Twisting Knobs and Pulling Levers

[daqman]

Your point was to make a backhanded slight to this team by comparing it to an Elite 8 team with tons of experience. How do you know this team is just as talented? Are you just talking about raw athleticism? Experience increases your talent level (strength, athleticism, IQ, shooting, defense), so I think the word you are looking for is potential.

No, the word is talent. None of the 2003 players played in the NBA. None of the current players will play in the NBA. There isn't one tangible metric you can point to that will prove the 2003 team was more talented than the current team.

In fact, Harmon is a top 50 recruit. Were there any higher rated players on the 2003 team? If not, I could argue this team is more talented than 2003.

 

[WaymanFan]

No, the word is talent. None of the 2003 players played in the NBA. None of the current players will play in the NBA. There isn't one tangible metric you can point to that will prove the 2003 team was more talented than the current team.

In fact, Harmon is a top 50 recruit. Were there any higher rated players on the 2003 team? If not, I could argue this team is more talented than 2003.

Hollis was definitely a top-50 recruit. I would also say that a Naismith finalist and 1st team All-American would classify as someone with talent. Hollis Price was one of the 10 best players in school history. There is no one on this year’s team u can compare with him. Take him out of the mix, and yes, the offensive talent level difference is minimal (though the 2003 defense was better). The 2003 team also struggled offensively when Hollis was not in the game. Once Ebi Ere went into a funk halfway thru the season, it was a battle to score points for sure.

All that said, the talent level of the 2003 team was definitely better. Ere and Quannas White were light years better than any OU JUCO player this past decade.

 

[daqman]

Hollis was definitely a top-50 recruit. I would also say that a Naismith finalist and 1st team All-American would classify as someone with talent. Hollis Price was one of the 10 best players in school history. There is no one on this year’s team u can compare with him. Take him out of the mix, and yes, the offensive talent level difference is minimal (though the 2003 defense was better). The 2003 team also struggled offensively when Hollis was not in the game. Once Ebi Ere went into a funk halfway thru the season, it was a battle to score points for sure.

All that said, the talent level of the 2003 team was definitely better. Ere and Quannas White were light years better than any OU JUCO player this past decade.

I don't remember Hollis being top 50 but I'm sure the recruitniks around here with a better memory than mine can verify that.
The talent difference between Ere and Williams is minimal.

Obviously a Naismith finalist has "some talent". But my point is you can take "some talent", some good coaching, some toughness, some motivation and be a very good college player. He didn't play in the NBA so his talent level was just good enough for college.

According to the links below, Hollis was #53 harmon #44.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/recruit_rankings_1999.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/recruit_rankings_2019.html

 

[BCSooners]

I don't remember Hollis being top 50 but I'm sure the recruitniks around here with a better memory than mine can verify that.
The talent difference between Ere and Williams is minimal.

Obviously a Naismith finalist has "some talent". But my point is you can take "some talent", some good coaching, some toughness, some motivation and be a very good college player. He didn't play in the NBA so his talent level was just good enough for college.

According to the links below, Hollis was #53 harmon #44.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/recruit_rankings_1999.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/recruit_rankings_2019.html

Yeah there’s no point in arguing anymore with you.

 

[Sooner04]

The talent difference between Ere and Williams is minimal.

 

[thebigabd]

Saying Ere and Williams are similar is beyond absurd. Ere averaged 15 per game on championship level teams. Williams is going through a transition, where Ere was immediately ready to play.

He had 16/6 in his first game against a championship caliber Michigan State team.. Had 29/6 against Arkansas.. Had 19/7 against a Maryland team that I believe won the NCAA Tournament that year... Had 24/9 against UCONN... had 25 and 8 in his first Big 12 game.

It's just not even comparable... big numbers on a championship contender.

The talent difference between then and now is staggering... and what is funny about that is, Kelvin got ripped for being a bad recruiter or only recruiting to his "system"...

 

[steverocks35]

Saying Ere and Williams are similar is beyond absurd. Ere averaged 15 per game on championship level teams. Williams is going through a transition, where Ere was immediately ready to play.

He had 16/6 in his first game against a championship caliber Michigan State team.. Had 29/6 against Arkansas.. Had 19/7 against a Maryland team that I believe won the NCAA Tournament that year... Had 24/9 against UCONN... had 25 and 8 in his first Big 12 game.

It's just not even comparable... big numbers on a championship contender.

The talent difference between then and now is staggering... and what is funny about that is, Kelvin got ripped for being a bad recruiter or only recruiting to his "system"...

Speaking of differences in talent level. ESPNU showed a "before they were pros" game a couple of days ago. It was the 2008 OU/Davidson game.

Obviously, any team that had the Griffin brothers was going to be super talented, but that team also had Willie Warren, Austin Johnson, Tony Crocker in the starting lineup and Cade Davis, Ryan Wright, and Omar Leary coming off the bench. The talent difference between now and then was stark but what really got my attention was the ball and player movement. The ball never stopped and the offense was in constant motion. A lot of teams would have just dumped the ball into Blake and got out of the way but that offense flowed. It's such a contrast it just jumps out at you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRmhAdR5Ya0

 

[oudna]

that team also had Austin Johnson, Tony Crocker in the starting lineup and Cade Davis, Ryan Wright, and Omar Leary coming off the bench. The talent difference between now and then was stark but what really got my attention was the ball and player movement. The ball never stopped and the offense was in constant motion. A lot of teams would have just dumped the ball into Blake and got out of the way but that offense flowed. It's such a contrast it just jumps out at you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRmhAdR5Ya0

Who?

 

[WaymanFan]

I don't remember Hollis being top 50 but I'm sure the recruitniks around here with a better memory than mine can verify that.
The talent difference between Ere and Williams is minimal.

Obviously a Naismith finalist has "some talent". But my point is you can take "some talent", some good coaching, some toughness, some motivation and be a very good college player. He didn't play in the NBA so his talent level was just good enough for college.

According to the links below, Hollis was #53 harmon #44.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/recruit_rankings_1999.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/recruit_rankings_2019.html

You're looking at one recruiting ranking. Furthermore, you cannot compare Hollis as a senior to Harmon as a freshman, so let's put an end to that. As others have correctly pointed out, the difference between Ere and Williams was far from "minimal". Ere went into a second half of the season funk his senior year, no question about it. I was at the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 games in 2003, and we made it to the Elite 8 only because Ere had a big game against Butler. Afterwards, Kelvin said to him: "Welcome back to OU basketball". Unfortunately, he didn't contribute much in the Elite 8 game, and we never had a chance against Syracuse. Still, Williams has a long way to go before he can be fairly mentioned in the same sentence as Ere.

 

[SKSooner]

I think a huge problem we have is a lack of identity. I'm not sure I know how we want to win a game or what we're going to hang our hat on. College basketball is very competitive. Everybody has good players. What can you rely on to separate yourself game in and game out from the other team? I just don't know what that is with OU basketball right now.

You can be a mediocre rebounding team if you make your shots. But when you don't make a lot of shots (and we typically don't against better competition), you need to rebound. And we don't do that well at all. We are the worst offensive rebounding team I've ever seen. And that's not an exaggeration.

For us to win games, we're going to have to shoot the ball well because I'm not sure what we do anything very consistently. So we're going to have to hope we shoot well consistently, and that's a lot to ask.

 

[thebigabd]

Steps to fixing OU basketball.

1.) Lon Kruger retires/fired.
2.) Hire Kyle Keller from Stephen F. Austin. Coached under Eddie Sutton, Bill Self, and Billy Kennedy.
3.) Has recruited this part of the country for his entire career at Oklahoma State, Kansas, Texas A&M. He is from Dallas. 25 years of recruiting this area.
4.) Was also a junior college head coach in Texas, and understands the area juco recruiting scene.

They are off to a 10-2 start this year, including a win over Duke in Cameron Indoor.

He signed Cameron Johnson out of Tyler Junior College in Texas... Averaging 13 points and 4 rebounds per game off the bat. Including 16 points and 4 rebounds against Duke.

He signed Gavin Kensmil out of Navarro Junior College in Texas.. Averaging 13 points and 8 rebounds per game off the bat. Including 15 points and 7 rebounds over against.

You know who can't score 15 and 7 against Duke this year in Cameron Indoor? Ricky Issanza, Anyang Garang, Corbin Merritt, Kur Kuath, and Victor Iwuakor. 41% of the roster is physically incapable of doing that. Defend that.

Keller will be able to get good high school talent, and also plug OU back into the juco recruiting scene when necessary. He has been apart of big time winning at OSU, Kansas, and A&M.

This is exactly the kind of guy who could kill it at OU.

 

[Sooner04]

You know who can't score 15 and 7 against Duke this year in Cameron Indoor? Ricky Issanza, Anyang Garang, Corbin Merritt, Kur Kuath, and Victor Iwuakor. 41% of the roster is physically incapable of doing that.

That's a good line.

And a sobering one.

 

[BCSooners]

Steps to fixing OU basketball.

1.) Lon Kruger retires/fired.
2.) Hire Kyle Keller from Stephen F. Austin. Coached under Eddie Sutton, Bill Self, and Billy Kennedy.
3.) Has recruited this part of the country for his entire career at Oklahoma State, Kansas, Texas A&M. He is from Dallas. 25 years of recruiting this area.
4.) Was also a junior college head coach in Texas, and understands the area juco recruiting scene.

They are off to a 10-2 start this year, including a win over Duke in Cameron Indoor.

He signed Cameron Johnson out of Tyler Junior College in Texas... Averaging 13 points and 4 rebounds per game off the bat. Including 16 points and 4 rebounds against Duke.

He signed Gavin Kensmil out of Navarro Junior College in Texas.. Averaging 13 points and 8 rebounds per game off the bat. Including 15 points and 7 rebounds over against.

You know who can't score 15 and 7 against Duke this year in Cameron Indoor? Ricky Issanza, Anyang Garang, Corbin Merritt, Kur Kuath, and Victor Iwuakor. 41% of the roster is physically incapable of doing that. Defend that.

Keller will be able to get good high school talent, and also plug OU back into the juco recruiting scene when necessary. He has been apart of big time winning at OSU, Kansas, and A&M.

This is exactly the kind of guy who could kill it at OU.

Last year he went 14-16 after coming off a 28-7 season, so he didn’t capitalize off a good season. He’s in a terrible conference & hasn’t won it. Also he’s an OSU alum. Oh but he has ties to Juco.

I’d suggest Alec Jans of NMSU, and that would also humor your Juco background.

I’d like to see Lon finish out this year & next before I completely write him off. Let him develop his biggest class. Also it’s a good time in NCAAB to have a squeaky clean coach.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Last year he went 14-16 after coming off a 28-7 season, so he didn’t capitalize off a good season. He’s in a terrible conference & hasn’t won it. Also he’s an OSU alum. Oh but he has ties to Juco.

And he won ONE big game, don't forget that! Also, l live near a local JUCO, so I think that should have me in the running. And I know some people who attended a junior college, so now that I think about it, I should be a lock for the non-existent job opening.

 

[sperry]

JUCOs are awful. Objectively awful.

 

[BCSooners]

He signed Cameron Johnson out of Tyler Junior College in Texas... Averaging 13 points and 4 rebounds per game off the bat. Including 16 points and 4 rebounds against Duke.

He signed Gavin Kensmil out of Navarro Junior College in Texas.. Averaging 13 points and 8 rebounds per game off the bat. Including 15 points and 7 rebounds over against.

You know who can't score 15 and 7 against Duke this year in Cameron Indoor? Ricky Issanza, Anyang Garang, Corbin Merritt, Kur Kuath, and Victor Iwuakor. 41% of the roster is physically incapable of doing that. Defend that.
OU.

Im pretty sure half this board could get 2 points & 1 rebound in a loss to Rutgers, which is what Johnson did. How about 4pts & 4 turnovers in a loss to Alabama, which is what Kensmil did. They also aren’t freshmen, a little different when you can cherry pick.

 

[hoopsaustin]

Last year he went 14-16 after coming off a 28-7 season, so he didn’t capitalize off a good season. He’s in a terrible conference & hasn’t won it. Also he’s an OSU alum. Oh but he has ties to Juco.

I’d suggest Alec Jans of NMSU, and that would also humor your Juco background.

I’d like to see Lon finish out this year & next before I completely write him off. Let him develop his biggest class. Also it’s a good time in NCAAB to have a squeaky clean coach.

I about died laughing

 

[WTSooner]

We need to find somebody like Chris Beard. He'd have been a really good fit for us. Somebody that can recruit to their system, plays tough on both sides of the ball, and somebody that can win without top end talent.

 

[Eielson]

You know who can't score 15 and 7 against Duke this year in Cameron Indoor? Ricky Issanza, Anyang Garang, Corbin Merritt, Kur Kuath, and Victor Iwuakor. 41% of the roster is physically incapable of doing that. Defend that.

Keep Vic out of that sentence.

 

[Eielson]

We need to find somebody like Chris Beard.

Or Jay Wright.