The knee to Groves' head

[NickZepp]

in 0 universe should it have ever been a no call .

Well we live in that universe.

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[skyvue]

Fouls get called all the time when the action is not intentional. All the time. Even flagrant fouls. I've seen fouls get called many times for an elbow on a rebound when there was no question it was not intentional. It still got called.

Think of a guy who uses a pump fake to get a guy up in the air. If that guy lands on the shooter, it's going to be a foul every time, even though the defender did not intentionally land on the shooter.

And stating that Groves wasn't hurt is ridiculous. He went to the bench and you could tell his head was spinning at the very least. Adrenaline takes over at times like that. You get kneed to the head and there's no foul, you're going to be up on your feet in anger.

It's unfathomable that they reviewed that call and didn't change the ruling. They cited a lack of intent but again, we've all seen dozens of flagrant calls that weren't dependent on intent and thousands of regular foul calls that weren't. I'm almost convinced they refused to correct the call because they'd already called the T. That would have made them look doubly bad and might have been difficult to sort out. Does KU still get to shoot the T if the call was changed to flagrant 1? Do they shoot the T shot and then OU shoots the flagrant FTs and get the ball or does KU get the ball because of the T? Is the ref prepared to look like a total idiot for calling the T after totally missing a flagrant 1?

It's entirely possible they took the easy way out by letting the call stand.

And FWIW, Toby said during the live radio broadcast that Moser came over to him and Kevin Henry and asked them what exactly happened on the play. It seems he was not sure exactly what had occurred and of course, unlike the radio guys, he had no access to replay.

 

[steverocks35]

Fouls get called all the time when the action is not intentional. All the time. Even flagrant fouls. I've seen fouls get called many times for an elbow on a rebound when there was no question it was not intentional. It still got called.

Think of a guy who uses a pump fake to get a guy up in the air. If that guy lands on the shooter, it's going to be a foul every time, even though the defender did not intentionally land on the shooter. You're so eager to be the tough guy who mocks all anyone who criticizes officiating that you're taking a stand on perhaps the worst call we'll see all season (I certainly hope it is).

And stating that Groves wasn't hurt is ridiculous. He went to the bench and you could tell his head was spinning at the very least. Adrenaline takes over at times like that. You get kneed to the head and there's no foul, you're going to be up on your feet in anger.

It's unfathomable that they reviewed that call and didn't change the ruling. They cited a lack of intent but again, we've all seen dozens of flagrant calls that weren't dependent on intent and thousands of regular foul calls that weren't. I'm almost convinced they refused to correct the call because they'd already called the T. That would have made them look doubly bad and might have been difficult to sort out. Does KU still get to shoot the T if the call was changed to flagrant 1? Do they shoot the T shot and then OU shoots the flagrant FTs and get the ball or does KU get the ball because of the T? Is the ref prepared to look like a total idiot for calling the T after totally missing a flagrant 1?

It's entirely possible they took the easy way out by letting the call stand.

And FWIW, Toby said during the live radio broadcast that Moser came over to him and Kevin Henry and asked them what exactly happened on the play. It seems he was not sure exactly what had occurred and of course, unlike the radio guys, he had no access to replay.

Okay, let me ask you my earlier hypothetical. If you dive for a loose ball and a guy is running up the court and he knees you in the head during the dive, is that a flagrant foul?

Groves bent to go for the ball at the same time Mayer was jumping. It's the exact same scenario.

And I'm not trying to be a tough guy. I don't care about that. I'm just explaining the rationale behind the call as I see it. I also said it could have gone either way, but him jumping up and immediately arguing didn't help his case.

 

[BoulderSooner]

Okay, let me ask you my earlier hypothetical. If you dive for a loose ball and a guy is running up the court and he knees you in the head during the dive, is that a flagrant foul?

Groves bent to go for the ball at the same time Mayer was jumping. It's the exact same scenario.

And I'm not trying to be a tough guy. I don't care about that. I'm just explaining the rationale behind the call as I see it. I also said it could have gone either way, but him jumping up and immediately arguing didn't help his case.

no it is not the same ... mayer jumped above Groves vertical space ..

mayer did not just jump up in the air he jumped foward ..

 

[steverocks35]

no it is not the same ... mayer jumped above Groves vertical space ..

mayer did not just jump up in the air he jumped foward ..

Groves bent down at the same time. And in my scenario the guy is running forward into the guy who is diving for the loose ball. It's exactly the same scenario. Should both scenarios be a flagrant foul?

 

[Sooner Season]

A few key points.......

Moser mentioned in his presser after the game that he had not seen it yet.

According to Parker Thune, who was videoing courtside Groves words were "Man, he hit me in the head"

The official who T'd Groves (Doug Sermon) told the other officials to tell Moser it was going to cost him a timeout if he reviewed the call and didn't see anything. Obviously his ego was involved and do you think he was about to admit he missed something after that comment?

As for the act itself, there was no reason for him to jump up with his knee in a basketball sense, and as we all know, intentional or unintentional, contact to the head is a flagrant.

 

[steverocks35]

A few key points.......

Moser mentioned in his presser after the game that he had not seen it yet.

According to Parker Thune, who was videoing courtside Groves words were "Man, he hit me in the head"

The official who T'd Groves (Doug Sermon) told the other officials to tell Moser it was going to cost him a timeout if he reviewed the call and didn't see anything. Obviously his ego was involved and do you think he was about to admit he missed something after that comment?

As for the act itself, there was no reason for him to jump up with his knee in a basketball sense, and as we all know, intentional or unintentional, contact to the head is a flagrant.

So you fall in the camp that if a guy is diving for a loose ball and someone running up the court knees him in the head inadvertently then it's a flagrant foul? That's unintentional contact to the head.

 

[schoonerdriver]

So you fall in the camp that if a guy is diving for a loose ball and someone running up the court knees him in the head inadvertently then it's a flagrant foul? That's unintentional contact to the head.

I have seen us called for way too many flagrant calls when guys were getting way too close and as soon as an elbow moved the defender would flail about like he had been shot. At bare minimum, it was a common foul. I think it should be flagrant because the defender was out of control and I am not sure what basketball play he was trying to make but it was dangerous to say the least. Good thing Groves has a big, hard noggin.

Your analogy of a player running their head into another player's knee doesn't compute for me. In Groves case, he was going for the ball on the ground and then was met with the knee of a guy going the opposite way from the ball that's a foul 100% of the time.

 

[steverocks35]

I have seen us called for way too many flagrant calls when guys were getting way too close and as soon as an elbow moved the defender would flail about like he had been shot. At bare minimum, it was a common foul. I think it should be flagrant because the defender was out of control and I am not sure what basketball play he was trying to make but it was dangerous to say the least. Good thing Groves has a big, hard noggin.

Your analogy of a player running their head into another player's knee doesn't compute for me. In Groves case, he was going for the ball on the ground and then was met with the knee of a guy going the opposite way from the ball that's a foul 100% of the time.

It's exactly the same scenario. Honestly, I don't remember seeing a flagrant foul called this season. Granted I haven't watched a ton of college basketball other than our games. The one flagrant I remember from the past that I thought was really silly and egregious was called on Longar Longar after a rebound that he was protecting. I think against Knight's Texas Tech team? I'm sure some of you guys remember it better than I do.

 

[Max Power]

He hit Groves with the Jorge Masvidal flying knee and we are trying to act like that's not a foul? Are you just trying to be contrarian on purpose?

 

[jaymOU]

It's exactly the same scenario. Honestly, I don't remember seeing a flagrant foul called this season. Granted I haven't watched a ton of college basketball other than our games. The one flagrant I remember from the past that I thought was really silly and egregious was called on Longar Longar after a rebound that he was protecting. I think against Knight's Texas Tech team? I'm sure some of you guys remember it better than I do.

Steve - that is exactly the play I wanted to compare it to. Knew it was Longar x 2, but could not remember the game or the year. However, there have been several flagrant fouls called in the past couple of years in OU games I know. I believe there was one in Austin last year, which favored OU as well.

I am still sticking with the fact it was a common foul at least. Hard to understand how this contact goes uncalled. Especially given one of the points of emphasis this year is to stop the diving on people during loose ball situations. The baseline view is pretty obvious it is both a foul and excessive contact. Groves does grab his head immediately.

You made some good points. But Doug Sermon is as bad as John Higgins to me and Higgins already has his own thread.

 

[steverocks35]

He hit Groves with the Jorge Masvidal flying knee and we are trying to act like that's not a foul? Are you just trying to be contrarian on purpose?

So if a guy is diving for a loose ball and gets kneed in the head by someone running down the court is that a flagrant foul? It's unintentional contact to the head exactly like in Saturday's game.

I'm not trying to be contrarian but Mayer clearly jumped in the air not knowing that at that millisecond Groves was going to bend down. The officials ruled incidental contact that was not excessive. It could have gone both ways but I see their rationale for that decision.

 

[Sooner Season]

So you fall in the camp that if a guy is diving for a loose ball and someone running up the court knees him in the head inadvertently then it's a flagrant foul? That's unintentional contact to the head.

I fall into the camp of dealing with what actually happened instead of hypotheticals. Hypotheticals are usually a way of diverting the discussion.

 

[jpsam]

Using the "if a player dives into someone's elbow on purpose he can get a flagrant 1 called" argument is not really a reason to say Mayer shouldn't have been called. I suppose if a player really wanted to get clocked to try and get a flagrant they could try. Could also get a foul called on themselves.

The key is what is the rule:

"The NCAA's Playing Rules Oversight Panel adopted the "flagrant" term before the 2011-12 season for both men's and women's basketball. However, the NCAA's women's rules committee abandoned the term "flagrant", effective with the 2017–18 season, in favor of FIBA's "unsportsmanlike" and "disqualifying" terms. These fouls are counted as personal fouls and technical fouls.

A flagrant 1 foul (men's) or unsportsmanlike foul (women's) involves excessive or severe contact during a live ball, including especially when a player "swings an elbow and makes illegal, non-excessive contact with an opponent above the shoulders". This offense includes the former "intentional foul" of fouling an opposing player to prevent an easy breakaway score. In women's basketball only, the unsportsmanlike foul also includes contact dead-ball technical fouls. The penalty for a flagrant 1 or unsportsmanlike foul is two free throws and a throw-in for the opposing team at the out-of-bounds spot nearest the foul."


Intent doesn't matter. Typically getting hit in the head - nearly regardless of circumstance - carries a Flagrant 1 at minimum. Should have been called. Baffling that it wasn't. Also effectively ended any chance the Sooners had by killing their momentum and gifting Baylor 4 free throws (b/c Harkless had to foul to stop the action).

 

[Seymore Cox]

Think about it though. Groves bent down just as Mayer jumped. There is no way that Mayer could have known Groves was going to bend down at that millisecond. Obviously Groves wasn't hurt because he was able to jump up and argue the non-call vigorously. So let's say you are diving for a loose ball just as someone is running up the court and you dive into their knee. Should that be a flagrant foul too? If it should be then you could get that call any time by bending into someone's elbow as they turn with the ball or into their knee as they run.

It was incidental contact and the refs ruled that it was not excessive, probably because Groves was able to jump up and get in their faces. Maybe he gets the call if he rolls around on the court holding his face like a soccer player.

Groves has to be tougher.

 

[mict085]

Baylor should be penalized for all the raping and murdering. It should’ve been a foul, flagrant 1.

 

[pnkranger]

Groves has to be tougher.

Can't tell if serious.

In general, I can get behind that. In the context of this play, the dude got kneed square in the face by a 6'9", 225 lb division 1 athlete. I was shocked he popped up the way he did.

 

[allday92]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/JaymOU13/status/1485012814460768258?s=20[/TWEET]

I found a tweet that had the actual replay of the hit. At the bare minimum this should have been a common foul, and there is enough justification for a flagrant foul 1.

From the video, Mayer jumps to block Grove's is shot, but he's jumping recklessly.

This clip from youtube has the full play - https://youtu.be/gne5Lnhv9ew?t=869.

Goldwire throws an inaccurate pass, which causes Groves to not catch it cleanly, and he has to bend/turn to gather the ball. As soon as Mayer saw the pass, he crashed in to help, and pre-determined he was going for the block.
If Groves catches it cleanly, it's still a foul cause Mayer was jumping in no man's land. In this scenario, Grove's feels him, and just holds on to the ball to draw the foul.

It's at least a common foul because he's jumping into Groves. Enough justification for a flagrant 1 cause a knee to the head is excessive.

 

[Eielson]

If you take a knee to the head and you immediately are up and moving around normally then you weren’t hit very hard.

I can't fathom how a cognitively intact person could watch a replay of that play and say he wasn't hit very hard. My guess would be a personality disorder.

 

[big-hOUnd]

I feel like the conference could care less about anything OU or UT has to complain about from now on, in any sport. I hope I’m wrong.