"It shall be in the frontcourt when neither the ball nor the player is touching the
backcourt."
The ball was in the air, thus not touching the backcourt, and Buddy had both feet in the frontcourt.
You can still see the replay on ESPN.com
FT discrepancy and 3 calls I don't understand
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"It shall be in the frontcourt when neither the ball nor the player is touching the
backcourt."
The ball was in the air, thus not touching the backcourt, and Buddy had both feet in the frontcourt.
You can still see the replay on ESPN.com
Not sure why you think it is irrelevant. The scenario is somewhat similar and it proves the ball doesn't technically have to touch the frontcourt to be deemed in the frontcourt which is exactly what is in question here.
DenverSooner
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except the highlighter part of the rule (article 3) starts by saying: a live ball is in the frontcourt or backcourt of the team in control as follows. It has no application until a team is in control. To read it otherwise ignores the plain meaning of the words used and that is why Jay Bilas said I don't think he established possession (or something like that). You want to sue 3a to say the second Buddy touches the ball it is in the front court. Yet his touch at best converted it to a dribble and 3c should control.
Interesting that people all see this so differently.
Except everything I read tells me the ball is considered to be in the frontcourt once it touches a player that has frontcourt status. Oh and if I can't use 3a then you can't use 3c.
If Buddy touching it doesn't establish the ball in the frontcourt then a team could bat the ball back and forth between players on either side of the line without violation. Another point would be that the 10 second count stops once a player in the front court touches the ball not once it crosses the line.
If Buddy touching it doesn't establish the ball in the frontcourt then a team could bat the ball back and forth between players on either side of the line without violation. Another point would be that the 10 second count stops once a player in the front court touches the ball not once it crosses the line.
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Where? I went looking and can't find it. Would love to see it.
SoonerBounce13
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i think the issue comes in that we didn't have possession. it was a loose ball.
Not sure that it matters at least from reading the rule book. The ball always has a status no matter of the possession, except for a few exemptions like the opening tip, inbounding the ball, and off a shot attempt. The ball status changes from backcourt to frontcourt when Buddy touches it while being established in the front court.
FWIW I asked a handful of basketball coaches and officials and they all said it was a violation.
It's important to remember the violation wasn't Buddy touching the ball while being established in the froncourt. It was when he went into the backcourt with the ball after touching it from the frontcourt.
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WTSooner
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Yep.
There is a simply answer here. The ref was confused which way OU was going. He thought Cousins was in the front court. When Buddy reaches from the true front court and touches the ball, the ref thought Buddy was reaching over the half court line from the back court to front court. Thus, he thought there was a violation.
He couldn't undue his mistake so he just let it go.
He couldn't undue his mistake so he just let it go.
steverocks35
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According to the rule, Buddy reaching back and tapping the ball doesn't establish the ball in the frontcourt. Since the ball was never established in the frontcourt a backcourt violation did not occur, unless you are arguing that Buddy slapping at the ball established possession, which seems pretty far-fetched. Seems pretty simple to me. Also the link I posted earlier in the thread, from an article by a supervisor of officials, states that if a backcourt is questionable then a backcourt probably didn't occur.
DenverSooner
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The rule does not come close to saying the ball always has a status.
What it does talk about is the team in control and player in control and it does that numerous times.
Those of you that are saying it is a violation are basing it on the fact that a guy that jumps in the air from the front court to the back court and catches the ball in the process has committed a violation but you are ignoring that the team had possession when that occurred.
You are correct. It cannot be a backcourt violation because, according to the rules, the ball was never in the frontcourt. Therefore, you cannot have a backcourt violation. Jay Bilas tried to say that but they never went back and revisited it.
The ball never entered the frontcourt. You could bring the ball up from the backcourt and have both feet in the frontcourt and as long as you keep dribbling the ball in the backcourt you have not entered the frontcourt yet. We have all probably seen that happen during a press and the refs are usually keen on that but I just think he got confused in this case because you rarely see this type of play. Of course, you are still subject to the 10-second rule until both you and the ball are considered to be in the frontcourt.
I am not concerned about the play because there are always plenty of missed calls against both teams. We still came back and had a good look to win the game. I am sure I could also find several plays they missed where we were the beneficiary. I thought the refs did a pretty good job in that game.
Section 23. Location of a Player
Art. 1. The location of a player (or nonplayer) is determined as being:
a Whereheistouchingthefloor,asfarasbeinginboundsoroutofbounds b In the frontcourt or backcourt
c Outside the three-point line with at least one foot in contact with the playing floor behind the line before the release of the try and the other foot not contacting the line or the playing floor in front of the line
Art. 2. When a player is in the air from a leap (except during a throw-in) or when a defensive player intercepts a ball while in the air, the player’s status with reference to these two situations shall be the same as at the time the player was last in contact with the floor or an extension of the floor, such as a bleacher
Art. 3. When the ball touches an official or a player who is on the playing court, play shall continue as if the ball touched the floor at that individual’s location
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Art. 1. The location of a player (or nonplayer) is determined as being:
a Whereheistouchingthefloor,asfarasbeinginboundsoroutofbounds b In the frontcourt or backcourt
c Outside the three-point line with at least one foot in contact with the playing floor behind the line before the release of the try and the other foot not contacting the line or the playing floor in front of the line
Art. 2. When a player is in the air from a leap (except during a throw-in) or when a defensive player intercepts a ball while in the air, the player’s status with reference to these two situations shall be the same as at the time the player was last in contact with the floor or an extension of the floor, such as a bleacher
Art. 3. When the ball touches an official or a player who is on the playing court, play shall continue as if the ball touched the floor at that individual’s location
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This is correct.
chuckb
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"Art. 4. A player shall not be the first to touch the ball in his back court (with any part of his body, voluntarily or involuntarily) when the ball came from the front court while that player’s team was in team control and that player or his teammate was the last to touch the ball before it went into the back court"
From the NCAA rule book. If an offensive player is the last to touch the ball in the front court, even if the ball was knocked away by a defender, and is the first to touch it in the back court, it's a violation.
Both sides raise good points. I am not sure now. It probably depends on definitions of control, passing vs dribbling, loose balls, etc. I suspect there is a ref forum somewhere. It would be interesting to submit it and see what they say. I'm not sure that would work though because there would probably be disagreement on what was submitted. 
WTSooner
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I don't care about how the rule reads, but after watching the replay last night (albeit a grainy version), here is my conclusion:
Buddy left his feet from his frontcourt, and possessed the ball while in the air. By definition, he then has possession in the frontcourt, because that is where HE last had position. He isn't in the backcourt until he lands there. While in the air he came to possess the ball, thus putting the ball in the frontcourt, until he landed, which then put Buddy and the ball in the backcourt. That is over and back. Has been since I played in middle school.
The only question I have at this point, is did Buddy touch the ball before landing in the backcourt. The version I saw last night wasn't clean enough for me to say. If not, it was the wrong call, but I don't think that is what most are arguing in this thread.
That is the way that rule has been "called" for as long as I can remember.
Buddy left his feet from his frontcourt, and possessed the ball while in the air. By definition, he then has possession in the frontcourt, because that is where HE last had position. He isn't in the backcourt until he lands there. While in the air he came to possess the ball, thus putting the ball in the frontcourt, until he landed, which then put Buddy and the ball in the backcourt. That is over and back. Has been since I played in middle school.
The only question I have at this point, is did Buddy touch the ball before landing in the backcourt. The version I saw last night wasn't clean enough for me to say. If not, it was the wrong call, but I don't think that is what most are arguing in this thread.
That is the way that rule has been "called" for as long as I can remember.
In the NCAA rule book it says "Those seeking interpretations or clarifications of the NCAA Men’s Basketball Rules may contact Art Hyland, NCAA Men’s Basketball Secretary-Rules Editor" so I'm sending this e-mail to him. I will let you know what, if any, response I receive back.
There was a call made in the OU/Iowa State game on 1/18 in the last minute of the first half that has spurred a lot of conversation about the over and back rule. Would you please help us to determine if the correct call was made and why?
In this scenario A1 takes a shot and the long rebound is saved back in bounds near the division line by B1 who throws it off the leg of A2. The carom off the leg of A2 is then touched by B2 who has both feet in his frontcourt. This touch turns into a dribble where B2 then crosses over the division line and continues the dribble. The official then blows his whistle and calls a backcourt violation. The ball never actually crosses over the division line. Was the correct call made and why?
Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
There was a call made in the OU/Iowa State game on 1/18 in the last minute of the first half that has spurred a lot of conversation about the over and back rule. Would you please help us to determine if the correct call was made and why?
In this scenario A1 takes a shot and the long rebound is saved back in bounds near the division line by B1 who throws it off the leg of A2. The carom off the leg of A2 is then touched by B2 who has both feet in his frontcourt. This touch turns into a dribble where B2 then crosses over the division line and continues the dribble. The official then blows his whistle and calls a backcourt violation. The ball never actually crosses over the division line. Was the correct call made and why?
Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
I just received a phone call from Art Hyland. He asked some questions about the scenario about where everyone was on the court and then told me he would check out the video and reply back via email so that I can share it with the board.
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