OU Hoops Mount Rushmore

[WTSooner]

You are right and you kind of prove my point. I think Kruger can get us back to competing at the level we were under Sampson, for the most part, year to year but not to level we were under Tubbs for that 8 season run from 1982-90.

I think you are misrepresenting two things. The length of any run Billy had, and how much he accomplished during that run.

'82 was an NIT season.
'83 was a 2nd place Big 8 season, and one win in the Dance
'84 despite winning the Big 8, we didn't even win a single NCAA game.

I just don't think Billy accomplished THAT much more than Kelvin when you put it on paper. The biggest difference would be regular season conference titles. And again, we aren't comparing apples to apples, b/c Kelvin dealt with an unbalanced schedule for years. Billy's NCAA Tourney record is better, but only by about 10%. One in ten games more Billy won. That doesn't take into account that Kelvin took us Dancing all but one season. One-and-done in the Dance is better than an NIT season, yet those stats don't reflect that.

I'm not saying Kelvin wins this battle. Not at all. I'm just saying it's pretty much a wash. Too many OU fans remember the Billy days like they remember the Switzer days. All positive, no negative, and in some cases, and over-inflated sense of what was actually accomplished. Billy was also on campus two more seasons than Kelvin.

I know I'm a Kelvin fan, but I'm capable of looking at this objectively. I just think emotions are clouding the judgement of some folks. Because side by side, the things that actually matter, their accomplishments were pretty darn similar. Kelvin might not have had the notoriety that Billy had for style of play or whatever, but that doesn't go in the record book. And all that notoriety that Billy had, still left our program to hire a relatively unknown coach was Washington State to follow him at OU.

 

[KBaden145]

I think you are misrepresenting two things. The length of any run Billy had, and how much he accomplished during that run.

'82 was an NIT season.
'83 was a 2nd place Big 8 season, and one win in the Dance
'84 despite winning the Big 8, we didn't even win a single NCAA game.

I just don't think Billy accomplished THAT much more than Kelvin when you put it on paper. The biggest difference would be regular season conference titles. And again, we aren't comparing apples to apples, b/c Kelvin dealt with an unbalanced schedule for years. Billy's NCAA Tourney record is better, but only by about 10%. One in ten games more Billy won. That doesn't take into account that Kelvin took us Dancing all but one season. One-and-done in the Dance is better than an NIT season, yet those stats don't reflect that.

I'm not saying Kelvin wins this battle. Not at all. I'm just saying it's pretty much a wash. Too many OU fans remember the Billy days like they remember the Switzer days. All positive, no negative, and in some cases, and over-inflated sense of what was actually accomplished. Billy was also on campus two more seasons than Kelvin.

I know I'm a Kelvin fan, but I'm capable of looking at this objectively. I just think emotions are clouding the judgement of some folks. Because side by side, the things that actually matter, their accomplishments were pretty darn similar. Kelvin might not have had the notoriety that Billy had for style of play or whatever, but that doesn't go in the record book. And all that notoriety that Billy had, still left our program to hire a relatively unknown coach was Washington State to follow him at OU.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. I start with 1982-83 season and go to 1989-90. 8 seasons, THE best stretch in the history of the school by far. 4 of these teams were #1 seeds. Sampson only had one team seeded 1st in the tournament.

Again Sampson was very consistent but you misrepresent me when you talk about clouded judgement. I'm a huge fan of Sampson. In fact, I identify with his style of ball more than Tubbs. I'm being very objective but I think my point is fairly clear and correct and I'm not necessarily comparing careers here. We were not, have not, and might never be as good as we were for that spectacular 8 year run we had with Tubbs. We were the 2nd best program in the country in the 80's.

Who we played in conference and how good they were doesn't really matter in my thinking except for Tubbs winning more conference titles. I consider the Big 8 of this period and the Big 12 during a good part of Sampsons time a wash, anyways. Diminishing what Tubbs accomplished by saying the conference was not as good (marginally at best if at all) is not really fair.

 

[bocabull]

The Sampson era was mediocre at best. The Hollis Price era was elite. Hollis won the games that Sampson lost every other year without him.

 

[WTSooner]

I'm not misrepresenting anything. I start with 1982-83 season and go to 1989-90. 8 seasons, THE best stretch in the history of the school by far. 4 of these teams were #1 seeds. Sampson only had one team seeded 1st in the tournament.

You are including stretches of time that have NOTHING to do with it probably being OU's best stretch of basketball. It wasn't the best stretch of basketball b/c of '82 and '83, so why include them? They actually pull down the overall accomplishment during Billy's run. It's only the top stretch b/c of 4-5 seasons that don't overlap a lot of the seasons you combined.

As for #1 seeds, again, irrelevant. The difference between a 1 and 2 seed can literally come down to one spot. The 4th vs the 5th ranked team. Heck, it might not even come down to that. The S-curve, matchups, and all that jazz, you could see teams slide down a line all the time. What matters is wins, championships, and making the NCAA Tournament. Not seeds, AP rankings, and any of that other fluff. If a comparison comes down to fluff, like #1 seeds, I'd say my argument that it's really too close to call is probably dead on.

If you compare actual results of Billy's 5 best seasons, and Kelvin's, outside of conference championships (which I've shown to be apples to oranges), I don't think Billy's numbers are going to blow Kelvin's out of the water. I'd be more than happy to put that together if you want to select Billy's top 5 seasons.

 

[KBaden145]

I'd be more than happy to put that together if you want to select Billy's top 5 seasons.

WT, I did if you will look back over the thread. Those 5 teams are better than all but one of Kelvin's teams. Start with 83-84 team or if you want we can start with the 84-85 team. Pick a period of time right there and it is the best stretch of basketball in OUs history. It covers the career of arguably 3 of OUs greatest players and clearly it's best team, unless you can find a way to argue those, as well.

 

[DenverSooner]

And, on EDIT, I will add Tubbs also had a very highly rated recruiting class when he was fired. Maybe he was on the verge of getting it back. WE will never know.

Tubbs was not fired. He quit and took the TCU job.

 

[KBaden145]

Tubbs was not fired. He quit and took the TCU job.

Very weird ending to his time here. Reminds me of Tubby Smith leaving UK for Minnesota. Coach Tubbs does say WE when talking about OU in his broadcasts so no hard feelings.

 

[garyeb2]

Very weird ending to his time here. Reminds me of Tubby Smith leaving UK for Minnesota. Coach Tubbs does say WE when talking about OU in his broadcasts so no hard feelings.

Billy was never the same after getting hit by the car.

 

[KBaden145]

Billy was never the same after getting hit by the car.

Didn't that occur fairly early in his time at OU? 82 or 83?

 

[garyeb2]

Didn't that occur fairly early in his time at OU? 82 or 83?

I made the comment because my recollection is that he was only around a couple of years after the incident. I could be wrong.

 

[KBaden145]

I made the comment because my recollection is that he was only around a couple of years after the incident. I could be wrong.

Pretty sure that occurred in 83. Seem to remember pathetic fans of a pathetic (at the time) basketball program wearing pathetic t-shirts making light of an incident that almost killed him.

 

[skyvue]

Tubbs was hit by the car in February 1983.

 

[Big Old Booger]

Tubbs was not fired. He quit and took the TCU job.

Technically he was not fired. However, TCU called him to request permission to speak with Mike Mims. Tubbs went to Donnie Duncan to let him know TCU had called, as is protocol, and Duncan told Tubbs to see if TCU would want him (Tubbs) instead because he was about to be out of a job.

That's the story Al Eschbach told a few months after it happened on WWLS.

So, you are correct he was not fired, but he was about to be.

 

[Big Old Booger]

Tubbs was hit by the car in February 1983.

Yep and his asst Coach, Mike Newell was named interim HC and he coached the Sooners thru the end of the season. Which included a first round win over Gene Bartow and UAB and a 2nd round loss to Bobby Knight and the Indiana Hoosiers with Uwe Blab.

 

[Krugerfan52]

If you could only have 4, I would pick these 4 in this order. Judging by OU impact, how they played at OU and their NBA careers included because that has a big impact on OU as well.

1. Wayman Tisdale
2. Blake Griffin
3. Eduardo Najera
4. Stacy King

Mookie would be honorable mention. Hollis was loved by you guys but not in the same class as these guys IMO

 

[Krugerfan52]

Blake Griffin was national player of the year and #1 pick in the NBA draft. If you dont have him in your top 4 of alltime OU players, you are not bright.

Its like not having Sam Bradford in your top 4 OU QBs

 

[sybarite]

Blake Griffin was national player of the year and #1 pick in the NBA draft. If you dont have him in your top 4 of alltime OU players, you are not bright.

Its like not having Sam Bradford in your top 4 OU QBs

After you learn who Alvan Adams is, I might take your post more seriously.

 

[skyvue]

If you could only have 4, I would pick these 4 in this order. Judging by OU impact, how they played at OU and their NBA careers included because that has a big impact on OU as well.

1. Wayman Tisdale
2. Blake Griffin
3. Eduardo Najera
4. Stacy King

Mookie would be honorable mention. Hollis was loved by you guys but not in the same class as these guys IMO

Me, I'd never consider a player's NBA accomplishments for this particular (imaginary) honor, but since you did -- Alvan Adams had his jersey retired by both OU and the Phoenix Suns. Hard to top that.

Much as I love Eduardo, he's not really in Adams' class as far as college/pro accomplishments.

 

[KBaden145]

For me, AA, WWT, and Drake are automatic no brainers.

King, Mook, Griffin and Tubbs are in the next group.

Minor, Sampson, and Hollis right behind them.

Gerald Tucker, Don Sidle, Lester Lane, Harvey, and Eddy in the next.

 

[WTSooner]

Me, I'd never consider a player's NBA accomplishments for this particular (imaginary) honor,

Agreed.