Shaka Smart at UT

[skyvue]

We are soft and I don’t see any reason to believe coach LK will develop any toughness in this team in the coming years. I hope I’m wrong.

You keep saying this team is soft and that this is a consistent issue with Kruger-coached teams; and I don't think either stance is true. It certainly wasn't true of the Hield-Spangler-Cousins-Woodard teams. This team has gotten blown out a couple of times, but generally they have fought to the end and their defense has been much improved over last season.

 

[Zimwillett]

This thread is full of macro arguments, let’s look at a micro argument. Does anyone remember a single Kelvin Sampson coached team that wasn’t tough and had mental lapses with players that moped and pouted? Right now we are seeing a bunch of guys come into the program who aren’t tough and leaving the program without developing any toughness. That’s my single biggest issue. We are soft and I don’t see any reason to believe coach LK will develop any toughness in this team in the coming years. I hope I’m wrong.

No argument there. I will consistently reiterate that I do not give Lon a pass for these last few years. I do not accept that OU is a sub .500 team in this conference, no matter how good or bad it is. All I'm trying to say is that it's just not an apples to apples comparison between Kelvin and Lon if you are looking exclusively at conference records.

Plus, I think it's fun to go back and look at this historical stuff and blow up some of these notions. For example, I also thought ISU was a really good program during that time. Turns out, outside of the 1999-2001 run they had, they were actually pretty bad.

 

[WTSooner]

It also doesn't matter that when Kelvin was coach, maybe there were 1-2 perennially bad teams, and now, it fluctuates. There are still generally a couple of bad teams every season. WVU and OSU this season, for example. That doesn't change the argument being made here.

 

[thebigabd]

For me, the conference record is so unforgivable because there are essentially three things that OU can accomplish in a season.

1.) Big 12 Regular Season Championship
2.) Big 12 Tournament Championship
3.) A Sweet 16 or Better Run in the NCAA Tournament

2 of the 3 are not being done well by Lon Kruger. He has a crap record in the regular season and Big 12 tournament. OU has never won a national championship in basketball in over a century, so that is not something that can be expected. But those 3 can be expected and its not happening.

This season won't be remembered as some huge failure, because they did make the NCAA Tournament and beat OSU, Texas, and Kansas... Those are nice things, but the above listed things are what OU is actually trying to accomplish.

Can we agree on that?

 

[BCSooners]

This reasoning always makes me laugh. I guess if you lower expectations for your program enough and then exceed them it should be called a success.

The expectations for this year with the given roster, not every year. The expectations at OU is make the tournament almost every year with good runs every few years.

 

[mict085]

This thread is full of macro arguments, let’s look at a micro argument. Does anyone remember a single Kelvin Sampson coached team that wasn’t tough and had mental lapses with players that moped and pouted? Right now we are seeing a bunch of guys come into the program who aren’t tough and leaving the program without developing any toughness. That’s my single biggest issue. We are soft and I don’t see any reason to believe coach LK will develop any toughness in this team in the coming years. I hope I’m wrong.

I’m not trying to defend anyone. However, I also remember the 8-10 minute scoring droughts every game that were very typical of every kelvin samspon team, with 1-2 exceptions. Also, every time Sampson’s teams were in first place or challenging for the title, there would be the classic 3-4 game losing streak that would eliminate any possibility of winning a conferemce title. Not to mention losing in the first round 70% of the time and playing below seed 90% of the time in the tourney.

But, yeah were they tough. I really liked Sampson up until the way he left the program.

As for Lon’s teams...I can’t stand watching a soft team. It irritates the hell out of me to watch my team get pushed around and then watch them pout about it. It’s disgusting.

 

[WichitaSooner]

It also doesn't matter that when Kelvin was coach, maybe there were 1-2 perennially bad teams, and now, it fluctuates. There are still generally a couple of bad teams every season. WVU and OSU this season, for example. That doesn't change the argument being made here.

Lol at one or two bad teams. We've all given four or five teams that were terrible each year back then.

 

[WichitaSooner]

For me, the conference record is so unforgivable because there are essentially three things that OU can accomplish in a season.

1.) Big 12 Regular Season Championship
2.) Big 12 Tournament Championship
3.) A Sweet 16 or Better Run in the NCAA Tournament

2 of the 3 are not being done well by Lon Kruger. He has a crap record in the regular season and Big 12 tournament. OU has never won a national championship in basketball in over a century, so that is not something that can be expected. But those 3 can be expected and its not happening.

This season won't be remembered as some huge failure, because they did make the NCAA Tournament and beat OSU, Texas, and Kansas... Those are nice things, but the above listed things are what OU is actually trying to accomplish.

Can we agree on that?

No, because this gives zero consideration to the first half of the season. I am like the committee in that I value every game on the schedule. There is absolutely value in playing a good nonconference schedule and doing well against it, and Lon does that basically every year.

 

[thebigabd]

No, because this gives zero consideration to the first half of the season. I am like the committee in that I value every game on the schedule. There is absolutely value in playing a good nonconference schedule and doing well against it, and Lon does that basically every year.

Wichita.... They don't give a title for the non-conference season. The 3 things I listed get you a net or a banner as a way to glorify the great season you had. Creates a memorable season, not one where you simply just survived.

Beating random teams in the non-conference is not some memorable accomplishment. Nobody will even remember playing Wofford last November.

The things I listed are the objectives of the program... Big 12 Regular Season, Big 12 Tournament, Sweet 16 or better.

 

[WTSooner]

Wichita.... They don't give a title for the non-conference season. The 3 things I listed get you a net or a banner as a way to glorify the great season you had. Creates a memorable season, not one where you simply just survived.

Beating random teams in the non-conference is not some memorable accomplishment. Nobody will even remember playing Wofford last November.

The things I listed are the objectives of the program... Big 12 Regular Season, Big 12 Tournament, Sweet 16 or better.

Agreed.

And OU played a pretty solid/decent OOC schedule, and still played some bigger named schools that stunk (ND, Dayton, USC), and schools like RIO, UTSA, & NT). Really hard to gauge how good a team is in OOC games. But against conference foes, your peers, that is where you can start to tell.

Saw a stat last night that said teams that finish under .500 in conference, and/or teams that get beat out in the first round of their conference tournaments, don't typically win more than one game at most in the Dance. Regardless of how spectacular they were during the OOC portion of their schedule.

That was nearly 4 months ago at this point. I care about the recent.

 

[skyvue]

Wichita.... They don't give a title for the non-conference season. The 3 things I listed get you a net or a banner as a way to glorify the great season you had. Creates a memorable season, not one where you simply just survived.

So making the tourney means nothing. 20 wins in a rebuilding year mean nothing. 25 wins mean nothing. All-Conference awards for individual players mean nothing. Player of the year awards (conference and national) mean nothing. (We could -- and have -- accomplished each of those without a net or a banner).

 

[WTSooner]

So making the tourney means nothing. 20 wins in a rebuilding year mean nothing. 25 wins mean nothing. All-Conference awards for individual players mean nothing. Player of the year awards (conference and national) mean nothing. (We could -- and have -- accomplished each of those without a net or a banner).

Why was this a rebuilding year? We lot TY from a mediocre team, and got rid of a player that everybody said was a cancer in McGusty. We returned Doolittle, Manek, James, Odomes, and brought in two fairly well thought of grad transfer guards. McNeace returned as well. That is a TON of seniors and experience.

A rebuilding year is like next year when we turn over more than half of our roster, and bring in a number of guys that haven't played much if any college ball, and in some cases, won't have played for nearly 2 years (Reaves). And what was 2017? So 2017 was a rebuild, 2018 a failed year, and another rebound in 2019? 2017 was Kruger's 6th season. Why do we have two rebuilding years in a coach's 6th through 8th seasons? And 3 out of 4 if next year can be called a rebuild as well (which I probably would). That is crazy.

 

[thebigabd]

So making the tourney means nothing. 20 wins in a rebuilding year mean nothing. 25 wins mean nothing. All-Conference awards for individual players mean nothing. Player of the year awards (conference and national) mean nothing. (We could -- and have -- accomplished each of those without a net or a banner).

I think making the tourney means something. We still have a chance at goal #3 I listed. A run in the NCAA Tournament.

So you don't agree that the program objectives for OU are to:

1.) Compete for a Big 12 Regular Season Championship
2.) Compete for the Big 12 Tournament Championship
3.) Go on a Sweet 16 or Better Run in the NCAA Tournament

Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[skyvue]

Why was this a rebuilding year?

Where did I say this was a rebuilding year? (Not sure if you're aware of it, but we don't have 20 wins this season.) I just knew that if I cited 20 wins as an accomplishment without a qualifier, the GHE crowd would jump on that point (ignoring all the others, as they tend to do), so I included the rebuilding year mention to provide some context.

Conference championships and seasons in which we advance to the Sweet 16 or higher are great, but any Sooner fan who views those as the only accomplishments that make a given season worthy pf enjoying/celebrating is going to be a miserable so-and-so.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Wichita.... They don't give a title for the non-conference season. The 3 things I listed get you a net or a banner as a way to glorify the great season you had. Creates a memorable season, not one where you simply just survived.

Beating random teams in the non-conference is not some memorable accomplishment. Nobody will even remember playing Wofford last November.

The things I listed are the objectives of the program... Big 12 Regular Season, Big 12 Tournament, Sweet 16 or better.

They are YOUR objectives for the program. I agree with all of them, but don't agree they are the only ones. The past two years have proven that even though certain posters only care about games played after January 1, every game matters the same when it comes to accomplishing the primary goal of making the tournament.

I don't get why some people are fixated on conference record at the expense of everything else. Again, I am not saying it isn't important. But for people to pretend like two great months in nonconference is irrelevant is just foolish. Every bracketologist made the same point repeatedly -- the one longtime, consistent theme over the years, despite adjustments to the formula, is this: teams get rewarded for playing (and doing well against) a good noncon, and get punished for playing a bad noncon.

And as for WT -- Dayton didn't remotely stink. ND was clearly down this year, but we played them before they lost a starter to a torn ACL. It is just so ignorant to continue ignoring every metric that measures nonconference schedule strength in favor of your own, subjective, "how can I find a way to downgrade what Lon's team accomplished" metric. No different than judging the team based on how the year would have looked IF we didn't win certain games. And even if you somehow honestly don't believe that our schedule was very good, at least have the sense to acknowledge that it was a very smart schedule. Again, every school in America knows the formula for building a schedule that sets you up for the tourney. Lon, Shep, and Joe C are among the best at actually putting that into practice, so credit to them.

 

[skyvue]

I think making the tourney means something. We still have a chance at goal #3 I listed. A run in the NCAA Tournament.

So you don't agree that the program objectives for OU are to:

1.) Compete for a Big 12 Regular Season Championship
2.) Compete for the Big 12 Tournament Championship
3.) Go on a Sweet 16 or Better Run in the NCAA Tournament

Am I understanding you correctly?

I don't think those are the only program objectives, no. And I don't necessarily consider, as you seem to, a failure a year in which we don't reach any of those objectives. It depends upon the circumstances.

This season, we exceeded the stated expectations of many on this board, but many of those same posters are now *****ing and moaning about the season we had and looking for ways to discount our tourney berth, as if they find it personally objectionable that we received an invite.

 

[sheepdogs1]

I don't think those are the only program objectives, no. And I don't necessarily consider, as you seem to, a failure a year in which we don't reach any of those objectives. It depends upon the circumstances.

This season, we exceeded the stated expectations of many on this board, but many of those same posters are now *****ing and moaning about the season we had and looking for ways to discount our tourney berth, as if they find it personally objectionable that we received an invite.

They're Bills fans.

 

[Ghost of Gar Heard]

The expectations for this year with the given roster, not every year. The expectations at OU is make the tournament almost every year with good runs every few years.

I would agree this is realistic. Maybe a run at a conference championship & Final 4 with every group of 4 year players.

 

[steverocks35]

I don’t see how anyone who watched us play this year can describe us as anything but soft

 

[BCSooners]

I don’t see how anyone who watched us play this year can describe us as anything but soft

Manek, Freeman, & at times James & Calixte were soft. Odomes & Doolittle are tough players, bienemy & Reynolds aren’t soft. Last years team was soft, this team isn’t the toughest but isn’t soft.