FT discrepancy and 3 calls I don't understand

perryj74 said:
According to the official he does possess it with the dribble and I'm inclined to agree with him. You don't have to catch a ball to possess it.
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OK, if he possessed it by dribbling, then both feet and ball must cross mid court. That didn't happen. I am looking forward to watching the replay when I get home.
 
chuckb said:
The ball, if it's controlled by a team, has the status (backcourt or frontcourt) of the last person to touch it. That was Hield and, if I remember the play correctly, he had frontcourt status. He had established himself in the frontcourt. Then he touched the ball before re-establishing himself in the backcourt. If this was a loose ball, it's irrelevant and can't be a backcourt violation. The issue, then, is "was OU in control of the ball?" I just don't remember the play well enough to say but if the refs determined that Hield's touch was a controlled dribble, it's a backcourt violation. If Cousins controlled the ball prior to Hield's touch, it's a backcourt violation. If neither of those is true, it's not.
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Cousins possessing it before throwing it off an ISU player's leg is irrelevant. The ball was loose when Hield touched it. In the article I posted earlier it was explained that the rule is based on the position of the ball in that situation. The ball had not crossed halfcourt therefore it was not a backcourt violation.
 
DenverSooner said:
OK, if he possessed it by dribbling, then both feet and ball must cross mid court. That didn't happen. I am looking forward to watching the replay when I get home.
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I watched the play several times. Hield tapped the ball while he was in the frontcourt but the ball never crossed the midcourt line. Then Hield retreated to the backcourt to possess the ball. It's a tough call but based on everything I've read today it's NOT a violation.
 
chuckb said:
The ball, if it's controlled by a team, has the status (backcourt or frontcourt) of the last person to touch it. That was Hield and, if I remember the play correctly, he had frontcourt status. He had established himself in the frontcourt. Then he touched the ball before re-establishing himself in the backcourt. If this was a loose ball, it's irrelevant and can't be a backcourt violation. The issue, then, is "was OU in control of the ball?" I just don't remember the play well enough to say but if the refs determined that Hield's touch was a controlled dribble, it's a backcourt violation. If Cousins controlled the ball prior to Hield's touch, it's a backcourt violation. If neither of those is true, it's not.
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By established do you mean both feet? I'm not sure both feet applies in this case but I could certainly be wrong
 
chuckb said:
The ball, if it's controlled by a team, has the status (backcourt or frontcourt) of the last person to touch it. That was Hield and, if I remember the play correctly, he had frontcourt status. He had established himself in the frontcourt. Then he touched the ball before re-establishing himself in the backcourt. If this was a loose ball, it's irrelevant and can't be a backcourt violation. The issue, then, is "was OU in control of the ball?" I just don't remember the play well enough to say but if the refs determined that Hield's touch was a controlled dribble, it's a backcourt violation. If Cousins controlled the ball prior to Hield's touch, it's a backcourt violation. If neither of those is true, it's not.
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If possession is established by Hield dribbling, how can the ball become in the front court when the rule says a player dribbling does not establish front court until the ball and both feet cross mid court?
 
DenverSooner said:
If possession is established by Hield dribbling, how can the ball become in the front court when the rule says a player dribbling does not establish front court until the ball and both feet cross mid court?
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Hield, I think, had both feet in the frontcourt. He was, therefore, established as a frontcourt player. I don't remember the play perfectly, but I think he came back to get the ball and then touched it (I don't know/remember if this was a dribble or a tap but it matters if the refs determine he "controlled" it) before establishing both feet in the backcourt. If this was a "dribble" in the eyes of the refs, it's a backcourt violation because the ball now has frontcourt status when he controls, or dribbles, it. It makes no difference if it's actually crossed the vertical plane of the mid court line.

I don't remember the play well enough to say whether that was a dribble or not but I can only say that if it was, it's a violation. Moreover, if Cousins controlled it and passed it to Hield, even if it was deflected by an Iowa St player, it's still a backcourt violation.

This is basically the same thing as...say Cousins is dribbling the ball in the frontcourt and Morris knocks the ball away. They're scrambling for the ball and Cousins gets to it 1st, touches the ball near the mid court line, but still in the frontcourt, and re-establishes control with the dribble in the backcourt. That's a backcourt violation because we controlled the ball in the frontcourt, were the last team to touch it in the frontcourt, and then were the 1st team to touch it in the backcourt. Even though the Iowa St guy knocked it away and it seems like a "loose ball", it's still a backcourt violation.

Thus, if either Cousins or Hield controlled the ball in the ref's opinion, it's a backcourt violation. Again, I'm not saying they did because I just don't remember it that well.

I'll add that Hield didn't dribble the ball across halfcourt. If he was dribbling the ball, he has to dribble in the frontcourt before it can be a violation. He was, maybe, receiving a pass. If so, it's a backcourt violation. Suppose Cousins throws a chest pass to Buddy who is established in the frontcourt. Buddy leaves his get to receive the pass and catches it before landing in the backcourt. That's a backcourt violation even if the ball never vertically crossed halfcourt. The key is, was the ball controlled by either Cousins or Hield. I'm not sure it was but, if it was, it's a violation.
 
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chuckb said:
This is basically the same thing as...say Cousins is dribbling the ball in the frontcourt and Morris knocks the ball away. They're scrambling for the ball and Cousins gets to it 1st, touches the ball near the mid court line, but still in the frontcourt, and re-establishes control with the dribble in the backcourt. That's a backcourt violation because we controlled the ball in the frontcourt, were the last team to touch it in the frontcourt, and then were the 1st team to touch it in the backcourt. Even though the Iowa St guy knocked it away and it seems like a "loose ball", it's still a backcourt violation.

T
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i would have to see the rule to believe this. You see a ball get knocked out into the backcourt all the time and the player that lost it goes and gets it
 
SoonerBounce13 said:
i would have to see the rule to believe this. You see a ball get knocked out into the backcourt all the time and the player that lost it goes and gets it
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if he's the last one to touch it, it's a backcourt violation, even if the defender, say, knocks it off of his leg.
 
It's not rocket science guys. It was the right call.
 
DenverSooner said:
Cousins did not have possession. It was not a pass. It was a loose ball.
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You need to go back and watch it again without your crimson glasses. When I watched it live I thought the official blew the call. Cousins with two hands on the ball throws it off the leg of an Iowa State player.

If memory serves me chuckb is, or used to be, an official?

I found this and thought it might help http://www.longislandbasketball.com/AskTheRef52.html

QUESTION - I thought I had a good understanding of "over and back" in high school basketball. Here's my confusion about a call I've seen made a few times. Offensive player, A-1, with ball in back court throws to teammate, A-2, who is completely in front court. A-2 jumps and, while in the air, catches the ball and lands completely in the back court. Whistle blows....violation! I wouldn't think this to be the case because neither the ball nor a player with the ball was ever in the front court. Am I missing something here?

ANSWER - Yes, you are missing the same thing a lot of people are missing. It's the BALL, not the person, that we are focused on when we talk about "over and back" (more correctly, "back court violations"). Both the player(s) and the BALL have a "status" at all times but to sort this play out, you need to be concerned about the BALL. When player A-1 held the ball in the back court, the BALL had "back court status." It continued to have that status until it was touched by A-2 (who had "front court status" because he came from the front court). Once that ball is caught, or touched, by A-2, the status of the ball becomes the same as that of the player.....thus, the BALL has "front court status." When A-2 subsequently lands in back court, his status is "back court" and it is A-2 that is "deemed to have caused the BALL to go into the back court." It isn't much different than the play above, is it?
 
I did watch it a few times. Cousins dives for the ball and saves it from going out of bounds. It hits an ISU player. Even if you say Cousins had possession, which is a stretch, it is a loose ball now. Nobody possess it. last team to touch it is ISU.

The rule is as follows:

Art. 4. A player shall not be the first to touch the ball in his backcourt (with any part of his body, voluntarily or involuntarily) when the ball came from the frontcourt while that player’s team was in team control and that player or his teammate was the last to touch the ball before it went into the backcourt�


The ball never made it to the front court. OU was not "team control" and ISU was the last team to touch the ball before Hield.

It is only a backcourt violation if Article 3 of the rule makes the ball in the front court when Hield touches the ball. Article 3 says:

Art. 3. A live ball is in the frontcourt or backcourt of the team in control as follows:
a� A ball that is in contact with a player or with the playing court shall be in the backcourt when either the ball or the player (either player when the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt� It shall be in the frontcourt when neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt�
b� A ball that is not in contact with a player or the playing court retains the same status as when it was last in contact with a player or the playing court�
c� During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball shall be in the frontcourt when both feet of the dribbler and the ball touch the playing court entirely in the front court�

Prior to Hield touching the ball, it is clearly in the backcourt. Someone must be in control for Article 3 to apply but no one was in control before Hield touches the ball. Read the first sentence of article 3. If you say Hield established control by immediately dribbling the ball then Article 3.c applies and he did not have the ball and both feet in the front court so the ball was in the back court.

You must have control of the ball in the front court to have an over and back. If Hield establishes control, it is during a dribble and part c of Article 3 controls. If he did not establish control with the first touch, no part of the rule was violated.
 
http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/BR17.pdf

Section 12. Backcourt
Art. 1. A team’s frontcourt shall consist of that part of the playing court
between its end line and the nearer edge of the division line, including its
basket and the inbounds part of its backboard.
Art. 2. A team’s backcourt consists of the rest of the playing court, including
its opponent’s basket and inbounds part of the backboard and the division
line, excluding the mathematical edge nearest the team’s basket.
Art. 3. A live ball is in the frontcourt or backcourt of the team in control as
follows:
a. A ball that is in contact with a player or with the playing court shall be
in the backcourt when either the ball or the player (either player when
the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt. It shall
be in the frontcourt when neither the ball nor the player is touching the
backcourt.
b. A ball that is not in contact with a player or the playing court retains
the same status as when it was last in contact with a player or the
playing court.
c. During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball shall be in the
frontcourt when both feet of the dribbler and the ball touch the playing
court entirely in the frontcourt.
Art. 4. A player shall not be the first to touch the ball in his backcourt (with
any part of his body, voluntarily or involuntarily) when the ball came from
the frontcourt while that player’s team was in team control and that player or
his teammate was the last to touch the ball before it went into the backcourt.
Art. 5. A pass in the frontcourt that is deflected by a defensive player so that
the ball goes into the Backcourt may be recovered by either team.
Art. 6. Regardless of where the throw-in spot is located, the throw-in team
may cause the ball to go into the backcourt before player control has been
established by the throw-in team on the playing court.
Art. 7. After the throw-in ends, an inbounds player in the frontcourt, who is
not in control of the ball, may cause the ball to go into the backcourt.
Art. 8. A player who is the first to secure control of the ball in the frontcourt
after a jump ball or a throw-in while both feet are off the playing court
shall not be permitted to cause the ball to go into the backcourt, except as
permitted in Rule 9-12.10.
86 rule 9 / Violationsand Penalties
Art. 9. A defensive player shall be permitted to secure control of the ball
while both feet are off the playing court and land with one or both feet in the
Backcourt. It makes no difference if the first foot down was in the frontcourt
or backcourt.
Art. 10. After a jump ball or during a throw-in, the player in his frontcourt,
who makes the initial touch on the ball while both feet are off the playing
court, may be the first to secure control of the ball and land with one or both
feet in the backcourt. It makes no difference if the first foot down was in the
frontcourt or backcourt.
PENALTY (Section 2-12):
The ball shall become dead or remain dead when a violation occurs.
When the ball passes through a basket during the dead ball period
immediately after a violation, no point(s) can be scored. The ball
shall be awarded to the opponents for a throw-in at a designated spot
nearest to where the violation occurred.
 
When Buddy touches the ball with both feet in the front court the ball becomes in OU's front court. If you'll notice the official doesn't call the violation until Buddy steps into the backcourt, after touching it in the frontcourt, and dribbles the ball.
 
perryj74 said:
When Buddy touches the ball with both feet in the front court the ball becomes in OU's front court. If you'll notice the official doesn't call the violation until Buddy steps into the backcourt, after touching it in the frontcourt, and dribbles the ball.
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Yep.
 
perryj74 said:
You need to go back and watch it again without your crimson glasses. When I watched it live I thought the official blew the call. Cousins with two hands on the ball throws it off the leg of an Iowa State player.

If memory serves me chuckb is, or used to be, an official?

I found this and thought it might help http://www.longislandbasketball.com/AskTheRef52.html

QUESTION - I thought I had a good understanding of "over and back" in high school basketball. Here's my confusion about a call I've seen made a few times. Offensive player, A-1, with ball in back court throws to teammate, A-2, who is completely in front court. A-2 jumps and, while in the air, catches the ball and lands completely in the back court. Whistle blows....violation! I wouldn't think this to be the case because neither the ball nor a player with the ball was ever in the front court. Am I missing something here?

ANSWER - Yes, you are missing the same thing a lot of people are missing. It's the BALL, not the person, that we are focused on when we talk about "over and back" (more correctly, "back court violations"). Both the player(s) and the BALL have a "status" at all times but to sort this play out, you need to be concerned about the BALL. When player A-1 held the ball in the back court, the BALL had "back court status." It continued to have that status until it was touched by A-2 (who had "front court status" because he came from the front court). Once that ball is caught, or touched, by A-2, the status of the ball becomes the same as that of the player.....thus, the BALL has "front court status." When A-2 subsequently lands in back court, his status is "back court" and it is A-2 that is "deemed to have caused the BALL to go into the back court." It isn't much different than the play above, is it?
Click to expand...

Your Q/A is completely irrelevent
 
perryj74 said:
http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/BR17.pdf


Art. 3. A live ball is in the frontcourt or backcourt of the team in control as
follows:
a. A ball that is in contact with a player or with the playing court shall be
in the backcourt when either the ball or the player (either player when
the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt. It shall
be in the frontcourt when neither the ball nor the player is touching the
backcourt.
Click to expand...

to me this means that both the ball and the player have to be in the front court for "front court" status to happen
 
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