juco guys today. It's not that those guys aren't there, but their success rate is so much lower that is it really worth your coaches' finite time to go and watch a ton of juco games just on the off-chance you might get to recruit Rob Gray when you can be watching high school AAU games and see 6 or 8 kids you might be able to recruit?

Tiny absolutely hit the nail on the head.

 

[TINY]

Re: OU can get whatever juco player it wants.... true or fa

I think thebigabd’s point (and mine to be honest) is that our coaches CAN control how they recruit juco players.

OU has a long history of success with juco tranfers on our roster. That was when the coaching staff identified the best players available and actively recruited them early on. The odds of signing the top juco recruits out there is bound to decrease if you continue to treat them like an afterthought.

Austin Trice, for example, another player our coaches were late to the dance on. He’s visiting KState from today through Saturday. After reading this article, I seriously doubt if he will make it on campus for his April 13th visit to OU. He’s still saying he plans to sign on the 11th, two days before his scheduled visit.

http://www.kansas.com/sports/college/big-12/kansas-state/article207917554.html

Sure hope I’m wrong, but I don’t like our chances of getting him in for a visit now, much less getting him to sign with OU.

I doubt he signs with KSU without looking at ou. He has more opportunity at ou since their entire team is returning. Not to mention, KSU is a turd sandwich compared to ou in just about every way, shape and form as far as the school goes. I can’t imagine someone wanting to play for Bruce Weber over Lon Kruger either. Having said that, if he is dead set on playing for a winner next season, KSU does have the leg up there.

Trice would not be a big loss imo, though. He won’t turn us into a winning team next season. He’s a nice athlete that can’t shoot and is too small to play inside in the big 12.

 

[WaymanFan]

Muni, James, and manek have already shown more than any juco in an ou uniform since probably Terrell Everett. You cherry pick the successful jucos from random schools and leave out the garbage jucos. The success rate for jucos these days is incredibly low. For every 1 rob gray there are thousands of Omar learys, darrion strong moores, ty lazenbys. Guys that dominated some sorry juco league and can’t cut it in the big12.

The point isn't whether we should OD on JUCOs. No one is arguing there are far less good ones than 15+ years ago. What many of us are saying is that if there is someone who can help us, why aren't we at the TOP of their list? OU should be considered a JUCO AA destination much like Duke, NC, Kentucky and Kansas are considered a high school AA destination.

 

[TINY]

The point isn't whether we should OD on JUCOs. No one is arguing there are far less good ones than 15+ years ago. What many of us are saying is that if there is someone who can help us, why aren't we at the TOP of their list? OU should be considered a JUCO AA destination much like Duke, NC, Kentucky and Kansas are considered a high school AA destination.

We got the #1 juco in Manyang not that long ago, and he was gone after a year. The emergence of the grad transfer has taken the place of most jucos for ou and that is fine with me. Why fill a spot with a juco in the fall when you could land a tyshawn thomas in the spring?

 

[thebigabd]

Muni, James, and manek have already shown more than any juco in an ou uniform since probably Terrell Everett.

That is faulty logic. The entire point of this thread is that OU doesn't recruit the good ones, and Taj/Terrell were probably the last of that "era" of OU recruiting.

Also, I like Muni and have been guilty of this as well, but lets not forget that he averages like 6 points and 5 rebounds per game and we all thought he had an incredible year.

You cherry pick the successful jucos from random schools and leave out the garbage jucos. The success rate for jucos these days is incredibly low. For every 1 rob gray there are thousands of Omar learys, darrion strong moores, ty lazenbys. Guys that dominated some sorry juco league and can’t cut it in the big12.

This is also faulty logic... There are guys who average 35 a game in high school that don't belong in the Big 12 either. There juco stats have NOTHING to do with anything. The point of the thread isn't that they should take just any guy with good juco stats, but that they should know and go after the ones that are legit Big 12 talent, and not as a last resort.

I can cherry pick some high school talent in the area that this staff totally whiffed on as well.... and some have already done so in this thread.

The guys I cherry picked were also "area" people... Lual, Vladimir, Gray, etc are all within driving distance of Norman. They are examples of guys that OU absolutely could have (and should have) recruited heavily. So you didn't properly scout and look at a guy 3 hours away who came in and has been 2nd team All Big 12 multiple times so that you could fly to Finland and New Zealand to get Freeman and Polla? You didn't offer, scout, etc another guy 3 hours away (Lual) for the same reason? Could they not tell that Broadzianksy, Gray, Lual, etc were legit Big 12 players? But they thought Freeman and Polla were? Or was it that they didn't even look?

And you turn around and praise Muni? Again, I like Muni, his numbers aren't that great but I expect him to be a 10/6 or better guy next season. That's good production.

You guys keep saying they shouldn't recruit Lual, Vladimir, Gray, etc because there is too much risk of them not being able to produce, or that juco is watered down, and some guys score a lot of points in juco but it doesn't translate. So you make $2 million a year and can't spot a legit D1 prospect when you see one? Again, lots of guys put up big numbers in high school and don't translate.

I remember watching Marchelo Vealy in the Tournament of Champions looking like he was on the same level as Blake and Taylor Griffin in high school.... and the best offer he got was ORU. And he belonged at ORU. The guys doing the scouted properly evaluated that Vealy had a ceiling or despite putting 40 or whatever on the Griffins, that still didn't make him some kind of all star college player.

This has nothing to do with numbers, and everything to do with them spotting the right players, especially when they are right around you, and bring them in and put a better team together.

 

[TINY]

Your whole argument for jucos is faulty logic because you don’t mention all the flops. Ou landed the very best juco in the country in manyang and he was a flop. There are only a couple quality jucos per year that contribute in the big 12. The top teams are made up of high school players and grad transfers. There’s no argument against that. None.

 

[TINY]

I also am in favor of ou trying to get one of the juco guys you mentioned in bandoo or the other guy this year because we are up s creek without a paddle. That should not be our goal every season though because we can get better high school players than most teams. We are always an attractive option for grad transfers which have a much higher rate of return than jucos, also.

 

[Ghost of Gar Heard]

The point isn't whether we should OD on JUCOs. No one is arguing there are far less good ones than 15+ years ago. What many of us are saying is that if there is someone who can help us, why aren't we at the TOP of their list? OU should be considered a JUCO AA destination much like Duke, NC, Kentucky and Kansas are considered a high school AA destination.

The answer is easy. Why would we be at the top of their list? We're only going to be at the top of recruits' list if we spend a lot of time actively recruiting them. Our coaches do and should spend most of their recruiting time looking for good HS kids. The opportunity cost is that they don't spend time recruiting those JUCO kids. Personally, I don't want them to spend less time on HS kids just so they can recruit more JUCO kids. Time is finite.