Well, the team obviously has talent issues

[AdaSooner]

If that is what you think, what argueing about? We are in about 90% agreement.

I gave it to you straight, without my usual sugar coating to keep everyone happy. See, we're closer than you thought.

Oh, and an after thought. About that 10%. Me, I'm an OU Basketball fan. It was my youngest daughter that was the cheerleader at OU. Her job was to support the team and players come hell or high water. I tend to be alittle critical from time to time in spots.

I can live with the 10%, as long as it's a fair and honest appraisal of everyone on the team.

 

[WTSooner]

Honest answer. Firstly, and above everything else. We mostly disagree because I think that you believe that average ppg is a definative measure of a players worth or value to a team. I think that is just one metric. No more or less important than defense or transition or the ability to beat defenders off the dribble, or create shots or rebound.

I think Pledger is a fine scoring option. I also think that his shortcomings in other areas devalues him. When we have a point guard that averages 4.5 ppg insted of 10, that devalues him. But, he does virtually every other thing that one needs a point guard to do pretty well. I think his NET contribution is quite positive. Higher than Pledger's. You disagree. It is hard to prove either way. Same with Osby. He is and undersized #4 stuck down in the paint coming off a year layoff. And he is still averaging nearly a double double. That is pretty good. Pledger could average 30 a game and we still couldn't beat a good team without Osby doing his job well.

Pledger is easily our best scoring option. And opposing coaches will attempt to take that away from us. When they get that done, it is bad news. But, WT, Pledger isn't being picked on. That is what every coach tries to do with every opponents best scoring option. It seems that top 40 types teams generally have the kind of players that can get him. The vast majority of teams on our schedule don't have that kind of player and Pledger lights them up. He lights them up with the same low scoring Grooms standing right there beside him.

When I say OU needs better players. That would translate into having a best scoring option that could get his against all but say a top 20 team type of talent. As indicated by recent performance and last years record, all of the players on the roster have flaws that can be exploited by opposing coaches. None of the players are as bad as the things they do poorly. And none of them are as good as the things they do well. They all have a NET worth. From that perspective, it is hard for me to assign a value to Pledger that is as high or any higher than Grooms,Osby, or Fitz for that matter. Cam, well that is another story.

And you are right. OU isn't that far off. They need another ball handler pretty bad. But, most importantly, they need another scoring option. And it doesn't really need to be the point guard. Pledger as the lone threat just exposes us to the liability of getting beat by more teams.

Amath is probably the solution next season. That along with the freshman. I'm not buying into the one and done to the NBA hype. But, the kid can score. Pledger will have an easier time of it when he is a scoring option insted of the scoring option. And the team will be better for it.

Thanks for the answer. I don't disagree with your idea that ppg isn't the best measure of "best players". But shooting percentage AND ppg tells a lot about offensive efficiency, something Pledger has been pretty good at all season.

And I think you are selling Pledger short on the other aspects of the game. He is the 3rd leading rebounder on the team, despite playing nearly all his minutes at SG. He is 3rd on the team in assists per game. He leads the team in steals per game. And going back to offensive efficiency, he has the highest shooting percentages for FG's, 3 pointers, and FT's on the team.

I know you like to bag on his defense, and last year I would have agreed with you 100%, but I think his reputation is causing you to see things that aren't there. Because I watch the games, and I don't see Pledger getting beat very often. I see Grooms and especially Cam getting beat MUCH more often. Neal gets beat b/c he cannot guard true guards. Osby got beat BADLY against Mizzou, b/c he was on the smaller players. I'm not saying Pledger doesn't get beat, but I actually think he has done a TREMENDOUS job of keeping his man in front of him this year. One of us is clearly wrong on this, but like you said, that's a tough thing to "prove".

As for Osby being "undersized" and "stuck" down in the post, I disagree again. Osby (6'8, 237lbs) compares quite well to guys like Taj Gray (6'9, 238lbs), Johnnie Gilbert (6'8, 228lbs), and even Ace (6'8, 250lbs). Surely after watching this many games of Osby, you wouldn't want him starting at the 3 spot, would you?

So basically I agree with you in that a lot goes in to evaluating how good/bad a player has been, but it sounds like we disagree on the assessment of those things too, as they apply to this OU team. We can nitpick the little things all we want, but for a team that has trouble scoring against good teams, Pledger and Fitz have still been our best scoring options in those games.

 

[DenverSooner]

OU does have a slight problem with talent. They could reallly use a star player. OU also has an issue with lacking a bench. Honore, Washington, Arent, Blair and Neal are good guys but as a group they are not one of the better benches in the Big XII. This will change next year. OU will have Blair, Neal, Hield, Hornbeak, Henry and one of Fitz, Osby or M'Baye coming off the bench (with the last guy playing a lot of minutes). If Hield or Honrbeak can truly contribute at a Big XII level as a freshman, OU will actually have a good bench next year. I look for a bit of step backwards after next season but hope to see OU back to being a consistent top 4 team in the Big XII conference after that.

 

[garyeb2]

Thanks for the answer. I don't disagree with your idea that ppg isn't the best measure of "best players". But shooting percentage AND ppg tells a lot about offensive efficiency, something Pledger has been pretty good at all season.

And I think you are selling Pledger short on the other aspects of the game. He is the 3rd leading rebounder on the team, despite playing nearly all his minutes at SG. He is 3rd on the team in assists per game. He leads the team in steals per game. And going back to offensive efficiency, he has the highest shooting percentages for FG's, 3 pointers, and FT's on the team.

I know you like to bag on his defense, and last year I would have agreed with you 100%, but I think his reputation is causing you to see things that aren't there. Because I watch the games, and I don't see Pledger getting beat very often. I see Grooms and especially Cam getting beat MUCH more often. Neal gets beat b/c he cannot guard true guards. Osby got beat BADLY against Mizzou, b/c he was on the smaller players. I'm not saying Pledger doesn't get beat, but I actually think he has done a TREMENDOUS job of keeping his man in front of him this year. One of us is clearly wrong on this, but like you said, that's a tough thing to "prove".

As for Osby being "undersized" and "stuck" down in the post, I disagree again. Osby (6'8, 237lbs) compares quite well to guys like Taj Gray (6'9, 238lbs), Johnnie Gilbert (6'8, 228lbs), and even Ace (6'8, 250lbs). Surely after watching this many games of Osby, you wouldn't want him starting at the 3 spot, would you?

So basically I agree with you in that a lot goes in to evaluating how good/bad a player has been, but it sounds like we disagree on the assessment of those things too, as they apply to this OU team. We can nitpick the little things all we want, but for a team that has trouble scoring against good teams, Pledger and Fitz have still been our best scoring options in those games.

Osby has long arms and good elevation. So, he probably plays taller than he is. But, he isn't a hair over 6'6". As for the rest of it, how about another time. I'm out of air on this one and I have to get to Walmart.

 

[Dem Coltz]

Need pics.

I respect this.

 

[euphguy]

The real problem is that 1) people hate to admit when they're wrong; and 2) put jump too hastily to decisions after only three games in conference play. ANYTHING could happen, seriously.