Ryan Spangler

[WTSooner]

Pledger's production will drop off measureably next season.

I bet it doesn't. He will probably get a few less minutes (which would be good for anybody), but I think he'll be more efficient. Who is going to steal shots from him? Nobody. Certainly not some true freshmen that won't even start. And yes, I can definitively say that, and I'm fans of both. To suggest that if somebody else on the team somehow had taken some of Pledger's "points" we'd be a better team is laughable. He was our most efficient scorer. And I pray to God that we get more production out of the 1 and 3 spots next year, b/c Pledger will get even MORE open shots. You say he didn't work hard, I say he worked as hard as any OU player in recent memory to get his shots. Talk about a kid that was hounded.

 

[garyeb2]

I bet it doesn't. He will probably get a few less minutes (which would be good for anybody), but I think he'll be more efficient. Who is going to steal shots from him? Nobody. Certainly not some true freshmen that won't even start. And yes, I can definitively say that, and I'm fans of both. To suggest that if somebody else on the team somehow had taken some of Pledger's "points" we'd be a better team is laughable. He was our most efficient scorer. And I pray to God that we get more production out of the 1 and 3 spots next year, b/c Pledger will get even MORE open shots. You say he didn't work hard, I say he worked as hard as any OU player in recent memory to get his shots. Talk about a kid that was hounded.

Part of this disagreement will play itself out. I'll say his point production will be closer to the 10 he averaged as soph. than the 16 he averaged as a jr.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

I bet it doesn't. He will probably get a few less minutes (which would be good for anybody), but I think he'll be more efficient. Who is going to steal shots from him? Nobody. Certainly not some true freshmen that won't even start. And yes, I can definitively say that, and I'm fans of both. To suggest that if somebody else on the team somehow had taken some of Pledger's "points" we'd be a better team is laughable. He was our most efficient scorer. And I pray to God that we get more production out of the 1 and 3 spots next year, b/c Pledger will get even MORE open shots. You say he didn't work hard, I say he worked as hard as any OU player in recent memory to get his shots. Talk about a kid that was hounded.

:clap
:clap

 

[sperry]

Pledger is very likely to end his OU career #1 in made 3 point field goals, and he is nothing but a "decent" shooter? He shot over 40% from 3 this season, despite being the constant focus of other teams defense. That 3 point percentage would be considerably higher if his defender occasionally had to collapse to help out with a driving point guard, or had to collapse down on a Thomas Robinson/ Perry Jones type big man. Pledger is an elite shooter. On this offensively limited OU team he gets very few open looks AND has to shoot it more often than he would on a good team, yet he's still hitting an excellent 41% from deep.

 

[Section31]

Pledger is very likely to end his OU career #1 in made 3 point field goals, and he is nothing but a "decent" shooter? He shot over 40% from 3 this season, despite being the constant focus of other teams defense. That 3 point percentage would be considerably higher if his defender occasionally had to collapse to help out with a driving point guard, or had to collapse down on a Thomas Robinson/ Perry Jones type big man. Pledger is an elite shooter. On this offensively limited OU team he gets very few open looks AND has to shoot it more often than he would on a good team, yet he's still hitting an excellent 41% from deep.

:clap:clap

 

[garyeb2]

Pledger is very likely to end his OU career #1 in made 3 point field goals, and he is nothing but a "decent" shooter? He shot over 40% from 3 this season, despite being the constant focus of other teams defense. That 3 point percentage would be considerably higher if his defender occasionally had to collapse to help out with a driving point guard, or had to collapse down on a Thomas Robinson/ Perry Jones type big man. Pledger is an elite shooter. On this offensively limited OU team he gets very few open looks AND has to shoot it more often than he would on a good team, yet he's still hitting an excellent 41% from deep.

sperry, I know what Pledger's stats are. And they don't have anything to do with what I'm saying.

With the exception of shooting the ball, Pledger's presence on the court is killing this team. He is a liability if the objective is to win games. In no other phase of the game is he remotely close to competent. And on defense he is absolutely terrible. It would be virtually impossible for Pledger to score enough points to makeup for the cost of having him on the floor. Well, mayby if he were getting 25 or so, he might be getting close to breakeven.

Trying to build a case that Pledger is something special on a 5-13 team just because he was the current best available option, is akin to saying he was the tallest midget. OU needs better players at most every position. But, the addition of those players won't be for the purpose of enhancing Pledgers preasent. They will serve the purpose of reducing Kruger's dependency on Pledger. And the team will be better for it.

 

[DenverSooner]

Let me rephrase that. With the possible exception of Osby, last years starters would be bench players on a good team. Last years bench players would not have been recruited by a good team.

If OU wants to be a good team again, they need players good enough to start for a good team.

OU was a solid team most years when Godbold was on the team. You don't think Pledger could play a role like Godbold for a good team? He is a better shooter.

I think with the right group of players, Pledger could start on lots of teams. Lets say Pledger was a 3, Page was a two and Pierre Jackson was the pg. You don't think that would be a very good set of back court players?

Lets say you put Fitzgerald with Blake Griffin. That would be a good set of forwards. Fitzgerald would force his man to cover the 15 foot jump shot opening things up for Griffin.

Lets say you put Grooms with Page and Pledger. That is two really good shooters and would work in my opinion.

I don't think these guys are terrible I just think their missing skills amplify each other. Clark and Grooms both being poor shooters is a much larger problem then one of them being a poor shooter. Pledger and Fitzgerald both being a bit slow defensively amplify each other.

 

[WTSooner]

OU was a solid team most years when Godbold was on the team. You don't think Pledger could play a role like Godbold for a good team? He is a better shooter.

He really thinks that poorly of Pledger. I'll admit Pledger isn't exactly fleet of foot, but his speed is no worse then several other players that started for multiple years at OU, on teams that went to the NCAA Tournament. Godbold and Heskett come to mind. Pledger may appear to be a worse defender (to the untrained eye) than he really is, b/c the entire team plays pretty mediocre defense. That said, I think any negative talk about Pledger's defense is probably overstated. I've watched nearly every minute of every game this season, and I don't see his defense as being that poor. And for Fitz, his on the ball defense is adequate, but he is slow to help and recover, which has become more important for big men over the years, with the versatility of opposing big men.

I'm glad Pledger is a Sooner, and I think he'll have a very important role on the team next year, and his points per game will probably be 14+.

 

[DenverSooner]

Pledger's personal stats prove he is a good player. The guy is going to be a top 10 all time scorer at OU. It just isn't fair to blame Pledger for all of OU's problems. The team would be a lot worse without him.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

I don't think these guys are terrible I just think their missing skills amplify each other. Clark and Grooms both being poor shooters is a much larger problem then one of them being a poor shooter. Pledger and Fitzgerald both being a bit slow defensively amplify each other.

I think this is a very intelligent statement.

Grooms had a solid performance in his first season and if he had any other person to dish to other than Pledger that could hit open looks consistently, his numbers would have been even better. Pledger had a good season overall given that by the time conference play came around, every team knew that we had no other threat aside from him to make an open three-point shot.

As for Fitzgerald, what he was asked to do on the defensive end shows me that CLK was going to play a "system" and not necessarily to "strengths". I say this because Fitzgerald, who is very limited laterally as well as vertically was consistently seeking to deny on the perimeter and then get back down low. Not his "strength" but I can see that being part of the "system" and I'm okay with that over the long term.

Here is what I think happens: Kruger finds a guy that can shoot from the JUCO ranks [they are out there] and hopes that either Heild or Hornbeak can compete right away. If that happens, I think that we will be better next season. FWIW, I'm not a big proponent of any player on a team that finished almost dead last in the conference having his spot locked up for the next season, that includes Pledger.

 

[Big Old Booger]

He really thinks that poorly of Pledger. I'll admit Pledger isn't exactly fleet of foot, but his speed is no worse then several other players that started for multiple years at OU, on teams that went to the NCAA Tournament. Godbold and Heskett come to mind. Pledger may appear to be a worse defender (to the untrained eye) than he really is, b/c the entire team plays pretty mediocre defense. That said, I think any negative talk about Pledger's defense is probably overstated. I've watched nearly every minute of every game this season, and I don't see his defense as being that poor. And for Fitz, his on the ball defense is adequate, but he is slow to help and recover, which has become more important for big men over the years, with the versatility of opposing big men.

I'm glad Pledger is a Sooner, and I think he'll have a very important role on the team next year, and his points per game will probably be 14+.

Kelley Newton and Michael Neal too.

 

[garyeb2]

He really thinks that poorly of Pledger. I'll admit Pledger isn't exactly fleet of foot, but his speed is no worse then several other players that started for multiple years at OU, on teams that went to the NCAA Tournament. Godbold and Heskett come to mind. Pledger may appear to be a worse defender (to the untrained eye) than he really is, b/c the entire team plays pretty mediocre defense. That said, I think any negative talk about Pledger's defense is probably overstated. I've watched nearly every minute of every game this season, and I don't see his defense as being that poor. And for Fitz, his on the ball defense is adequate, but he is slow to help and recover, which has become more important for big men over the years, with the versatility of opposing big men.

I'm glad Pledger is a Sooner, and I think he'll have a very important role on the team next year, and his points per game will probably be 14+.

WT, I'll take you back to the Monday after the Idaho St. game. There were a few times over the course of the season when there was a point that the coach's intensity and practice intensity went up. This was the 1st of those points of time. Up until that day Kruger was playing more of a school marm role.

Idaho St. was a really bad team and OU almost lost to them at home. Pledger missed the game due to a suspension.

The routine was that practice started at 2:00. The players were all on the court by 1:30 just shooting and loosening up as customary. There was usally an assistant or two out working with individual players on something. Always low key and casual for that 30 min. Kruger would appear at midcourt around
2:00, hudle the players up for a few minutes and practice would commence. Mondays had always been alittle different. That was film day. They would all go back upstairs for film and then be back down in 20 min. or so and practice would commence. As a sidednote, for that time Coach Hill always kept the two walkons and M'baye on the court and put them thru shooting or skill drills. Usually always a good show.

But, back to the story. This Monday was different. Kruger got them upstairs alittle early and kept them till after 2:30. Almost twice as long. When they came down it was grim. The players were quiet and subdued and the coach's jaws were set. It was unmistakeable. This day was different.

That day, there was only myself and mayby 3 others watching. First thing out of the box was a man to man 3 on 3 defensive drill for the 1's. They put Pledger guarding M'baye. My first thought was that was alittle unusual and likely not to be pretty. And it wasn't. M'baye beat him left,right,around, over, and thru time after time over and over. And it went on and on. The longer it went the further Cruthfield crawled up Pledger's butt. It was brutal and I actually felt bad for the kid. At the time I really couldn't click on why they did it to him. Later, I decided that since they didn't have Idaho St. game film to beat him up with, they needed to get his attention in another way.

Now, players of Blairs caliber and better routinly beat Pledger one on one. That wasn't new. But, M'baye put a schooling on him. Made him look like a 3rd grader playing HS ball. WT, if you had seen that, you would never again try defend Pledger's defensive abilities. Every time you do it, I think of that one practice and know I'm right.

M'Baye is going to be a good player for Oklahoma. Any other of OU's players would have their hands full defending him one on one. But, this exercise started with M'Baye catching the ball on the peremeter. None of the other starters,including Fitz, would have got cut up like that.

 

[vbdad]

Pledger is a good shooter! He is a terrible ball handler. He doesn't play defense. He doesn't work hard to get open most of the time. He certainly loses focus and doesn't play with intensity. Yes he would be better as a role player and is a division one player but not a star.

Who says Coach Kruger likes these guys. Kruger is one of the most intense competitors that has ever played sports. These guys are so passive it is sickening. How about the guys on the team who do the bare minimum and don't care if they get playing time or not. They are cruising because there is no talent on the team and they don't care if they play or not next year. If Kruger wasn't such a good person most of these guys would be gone.

 

[Soonerman]

I'm going to laugh my ass off when this team, essentially the exact same, wins 18+ games next year and makes a post-season tourney. Can't wait to hear the excuses then.

"oh, if we had a guy that shot 42% from 3 point land instead of a terrible 41%, then we would have won 24 games!"

"Guys, I'm special and in the know and go to every practice, so you'll just have to take my word that Pledger is still the worst player on this team. How did we manage to make the NCAA tourney with one of the best shooters in the conference??"

:facepalm

 

[jmizzy4ou]

Pledger is a good shooter! He is a terrible ball handler. He doesn't play defense. He doesn't work hard to get open most of the time. He certainly loses focus and doesn't play with intensity. Yes he would be better as a role player and is a division one player but not a star.

Who says Coach Kruger likes these guys. Kruger is one of the most intense competitors that has ever played sports. These guys are so passive it is sickening. How about the guys on the team who do the bare minimum and don't care if they get playing time or not. They are cruising because there is no talent on the team and they don't care if they play or not next year. If Kruger wasn't such a good person most of these guys would be gone.[/QUOTE]

Well, we are all entitled to our own opinions, and obviously this entire post consists of nothing but yours.......

The bolded part is some of the craziest stuff I have read on this board. Do you personally know LK or the players?? Do you have intimate knowledge if LK "likes certain players"?? Coaches aren't paid to " like players", they are paid to coach, nurture, train, and prepare young men/women, who happen to be college athletes. I bet you couldn't get LK to bash any kid who works hard, goes to class, and shows improvement, no matter what his weaknesses are. To say the kids don't care, and are just cruising along, shows me you also probably never played competitive sports......:facepalm:facepalm

 

[Big Old Booger]

Pledger is a good shooter! He is a terrible ball handler. He doesn't play defense. He doesn't work hard to get open most of the time. He certainly loses focus and doesn't play with intensity. Yes he would be better as a role player and is a division one player but not a star.

Who says Coach Kruger likes these guys. Kruger is one of the most intense competitors that has ever played sports. These guys are so passive it is sickening. How about the guys on the team who do the bare minimum and don't care if they get playing time or not. They are cruising because there is no talent on the team and they don't care if they play or not next year. If Kruger wasn't such a good person most of these guys would be gone.

Not sure what your definition of "like" is, but I would guess since the kids keep their nose clean, go to class, and represent the University in a positive light he has no problem with them. This means I think he likes them.

I'm sure, like most coaches, he wishes he had better players to push these guys more and to improve the athleticism of the team as a whole, but I don't believe for one second he doesn't "like" these guys.

CLK is not the type of coach (and even if he was JC and DB wouldn't allow him) to cut players because they aren't good enough. It's not like these guys are Kyle Hardrick or something.

 

[garyeb2]

I'm going to laugh my ass off when this team, essentially the exact same, wins 18+ games next year and makes a post-season tourney. Can't wait to hear the excuses then.

"oh, if we had a guy that shot 42% from 3 point land instead of a terrible 41%, then we would have won 24 games!"

"Guys, I'm special and in the know and go to every practice, so you'll just have to take my word that Pledger is still the worst player on this team. How did we manage to make the NCAA tourney with one of the best shooters in the conference??"

:facepalm

Why do you want to stop at 18 wins. I think the over/under number for them should be 20 wins. The reason is they wil not be essentially the same team.

M'Baye will be a difference maker. He will replace either Cam or Fitz in the starting lineup and that alone makes the team better. Osby shoud be as good all year as he was down the stretch.

Hield and Hornbeak plus the at least two to be named later wil be significant roster upgrades. However minutes they get will be an upgrade over whoever was getting them in the past. The team will be better for it.

Incremental improvements from Grooms,Arent, and the others will make the team better. After a year in the system the offensive and defensive brain fart bust should decrease. The team will be better for it.

I think next year will be alot easier being an OU fan. Why don't you?

 

[WTSooner]

Why do you want to stop at 18 wins. I think the over/under number for them should be 20 wins. The reason is they wil not be essentially the same team.

M'Baye will be a difference maker. He will replace either Cam or Fitz in the starting lineup and that alone makes the team better. Osby shoud be as good all year as he was down the stretch.

Hield and Hornbeak plus the at least two to be named later wil be significant roster upgrades. However minutes they get will be an upgrade over whoever was getting them in the past. The team will be better for it.

Incremental improvements from Grooms,Arent, and the others will make the team better. After a year in the system the offensive and defensive brain fart bust should decrease. The team will be better for it.

I think next year will be alot easier being an OU fan. Why don't you?

If you expect 20 wins out of them, then why do you keep saying we can't make the tournament with these guys? 20 wins probably gets us there, and if not, it puts us on the bubble.

 

[garyeb2]

If you expect 20 wins out of them, then why do you keep saying we can't make the tournament with these guys? 20 wins probably gets us there, and if not, it puts us on the bubble.

WT, for a guy that wants to take shots at everything I say, you don't follow the conversation very closely. Start by reading the above post.

As flawed as they were, they won 15. M'baye and the freshmen should get them 5 more. I did say that with Pledger and Fitz on the floor they could never be a good team. For the simple reason that they couldn't defend a good team. And I also said that they could be OK if only one of them was in the game.

There are several combinations that could materialise to accomodate that. I give the freshmen more of a shot to play big miutes than you do. For instance, what if Heild continues to make shots once he gets to campus. Is it a stretch to give him a shot at gobbling up some of Cams minutes? I don't think so. That would free M'Baye up to get Fitz's minutes. And there you you go. A much better team.

It only takes about a top 40 team to get in. Still way below OU standards. But, they will be better.

 

[WTSooner]

WT, for a guy that wants to take shots at everything I say, you don't follow the conversation very closely. Start by reading the above post.

As flawed as they were, they won 15. M'baye and the freshmen should get them 5 more. I did say that with Pledger and Fitz on the floor they could never be a good team. For the simple reason that they couldn't defend a good team. And I also said that they could be OK if only one of them was in the game.

There are several combinations that could materialise to accomodate that. I give the freshmen more of a shot to play big miutes than you do. For instance, what if Heild continues to make shots once he gets to campus. Is it a stretch to give him a shot at gobbling up some of Cams minutes? I don't think so. That would free M'Baye up to get Fitz's minutes. And there you you go. A much better team.

It only takes about a top 40 team to get in. Still way below OU standards. But, they will be better.

I've already told you the two frosh aren't going to start. You need to trust me on that. So my question to you is this.....assuming M'Baye starts over Cam or Fitz, and Pledger plays much like he did this year (in minutes, points, and percentages), do you think OU can make the Dance? Because in the past, as recently as the last two days (I think), you said OU couldn't make the Dance without replacing two starters. So which is it?

A link to a recent comment of yours:

http://ouhoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=345855&postcount=6

This is my story and I'm sticking to it. This years team wasn't terrible. They weren't average and they certainly weren't good. But, they were not bad.

With the new faces, they will be measurably better next season. But, if they fans look up and see Pledger and Fitz in the starting lineup again, the team will not be good. Good teams don't have players that klomp around from one place to the other on offense and don't defend on the other end.

With hopefully a little talent upgrade coming, Kruger may be able to pull off alittle magic if he only has to play one of them significant minutes. But, he can not do it if they are both the current best available option again.