Player Development Discussion

[cowboysooner]

Tagged along with my kid to a local gym. My kid started shooting and cousins walks up and asked to join him. He looked absolutely cut and I do not think I saw him miss more than a few shots over about an hour. It unbelievable to me that he is not good enough to make a roster in the nba

 

[SoonerinNC]

A player has to really push themself to reach the elite level in today's game.

A coach can encourage, influence, push, etc.

Geno is one of the best in that regard. He stays on top of his players and is constantly challenging them to remove their own barriers to becoming better. We make choices in everything we do and many times those choices prevent ourselves from excelling in what we do.

Wish I had understood Geno's philosophy when I was coaching.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Tagged along with my kid to a local gym. My kid started shooting and cousins walks up and asked to join him. He looked absolutely cut and I do not think I saw him miss more than a few shots over about an hour. It unbelievable to me that he is not good enough to make a roster in the nba

Nice story and one that shows just how good NBA players are. Part of it comes down to circumstances, and I think Cousins had a good shot if he hadn’t suffered a mild injury in summer league 2016. But there are dozens, even hundreds, of great players who are just not quite able to stick in the NBA. I still hope he has a chance but obviously with each passing year, it gets less likely.

 

[BCSooners]

Tagged along with my kid to a local gym. My kid started shooting and cousins walks up and asked to join him. He looked absolutely cut and I do not think I saw him miss more than a few shots over about an hour. It unbelievable to me that he is not good enough to make a roster in the nba

And he has good size for a combo guard, super quick, & a great defender. Those guys are just amazing that the 12-15th guys on the roster need a bit of luck to stick.

 

[Abe]

For those interested on restrictions that honorable coaches abide by on player development you may want to read the rules starting On page 266 of the NCAA rules for division 1: https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/reports/getReport/90008. Not much time available for one- on- one development. As several people pointed out the kids do it and if your lucky enough to get a lot of 4 and 5 star Players your way ahead.

 

[daqman]

For those interested on restrictions that honorable coaches abide by on player development you may want to read the rules starting On page 266 of the NCAA rules for division 1: https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/reports/getReport/90008. Not much time available for one- on- one development. As several people pointed out the kids do it and if your lucky enough to get a lot of 4 and 5 star Players your way ahead.

Yeah, we're aware of the restrictions. Every coach/team has the same ones. How does Scott Drew take a team with no top 50 players and stick in the top 5 all year? How does Beard do it at a place like BFTech?

 

[CoachTalk]

Yeah, we're aware of the restrictions. Every coach/team has the same ones. How does Scott Drew take a team with no top 50 players and stick in the top 5 all year? How does Beard do it at a place like BFTech?

Baylor had 5 top 90 players. But whatever.

Tech about the same with a 5 star lottery pick.

But don’t let facts get in the way.


Baylor and tech have been good lately.

 

[daqman]

Baylor had 5 top 90 players. But whatever.

Tech about the same with a 5 star lottery pick.

But don’t let facts get in the way.


Baylor and tech have been good lately.

I stated the facts. Clearly.

 

[CoachTalk]

I stated the facts. Clearly.

yeah bc outside top 50 and inside 100 just suck.

 

[cyberthoth]

I have two big issues (in my mind now at least) with recruiting:

1. Taking chances on too many guys that are huge projects, and honestly, just aren't the kind of players OU should be recruiting. This can be seen by where some of these folks have transferred to.

2. Guards win basketball games. When Lon had guards like Hield/Woodard/Cousins, we won at a higher level. TY was obviously a very skilled guard, but he was a unique situation. But other than that, our guard play really hasn't been good enough. Out of guards that played most of the minutes at the 1/2 spots last year (Harmon, Williams, JB), none of them really did enough scoring-wise. We have to start getting better production from the guards we rely on. Not all of them have to score 15 a game, but we can't have 3 guards playing nearly all of the minutes at the 1/2 spots, and producing how they did. We won't get production from the 3/4/5 spots most years like we did this year, and even with that production Ken Pom had our offense rated 58th in the country. That's terrible. And most of that blame has to go to those three guards.

This X 100. The other problem with this strategy is it's so dangerous if injuries, eligibility, or transfers remotely come into play.

Look at next year for example. We're all just assuming Gibson is eligible next season but what if that doesn't happen? Who's the back up point guard then behind Harmon and what if Harmon get's hurt.

There's like nobody remotely on the roster because instead of recruiting guards who can at least fill in at point, Kruger recruited Kur, Issanza, Merritt, and Garang. Look I'm fine with having one project player like that on the roster, maybe two but not four who are all bigs.

Merritt leaves and we replace him with Harkless who may not be eligible either barring some NCAA rule change that we hope will come into play.

 

[CoachTalk]

This X 100. The other problem with this strategy is it's so dangerous if injuries, eligibility, or transfers remotely come into play.

Look at next year for example. We're all just assuming Gibson is eligible next season but what if that doesn't happen? Who's the back up point guard then behind Harmon and what if Harmon get's hurt.

There's like nobody remotely on the roster because instead of recruiting guards who can at least fill in at point, Kruger recruited Kur, Issanza, Merritt, and Garang. Look I'm fine with having one project player like that on the roster, maybe two but not four who are all bigs.

Merritt leaves and we replace him with Harkless who may not be eligible either barring some NCAA rule change that we hope will come into play.

Reaves ran the point a ton this year.

Merritt lose doesn’t hurt.

Garang is a guard. Not a post so throw in Manek and victor (not projects) and there aren’t a lot of minutes to be had.

 

[CoachTalk]

OK, well played on Manek, the sarcasm didn't come across. I like it.

But I have to fight you on the other two; sure, I understand stats don't unequivocally equal development (thanks for trying to be as condescending as possible though, very classy)...but when EVERY stat is virtually the same from the second year to the fourth year, that is the very definition of lack of development. Furthermore, if they were developed, as you say, wouldn't the coach/staff try to find several more minutes for said player, instead of basically giving them both 20 and 15 per game, respectively? Especially when they were frontcourt players at a position of need?

So, again, instead of just brushing me aside as "you're behind," like you always do when someone disagrees with you or calls out the coach...could you please give me some examples where both players developed and were significantly better in the last two years with the program, than they were in their second year in the program?

Latttin- Rebounds improved soph to sr year. Turnovers went down by half. FT% went up 20 something %. Jr year was clearly his best, minutes went down as a senior, didnt get as many opportunities.

Muni Jr year again was his best. Avg nearly doubled for most stats (you like stats) I think most can agree he wasnt the same his senior year. INjuries killed him, he was going to have a great year. I know ifs shouldve and couldves but it was clear he wasnt the same player.

Ill add a few more
SPangler from soph to sr was enormous growth as a player. Difference maker as he become an upper.

Cam clark for the short time Kruger had him. Turned him in a long time overseas pro.

 

[NY Soonerfan]

Latttin- Rebounds improved soph to sr year. Turnovers went down by half. FT% went up 20 something %. Jr year was clearly his best, minutes went down as a senior, didnt get as many opportunities.

Muni Jr year again was his best. Avg nearly doubled for most stats (you like stats) I think most can agree he wasnt the same his senior year. INjuries killed him, he was going to have a great year. I know ifs shouldve and couldves but it was clear he wasnt the same player.

Ill add a few more
SPangler from soph to sr was enormous growth as a player. Difference maker as he become an upper.

Cam clark for the short time Kruger had him. Turned him in a long time overseas pro.

I think if you're telling me one of the reason Latin improved so much is b/c his rebounds went up 0.6 per game over two years, we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

He was literally the same player he was as a sophomore as he was a senior, if you're hell bent on saying he was better, it was by about 5%. No one other than you on this board (shocking, I know) would say he was a much better player and developed significantly from year two to year four.

And to be fair so as to make it clear I'm not disagreeing with some of your others choices, I agree whole-heartedly with Spangler and Clark. But Lattin, and to a lesser but deserving degree degree McN, are nowhere close to worth of being mentioned as part of this discussion.

 

[Speedy17]

From reading this thread, you would think that every team in the Big 12 other than Kruger and OU was developing players. Truth is that most teams in the Big 12 make a run every once in while. If we are comparing Texas Tech going to the finals in 2019 and Baylor having a good team in 2020 to OU over the years, I take Lon and OU. Hey, Lon went to the Final Four in 2016 and has been in the tourney. Unfortunately, in the Big 12 only KU has been able to recruit the players necessary to be national contenders every year. That has been the case with OU at all times over the years with the exception of the Tubbs run in the late 1980's especially 1988. Even in 1988, OU was playing six players for the most part so little depth was available. Think about those great players at OU, Clifford Ray and Garfield Heard in the 1960's, Alvin Adams in the 1970's, Wayman Tisdale, Stacy King, Harvey Grant, and Mookie Blaylock in the 1980's, Eduardo Najera in the late 90's, and Buddy Hield and Trae Young in 2010's. My point is that OU has never recruited at the level to be a perennial national contender and those expecting it to change are going to be disappointed. OU is not a place where a bunch of 5-star players are going to congregate and it never will be.

Probably, the player who never lived to his potential at OU in my estimation was Lattin. He may have been the best basketball athlete ever at OU. My surprise was that given his Grandfather was David "Big Daddy" Lattin (Texas Western Center and NBA star) and his mother was Monica Lamb (women's basketball legend), it was surprising that he never developed his basketball skills like shooting and passing to an extreme level. I laud his family for not pressuring him to basketball but once he was going in that direction on his own, I would have expected him to develop more. He was simply an incredible athlete. I know he made an incredible play at the end of a game that I went to in Baton Rouge with a game saving block on the last play of the game against LSU.

 

[vbdad]

Basketball wasn't important to Lattin. He was a happy young man who had other interests than basketball. It certainly hurt OU but it was his choice and he was satisfied.

McNeace improved every year. He had no idea how to play basketball when he arrived. His senior year was a huge disappointment but the games before his injury were his best at OU. I personally don't think his injury was bad enough to cause him to miss as many games or not play well. However it was his ankle not mine.

Yes they take a bunch of projects and many haven't worked out. The coaches deserve blame in this regard. However we would be railing on them if they took short, non athletic guys who were solid players but getting killed by teams with real talent. Sometimes you just have to have the physical tools to play against the big boys. The best thing is for them to develop a few of these projects. It isn't a bad thing for a project to not make it and transfer away. You get another shot at one.

McGusty was overrated here as a freshman. He would barely have played on a good team. We had a down year in talent that year and he was able to score some. His percentages were terrible though and he still hasn't defended anyone. He also thought he was great player and should be treated as such.

 

[vbdad]

Had she just had her fill by the time she reached college, or was there something specific to the collegiate softball experience that she didn't like?

As per my name my daughters played volleyball in college. Sadly last fall was the end for me. As Steve said it is a job for these kids to play any sport. It is actually more than most jobs because it is all encompassing for their entire time of college. My daughters both loved all 4 years and would do it again. However it is a labor of love and if you don't then it becomes a burden. The fun begins to go away. Most of us had sports taken away because of talent but really when you were in college did you want to hang with your friends or go to a practice. Your freedom is lessened for sure. Athletes start thinking about what they are going to do in the future and for most it isn't a pro career.
Volleyball which is a full ride the average amount of time a girl is on scholarship is 1.3 years. There are a bunch of girls who play 4 years and a few who have 5. This means most of the girls don't even last on scholarship a full year. It is work!

I promise the basketball players have a bunch of demands from the coaches. Some guys love it but most grow weary of it. Notice Doo and all of the OSU guys said if offered another year they wouldn't take it. It was time for them to move on in life.

 

[CoachTalk]

I think if you're telling me one of the reason Latin improved so much is b/c his rebounds went up 0.6 per game over two years, we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

He was literally the same player he was as a sophomore as he was a senior, if you're hell bent on saying he was better, it was by about 5%. No one other than you on this board (shocking, I know) would say he was a much better player and developed significantly from year two to year four.

And to be fair so as to make it clear I'm not disagreeing with some of your others choices, I agree whole-heartedly with Spangler and Clark. But Lattin, and to a lesser but deserving degree degree McN, are nowhere close to worth of being mentioned as part of this discussion.

Ok lattin was a bad example. Maybe just felt better to me as he got older overall.

I get the projects part. I think Garang will flourish at some point. Big Rick. IDK.

But to say Kruger doesn’t develop is a bad take. Are their misses? Sure.

 

[steverocks35]

As per my name my daughters played volleyball in college. Sadly last fall was the end for me. As Steve said it is a job for these kids to play any sport. It is actually more than most jobs because it is all encompassing for their entire time of college. My daughters both loved all 4 years and would do it again. However it is a labor of love and if you don't then it becomes a burden. The fun begins to go away. Most of us had sports taken away because of talent but really when you were in college did you want to hang with your friends or go to a practice. Your freedom is lessened for sure. Athletes start thinking about what they are going to do in the future and for most it isn't a pro career.
Volleyball which is a full ride the average amount of time a girl is on scholarship is 1.3 years. There are a bunch of girls who play 4 years and a few who have 5. This means most of the girls don't even last on scholarship a full year. It is work!

I promise the basketball players have a bunch of demands from the coaches. Some guys love it but most grow weary of it. Notice Doo and all of the OSU guys said if offered another year they wouldn't take it. It was time for them to move on in life.

Yeah this is all true. For my daughter, she went from elite travel and high school programs to mediocre college programs. She went from traveling to places like Kansas City, Austin, and Denver, staying in nice hotels and hanging with good friends, while dominating on the field and in school ball going to state every year with girls she grew up playing ball with, to riding a crappy bus to places like Pittsburgh, Kansas, playing a double-header, then riding back while trying to get some homework done. We all know that college work is vastly different than high school work. It was just a job and she was like, "Dad what is the point of this? There are like 10 people at our games?" I was like, "The point is to get college paid for." Lol

 

[CoachTalk]

[tweet] https://twitter.com/ou_mbball/status/1251237869995331586?s=21[/tweet]

Big Rick

 

[Soonerinkc]

Yeah this is all true. For my daughter, she went from elite travel and high school programs to mediocre college programs. She went from traveling to places like Kansas City, Austin, and Denver, staying in nice hotels and hanging with good friends, while dominating on the field and in school ball going to state every year with girls she grew up playing ball with, to riding a crappy bus to places like Pittsburgh, Kansas, playing a double-header, then riding back while trying to get some homework done. We all know that college work is vastly different than high school work. It was just a job and she was like, "Dad what is the point of this? There are like 10 people at our games?" I was like, "The point is to get college paid for." Lol

Lol yup... my son was a pitcher D1 Juco in ks....

Fall ball- left campus at 7 am traveled to Oklahoma to play a small 4 yr school... won the DH... coach wasn’t happy... got back at 7 pm... played 7 one inning games... losers ran polls.... got back to dorm around 9:45pm

THIS WAS FALL BALL.... he pitched 1 inning in the inner squad games.

It’s a job...